IMO: The JVC RS-1 is the Best 1080P at CES - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:17 AM
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The unit was NOT set to 100% out of the box color defaults. It was tweaked to D65 by the guys there with a little -2 +3 -1 (-ish) tweaks) ... not major changes, but it was not stock.

My comments on the sharpness are that it was sharper than I expected (I am sorry to say, but I expected not that much in this regard given my Pearl experiences). I really liked the sharpness as it added so much depth to the image, but after that dust settled, it wasn't as sharp as I am used to.

Jim
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post #182 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Jim - thanks for the review. As a previous Ruby owner I was very interested in reading your impressions to see how you thought the two compared.

Can you elaborate on how you feel the black level compares between the RS1 and Ruby? I know certainly the RS1 has bright white and no dynamic range compression, but I'm curious if you feel it also has better blacks in general and if so by how much?

Also can you elaborate on how you feel the RS1 and Ruby compare in sharpness and optics? I know you posted that the RS1 is very good to excellent in this category, but I'm not sure what your opinion is on your Ruby in this category so I'd like to hear your thoughts on how these two compare.

Lastly how did you feel about the fan noise of the RS1. I'm certain it is no where near as whisper quiet as the Ruby but curious if you still found it quite acceptable. Thanks.


I like the blacks on the Ruby. I do however think the DI on the Ruby, while assisting in dark scenes, compromises on the lighter areas within the scene (reducing brightness). I did not see that in the RS1. In evaluating (obviously subjective) the actual blacks, the RS1 does a "slightly" better job showing detail around blacks and between lighter shades (shadowing, etc.). Overall though, the difference in the two regarding blacks isn't significant.

Honestly difficult to properly evaluate sharpness/optics. I think both are excellent. Didn't have the benefit of a side-by-side, but I will next month when I get an RS1.

The RS1 is very quiet. I had to get my ear within 2 feet to hear it. Yes, the Ruby in low fan is quieter, but not by much. No problem at all. The heat venting forward was noticable however.

Jim
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post #183 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:27 AM
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So it sounds like the RS1 is sharper than the Pearl/Ruby for sure but not quiet as sharp as what the DLP gang is used to.

I hope it's close enough.
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post #184 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

The unit was NOT set to 100% out of the box color defaults. It was tweaked to D65 by the guys there with a little -2 +3 -1 (-ish) tweaks) ... not major changes, but it was not stock.

Perfect - thanks for clarifying this.

Quote:


My comments on the sharpness are that it was sharper than I expected (I am sorry to say, but I expected not that much in this regard given my Pearl experiences). I really liked the sharpness as it added so much depth to the image, but after that dust settled, it wasn't as sharp as I am used to.

I wonder how flat they had it at the top end. As mentioned earlier you can probably squeeze another 5-10% lumens and CR by running it a bit hot at the high end. But it may have already been set up that way we can cannot necessarily add another 5-10% to these numbers.
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post #185 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

The unit was NOT set to 100% out of the box color defaults. It was tweaked to D65 by the guys there with a little -2 +3 -1 (-ish) tweaks) ... not major changes, but it was not stock.

My comments on the sharpness are that it was sharper than I expected (I am sorry to say, but I expected not that much in this regard given my Pearl experiences). I really liked the sharpness as it added so much depth to the image, but after that dust settled, it wasn't as sharp as I am used to.

So that we have reference to compare your sharpness comments to - what pj(s) are you used to getting the very sharp image from?
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post #186 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

I really liked the sharpness as it added so much depth to the image, but after that dust settled, it wasn't as sharp as I am used to.

Sorry you lost me

Sharpness added depth, but in the end it's not as sharp as you would like? compared to ...


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post #187 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:52 AM
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Current daily used reference = BenQ PE8720 with and w/o and ISCO II lens.
At the show reference = Within 30 minutes comparison Sharp 20K at Sharp's demo with uncompressid pixel mapeed digital video.

Old references, AE100/700 SP4805, SP7205, Z4, Pearl

It is 80-90% there in sharpness, but it doesn't look like a DLP, just a VERY well set up image. It is crystal clear, not blurry at all. I don't mean to stir anything up, but I did want to mention it wasn't 100% super-sharp DLP w/ good optics "there".

Jim
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post #188 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

At the show reference = Within 30 minutes comparison Sharp 20K at Sharp's demo with uncompressid pixel mapeed digital video.

Old references, AE100/700 SP4805, SP7205, Z4, Pearl

It is 80-90% there in sharpness, but it doesn't look like a DLP, just a VERY well set up image. It is crystal clear, not blurry at all. I don't mean to stir anything up, but I did want to mention it wasn't 100% super-sharp DLP w/ good optics "there".

Anymore more comments on the JVC vs the Sharp... Fan noise, blacks, etc, based on what you saw at the show?


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post #189 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 12:00 PM
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Fan noise was not comparable as the Sharp was ceiling mounted in a "booth" that was just false walls with a lot of outside noise compared to the silent JVC room.

Given the source materials were different, I cannot compare them too much. Both looked wonderful, but the pixel mapped 20k was breathtaking with the snowboarding clip. I hadn't seen an image like that outside of Sim2 or DPI before. Blu-ray movie RV (Robin Williams) was shown as well and looked only so-so to me on the Sharp, but I have never seen the movie, so I don't know the quality of the source material.

Black levels can't be compared, as the JVC was in a white walled room with all sorts of disadvantages to the Sharp's batcave.

Jim
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post #190 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLT View Post

Anymore more comments on the JVC vs the Sharp... Fan noise, blacks, etc, based on what you saw at the show?

The JVC and the Sharp were shown side-by-side at the Expo and there is a ton of user comments on this demo in the prior Expo threads. I also responded about the differences in your other thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785485
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post #191 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

i wouldnt mind having 800+ ansi and that is CONSTANTLY (no iris !) at 7K which isnt "that" colder than D65. lol even the Japanese like cold projectors for maximum brigthness and contrast ratio (but i mean then 8500K)

a french mag (Nouvelle Revue du Son, problably the most accurate HT French mag) just reviewed the MIT 5000, H81, PEARL the MIT 5000 has only 800:1 native CR, the PEARL 2020 and the OPTOMA 1200 (2200:1 in auto). it's this reviewer that clocked the JVC HD1 at 13000:1 native !!!


JVC clearly thought rightly in working on the panels native contrast and lens system.

You can get over 700 lumens out of a Sony Pearl with a new bulb so I am not buying that this projector is not even as bright as the Pearl. All reports are to the contrary. Just be prepared to buy a new bulb a much more frequent rate to keep the brigthness up.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #192 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

The unit was NOT set to 100% out of the box color defaults. It was tweaked to D65 by the guys there with a little -2 +3 -1 (-ish) tweaks) ... not major changes, but it was not stock.

My comments on the sharpness are that it was sharper than I expected (I am sorry to say, but I expected not that much in this regard given my Pearl experiences). I really liked the sharpness as it added so much depth to the image, but after that dust settled, it wasn't as sharp as I am used to.

This is consistent with what I was told by the guys at the RS1 site. They showed me in the menu that they had made a very modest change in the Green and Blue colors, toning them down slightly, leaving the Red alone, in order to get it right at 6500K. So they did do a very minimal calibration from the 'out of the box' configuration, one that most all of us would also do.
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post #193 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

Isn't that strange, so am I

That's just what I was told by Tryg. I believe I ordered the morning after the announcement FWIW. No concern to me either way... I know I have to be early on the list.
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post #194 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I don't think you quoted him quite right. I think what he said was more along the lines of (and I am NOT quoting him verbatim):


That statement, though close to yours, is absolutely correct. No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY, so a single panel design will always be sharper. How much sharper? That part is debatable...

Another great post Bob. Every system has tolerances which you call errors. One, two or three pixel tolerances is substandard.
Here is what excellent design and quality control will do:
"Panel convergence was perfect...quite amazing"
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9413716

Here is what a lesser design, mediocre parts will do:
"PC use over HDMI at 1080p, not as good, here you see some limitations. It's focus motor via remote was not precise at all, it was very hard to get a good center focus, and when I did the corners were blurred and convergence / CA could be seen when looking up close. Just didnt see as crisp of a desktop as I expected. Still useable and more detailed than 720p but I felt a native 1080p projector could do better?"
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9407715

There is no real perfection: only close approximations.
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post #195 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 02:16 PM
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How does the Sim2 C3X match up to the JVC. Is old technology just as good as the new when you add a Algolith Dragon Fly or Lumagen to the C3X along with a Mosquito (noise reducer). Would the C3X put up a tough fight but be a clear loser in the dust. Maybe the folks in Athens could do another comparison. Thanks Greg
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post #196 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Young View Post

How does the Sim2 C3X match up to the JVC. Is old technology just as good as the new when you add a Algolith Dragon Fly or Lumagen to the C3X along with a Mosquito (noise reducer). Would the C3X put up a tough fight but be a clear loser in the dust. Maybe the folks in Athens could do another comparison. Thanks Greg

The Dragonfly is llikely a step down from the internal Gennum processing in the JVC, not because the HQV chipset is inferior to the VXP but the Algolith implementation has serious issues. The biggest of which is that it raises the black level to the point where it washes out the contrast in even a 2000:1 on/off projector like my HD2K. No amount of gamma or brightness/contrast adjustments will correct this problem. It may be a HDMI-DVI HW issue, I'm not sure but I've reported this problem to Algolith and it's never been addressed. I also found that it doesn't pass BTB or WTW even though Algolith claims this has been fixed. There are also countless other problems that I've flagged that have never been corrected.
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post #197 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 02:53 PM
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when you say it does not have an anamorphic stretch, do you mean it does not have a letterbox mode which vertically fills the blackened pixels and then you stretch with an anamorphic prism


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post #198 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 03:04 PM
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Yes, the unit I viewed (and confirmed with the JVC crew) does not do the scaling needed to use a 1.33x anamorphic lens.

They have requested it be added, but it is likely that we are just too late in the game to add it.

I'll be happy if it does, but I don't expect it.

Jim
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post #199 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 03:07 PM
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I want to echo several of the posts...

As much as the Pearl was -- to me -- a category redefining breakthough of the first magnitude, so is the JVC.

It's MSRP is higher than Pearl and so it's street price will be and there is certainly something to be said for buying Sony if you are comfortable with their deep, nationwide infrastructure, brand, etc.

If you are a typical AVSer and videophile and can muster the extra ~$1000 (compable types of dealers, insert your marginal cost here), the JVC seems to be as close to a no compromises projector as you can get at any price. There is brighter to be had for more money and therefore larger screen sizes, but the fact you can buy this, or the Optoma, or the Pearl for $6000 or less... wow.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #200 of 315 Old 01-11-2007, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

[...]

a french mag (Nouvelle Revue du Son, problably the most accurate HT French mag) just reviewed the MIT 5000, H81, PEARL the MIT 5000 has only 800:1 native CR, the PEARL 2020 and the OPTOMA 1200 (2200:1 in auto). it's this reviewer that clocked the JVC HD1 at 13000:1 native !!!

[...].

Hi,

you seems "aware" about french mag

and 450 lumens in normal mode or 700 lumens in high mode.

When I read the CR here, these figures seems logical. (14 fL on 96 " width screen or another..........) but I'm not sure we have information about long throw or short throw in this case.

I'm not sure about the "native" contrast, at 13 000 : 1 . It's seems it was in high mode at 8 500°K, but we haven't another informations.
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post #201 of 315 Old 01-12-2007, 11:26 PM
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Hi

I also just returned from the CES and saw demonstrations of the JVC HD1 and RS1. To my eye- these were the top projectors at the show.

In my discussion of the JVC and Sony Ruby demonstrations I included some comments on the Black uniformity in the upstairs RS1 suite that I think may not have been reported here in this thread.

My comments on this black uniformity may be of interest to some of you ordering either of these projectors.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post9446626

KT
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post #202 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 12:59 AM
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So from what everyone is saying here - the new JVC's were the best projector in show at CES but their disputed lumen output is, with essentially new bulbs, only 500 to 700 lumens?

Now unless I am mistaken isn't this the general lumen range of the Ruby (last years "winner"), which after much debate, was determined to be maybe a little on the low side? And it only got worse as the bulb lost output over time. And the bulbs cost $1000. How much is the JVC's bulb that should be changed at 1000 or so hours to avoid dramatic, unacceptable lumen loss? And doesn't this lumen range preclude having more than a candle on in the room while viewing sporting events - i.e. it needs to be used in a dark cave?

Excuse me for bringing up these old Ruby'ish issues again but while this may be a "better" projector it still lacks in the critical lumen area so to compensate you will need a dark cave and/or a smaller screen and/or a special screen.

When will this group ever get the guts to tell these manufacturers NO THANK YOU - we want more lumens along with the increased CR and higher rez. But no, you guys are falling all over yourselves getting this years version of the Ruby from JVC and you will likely be using it on a smallish six to seven foot screen.

Yeah, pardon my interruption once again for trying to bring some perspective to this lovey-dovey JVC party.

VOTE NO!!!!! - with your dollars and buy nothing for what appears to be little more than an incremental Ruby upgrade or for those with the big bucks buy the 9 foot LCD panel* shown at CES. In other words you can now get a giant LCD TV set that produces a bigger, brighter picture than this "hot" new JVC, any of the Sony SXRD's, and any of the single and possibly triple DLP's too. (Excluding commercial units)

*The 108" LCD screen "TV Set" was announced by Sharp at CES 2007
and it has 15,000 Dynamic CR - signalling potential death blow to projectors.

The handwriting may be on the wall. If the projector manufacturers cannot do big and bright real soon the LCD panels (or mabe something else) will soon displace our beloved projectors and all this fervor over the JVC (and six months from now something else) will be for nought. And you guys will have blown all this money (nearly every year) for next to nothing sucking up to these projector guys who really aren't getting it right.

Icon Master

P.S. Yeah, sure - the thing will cost an arm and a leg but more competitors will jump in and before you know it these will be a cheap as projectors without the need for dark caves, offset issues, noise, cooling, filters, rainbows and lights out.

Get perspective guys and stop being suckers for each next little thing that pops off of these projector manufacturers assembly line.
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post #203 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 01:45 AM
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Not bad points. As I was passing you on the way back to the blender and my lost shaker of salt, though, I thought of a couple of things to add for consideration. There are projectors that will do what you describe...for much bigger bucks. DP has got some really nice, very bright projectors going now that they had at CES, but they are really pricey by comparison. We need those mid-level priced machines that aren't necessarily light canons. They occupy an appropriate place in the front projector sector. It seems to me that the Ruby, Pearl, and new JVCs represent an evolution of mid-to-upper level machines. There will continue to be a strong lower/entry level end, elite upper end, and the mid-level machines. We are just lucky that the quality of the mid-level machines is improving so nicely. As people replace aging projectors or move up from the entry level, mid-level demand and competiton will continue. Hopefully, the ash tray won't be full by next year at this time, but if it is, some people will get nice used machines as mid-level achievement by manufacturers (albeit incremental) will be rewarded with new purchases.
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post #204 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

*The 108" LCD screen "TV Set" was announced by Sharp at CES 2007
and it has 15,000 Dynamic CR - signalling potential death blow to projectors.

Very bright monitors with 15000:1 On-Off have gray blacks. No thanks. Apart from contrast colors and motion must be top too. And no visible SDE. So if this LCD has correct colors, no SDE, much higher On-Off and fast response time I'm interested.
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post #205 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

When will this group ever get the guts to tell these manufacturers NO THANK YOU - we want more lumens along with the increased CR and higher rez. But no, you guys are falling all over yourselves getting this years version of the Ruby from JVC and you will likely be using it on a smallish six to seven foot screen.

Probably because the majority of people posting here enjoy watching movies in a dark room. I've become used to it in my 40+ years of movie going and I prefer it in my home theater too. So I will say YES ,THANK YOU, to the manufacturers and suggest to people who need light cannons because they want to read or do any number of things other than watch the movie while it plays that there are already expensive options out there for you. There's no need to make this hobby prohibitively expensive for everyone else just to accommodate you.

Quote:
VOTE NO!!!!! - with your dollars and buy nothing for what appears to be little more than an incremental Ruby upgrade or for those with the big bucks buy the 9 foot LCD panel* shown at CES. In other words you can now get a giant LCD TV set that produces a bigger, brighter picture than this "hot" new JVC, any of the Sony SXRD's, and any of the single and possibly triple DLP's too. (Excluding commercial units)

VOTE YES!! with your dollars because life is just too damn short. You are going to be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum who might be willing to defer their projector purchases for an unspecified length of time to make some sort of nebulous "statement" to the manufacturers. People here judge value differently and the degree of improvement needed to trigger the purchase of a follow-on product will vary from person to person. I think what you've stated is fine as far as your own personal values go (emphasis on high lumens and contrast), but it is unreasonable to ask that everyone else to adopt your value system. It simply will not happen.

Quote:
The 108" LCD screen "TV Set" was announced by Sharp at CES 2007 and it has 15,000 Dynamic CR - signalling potential death blow to projectors.

So what if it does? Not that I think it will happen but who is to say that the future of large screen home video presentation must lie in the hands of front projection? For me projection is a means to an end. I am more concerned with what is on the screen than how it gets there. Maybe one day we will have flexible roll-up display devices that you unroll and hang in a frame on the wall that will far exceed the performance of any front projector ever made. I would hate to limit how the creators of these technologies can innovate. I think over the years they have done rather well to get us where we are at.

Quote:
Get perspective guys and stop being suckers for each next little thing that pops off of these projector manufacturers assembly line.

It is the "suckers" to whom you refer that fuel innovation with their purchase $$ and justify the R&D costs for the manufacturers. This makes it possible for everyone -- even you -- to benefit. Without this devoted group of consumers there would be no front projectors for you to buy. It's much more difficult to make ground-breaking innovations in technology than you realize.

--Jerome
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post #206 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jsaliga View Post

Probably because the majority of people posting here enjoy watching movies in a dark room. ... There's no need to make this hobby prohibitively expensive for everyone else just to accommodate you.

VOTE YES!! with your dollars because life is just too damn short.

It is the "suckers" to whom you refer that fuel innovation with their purchase $$ and justify the R&D costs for the manufacturers. ... It's much more difficult to make ground-breaking innovations in technology than you realize.

--Jerome

Jerome,

I just wanted to say that you echoed my thoughts precisely!

If I had Icon Master's attitude I would still be walking while waiting on my flying car!


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post #207 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post


*The 108" LCD screen "TV Set" was announced by Sharp at CES 2007
and it has 15,000 Dynamic CR - signalling potential death blow to projectors.

The handwriting may be on the wall. If the projector manufacturers cannot do big and bright real soon the LCD panels (or mabe something else) will soon displace our beloved projectors and all this fervor over the JVC (and six months from now something else) will be for nought. And you guys will have blown all this money (nearly every year) for next to nothing sucking up to these projector guys who really aren't getting it right.
...
Get perspective guys and stop being suckers for each next little thing that pops off of these projector manufacturers assembly line.

Isn't this like saying "don't have sex w/ your wife/gf unless/until she agrees to go down on you"?

the 65" sharp aquos is 7-8000 street. The 100" is probably if-you-gotta-ask-you-can't-afford-it territory.

PJs are here and now and relatively affordable.
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post #208 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 10:16 AM
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Iconmaster,

This thread was started by a typical "If you don't want what I want, you're not thinking straight." This JVC projector is EXACTLY what I want, thank you very much.

I'm thinking plenty straight... new construction, carefully designed dedicated 16' by 21' batcave. And remember... not everyone is a sports fan. I couldn't care less about watching football on my home theater. I want CR and ambient light is the enemy. I'm even thinking of having a dress code! No white T-shirts. And, try not to smile too much, it screws up the CR. :-)
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post #209 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 10:43 AM
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Until these lazy manufacturers get off their arses and build us Star Trek holodecks for under $1000, I say we VOTE NO!!! Stop being dim-witted SUCKERS! Who's with me?! WHO'S WITH ME?!! Uh...hello? Anyone? Bueller???

Oh Icon Master, you zany guy you... People aren't "suckers" for wanting to buy the best product available in their price range, even if it may not be perfect by your standards. You seem dissatisfied that we now have a projector that performs significantly better than last year's sweet heart, at half the price. Imagine that price/performance trend in cars for a moment. Go ahead, I'll wait.......

Back now? Great, let's continue.

6 or 7 foot screens? Puh-lease. I don't recall anyone who is planning on using a screen that small with their JVC, unless their room doesn't have space for anything larger. Most seem to be planning on at least 108", which apparently is the Perfect and Blameless Size.

"Blown all this money (nearly every year) for next to nothing..." I suppose some folks buy a new projector every year, but not the majority of us. And we don't get next to nothing for those dollars, we get thousands of hours of entertainment and enjoyment. And we're not sucking up to anyone. I'm just trading my hard earned US tender for a product that I want. No sucking whatsoever involved is in the transaction, honest.

Now, about this Perfect and Blameless LCD you mention...can I make it disappear into the ceiling when I don't want it? If a kid scratches it, can I replace the screen material for a few hundred bucks, without having to replace the other electronic goodies behind the screen? Can I drop it in a case and carry it with me elsewhere as needed? Can I buy it for $5k, now?

He who has mastered icons, would you care to wager that we will see a sub-$5k, 2,000 lumen, 15,000 CR projector, before we see a 108" LCD or Plasma that meets those criteria?
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post #210 of 315 Old 01-13-2007, 11:00 AM
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That was an excellent response to Icon Master's post Jerome!
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