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post #121 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:12 AM
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As Jason said there is difficult to really tell 13000:1 from 18000:1 with real pictures. I guess it is the same with 720 or 615 ANSI lumen. The bigger problem with lamp projectors is that the lamps lose brightness as they age. This is a more important consideration when deciding upon screen size and gain. Aged lamps will eventuallly lose upto about 50 percent of their initial brightness.

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post #122 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:20 AM
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Always trade offs. No VGA input? Almost a deal breaker for me anymore. I guess if you have an external scaler it could have VGA input and get the video to the screen via the HDMI?

Alas, I have finally made my choice and just placed the order, I did hold out for more real world impressions on this one, I just neglacted to notice the no VGA input thing.
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post #123 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:22 AM
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Hate to show my ignorance but what does the VGA input give you that HDMI with an adapter does not?
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post #124 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

As Jason said there is difficult to really tell 13000:1 from 18000:1 with real pictures. I guess it is the same with 720 or 615 ANSI lumen. The bigger problem with lamp projectors is that the lamps lose brightness as they age. This is a more important consideration when deciding upon screen size and gain. Aged lamps will eventuallly lose upto about 50 percent of their initial brightness.


I agree with you Ohlson and the differences are not that big, but there is enough of a difference to ask why? If Jasons unit had hours on the bulb allready, that could explain the difference. If not, then there is some other reason (different machine, different measuring tech, different room, etc....) for the measured lumen difference. It is just a bit puzzling to me as the 3-4 C4H units all measured higher, and even the 2 user UK reports measured very close to the C4H measurements. I am just trying to understand the inconsistency.

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post #125 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:28 AM
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Why would Jason's unit have any hours on the bulb? It was brand new, out of the box, and he did his measurements the same day. The QC certainly wouldn't add any significant time to the bulb.
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post #126 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:29 AM
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Reply to weatherby:
Direct input from legacy sources. (my Laptops and possibly an Xbox 360 is in my future) My OTA HD STB has an output that I have been using as well.
In the past I would not have given it a second thought, but I have been using my VGA input more and more lately it seems. It would be inconvenient as heck for me right now to not have it.
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post #127 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Where are you getting 615?

While still low compared to C4H (720), Jason got 632 D65-short distance.

What's perhaps more relevant are the numbers (at max zoom = min throw) at D65 in Normal (low) lamp mode: Cine4home has 600 L, and Jason 531.
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post #128 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Why would Jason's unit have any hours on the bulb? It was brand new, out of the box, and he did his measurements the same day. The QC certainly wouldn't add any significant time to the bulb.


Agreed, and it probably did not have any hours on the bulb, but if it did, that would explain the lumen difference easily.

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post #129 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Always trade offs. No VGA input? Almost a deal breaker for me anymore. I guess if you have an external scaler it could have VGA input and get the video to the screen via the HDMI?

Alas, I have finally made my choice and just placed the order, I did hold out for more real world impressions on this one, I just neglacted to notice the no VGA input thing.

The RS1 will accept RGB (sync on green) on the RCA inputs. Analog inputs will be a difficulty in the future due to HDCP issues.

On another issue, lumen readings. There can be significant variations in luminance readings from the same image with different meters. The only way to compare is to use the same meter.

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post #130 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Why would Jason's unit have any hours on the bulb? It was brand new, out of the box, and he did his measurements the same day. The QC certainly wouldn't add any significant time to the bulb.


Jason was clear on that, brand new production unit unpicked.
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post #131 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:20 AM
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Jason, if you have any extra time would you please look to see if you can see any dithering noise. I've become very sensitive to dithering noise and since JVC switched from analog drive to digital drive, I'm concerned that they might now have dithering noise that they never had before.
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post #132 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Reply to weatherby:
Direct input from legacy sources. (my Laptops and possibly an Xbox 360 is in my future) My OTA HD STB has an output that I have been using as well.
In the past I would not have given it a second thought, but I have been using my VGA input more and more lately it seems. It would be inconvenient as heck for me right now to not have it.

To manage all these you will need an external scaler.
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post #133 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

What's perhaps more relevant are the numbers (at max zoom = min throw) at D65 in Normal (low) lamp mode: Cine4home has 600 L, and Jason 531.

The delta is 10%. This is probably within the typical lamp production tolerance and meter telerance.
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post #134 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I am surprised that nobody has said anything about how good the shading was on this unit per Jasons review.

One disappointment that I have is that it does appear that the other reports of fan noise being on the loud side in high brightness mode are accurate.

I noticed! (post #99): "Very happy to see Jason thought the uniformity was near perfect!"

Yep - looks like high-brightness mode is a no go for me too due to elevated fan noise... (which I can live with)
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post #135 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:32 AM
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Mac the knife
HD1 uses digital control the display show a brightness that can be anywhere from off to on. It is not like dlp with digital drive and digital display.

HD1: Digital drive but "continous" display
DLP: Digital drive and digital display , on OR off

If you see something from the digital drive in HD1 I do not think it should be called dithering issues.

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post #136 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:35 AM
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[quote=RonF]From what we've read you might not want to go to the max throw if physically not required, in search of quiet on a widely reported "quiet" unit with the normal bulb setting. It was also stated recently in one of the threads that better lens abberation performance would be realized by staying away from absolute minimum & max throws, plus you get the added lumens. And as Jason said, he was virtually unable to see difference in blacks between the max CR readings and 14K.
QUOTE]

I could go w/ a shorter throw - but really prefer the projector at the very back of the room behind my 2 rows. Gives me more of a movie theater "feel." I just don't like it above my head. But I'll do some testing. If the performance is that much better - I may move it forward.
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post #137 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 10:47 AM
 
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[quote=Ohlson]As Jason said there is difficult to really tell 13000:1 from 18000:1 with real pictures.

This is something I've wondered about. If this is the case, then why is it that Art can easily see a difference in black level with his G90s? What is the actual measured on/off contrast ratio of the G90s? I know they are capable of extremely high CRs, but what are they in the theater.

The other thing I don't understand is that most movies are not just one long dark scene. They are constantly changing from daylight and night or dark and light. It takes quite a while for your eyes to adjust to see anything in a dark room with just an led glowing, but people worry about a single led causing loss of contrast ratio. Unless you are watching a prolonged dark movie with no bright scenes to kill your night vision, then why does this affect what you see?
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post #138 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 11:10 AM
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Jason:

Regarding your review of the RS-1, you stated that:

Quote:


The unit is capable of excellent sharpness. In fact, this is by far the sharpest projector in this general technology class (DILA, LCOS, SXRD, and LCD). I do find that DLP still has a tad of an edge in this regard, but not by much anymore and the gap I'm sure will close with future versions of this.



I'm curious as to your meaning. I recently replaced my Qualia with an interim Pearl, at least until the RS-1 was available (and you know I've emailed you about that, but I'll wait until the projectors are more generally available, and be back to you). In any case, sharpness was one of the large lossess from the Qualia to the Pearl, and I've attributed this to lens quality. Are you including the Qualia in your statement regarding the RS-1 being the "sharpest" in this class? Or did you mean projectors of a lower price point? If the RS-1 can rival the sharpness of the Qualia, it would be a huge feat--and a large improvement over the Pearl.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #139 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 11:46 AM
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"The delta is 10%. This is probably within the typical lamp production tolerance and meter telerance."

This new lamp may be different, but I believe normal brightness tolerance on UHP lamps is +/-20%, so there's no point in getting worked up about testers' measurement variations.

Noah
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post #140 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 12:16 PM
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Nick - I haven't seen the Qualia but I had a Ruby for a year. Although I was very happy with the Ruby I felt it was quite soft (and mine had excellent convergence to boot!). This was my primary motivator for looking elsewhere.

At any rate I have seen the RS1 first hand and can tell you that it is MUCH sharper than the Ruby, and has a razor sharp look like an excellent DLP. My Sharp 10K was significantly sharper than the Ruby, and I can tell you for certain the RS1 I saw was much sharper than my 10K.
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post #141 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 12:19 PM
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Question about fan speed.
I know that when you activate the High Altitude Mode the fan on the RS1 kicks up a notch. Is that also the case when you select High on the Lamp Power?
I've heard the difference in fan noise when the High Altitude mode is turned on, but I didn't know if the fan reved up even higher when the High Lamp Mode is engaged.
Jason?

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post #142 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:02 PM
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I'm not sure where to put this because there are so many RS-1 threads. But here are a couple of tips for setting up your system when the RS-1's start to be delivered.

#1 When sending HD digital signals (720p, 1080i, 1080p) to the RS-1, i.e. using its HDMI inputs, use digital YCbCr signals and not digital RGB signals (i.e. from a DVI output) to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 601/Rec 709 matrices).

#2 When sending SD analog signals (480i/p, 576i/p) to the RS-1, use YPbPr signals and not RGB signals to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 709/Rec 601 matrices).

#3 Be sure to adjust the Color control with test patterns when using analog YPbPr signals to avoid over saturation.

I've informed JVC of these issues and they are working to correct them.

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post #143 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I'm not sure where to put this because there are so many RS-1 threads. But here are a couple of tips for setting up your system when the RS-1's start to be delivered.

#1 When sending HD digital signals (720p, 1080i, 1080p) to the RS-1, i.e. using its HDMI inputs, use digital YCbCr signals and not digital RGB signals (i.e. from a DVI output) to avoid color matrix conversion errors.

#2 When sending SD analog signals (480i/p, 576i/p) to the RS-1, use YPbPr signals and not RGB signals to avoid color matrix conversion errors.

Greg - this sounds like the RS1 is doing an RGB->Component->RGB conversion internally, if I am understanding you correctly. I assume we want 4:4:4, rather than 4:2:2, given the CUE that Ekkehart and team found on C4H?

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post #144 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:11 PM
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Quote:


At any rate I have seen the RS1 first hand and can tell you that it is MUCH sharper than the Ruby, and has a razor sharp look like an excellent DLP. My Sharp 10K was significantly sharper than the Ruby, and I can tell you for certain the RS1 I saw was much sharper than my 10K.

It would be interesting to see how the RS1 compared sharpness wise to my dVision1080p.

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post #145 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Greg for the tips! I too noticed a bit of oversaturation myself that I had to adjust.

Remember everyone, every projector will vary, in addition to test environments, gear, etc... I would suspect Greg's review will vary somewhat from both Cine4home and myself. I know in my testing of Pearls (which I have done a lot), they have varied quite a bit when it comes to brightness.

Hours were at about 24 as I recall.
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post #146 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithsimp View Post

Question about fan speed.
I know that when you activate the High Altitude Mode the fan on the RS1 kicks up a notch. Is that also the case when you select High on the Lamp Power?
I've heard the difference in fan noise when the High Altitude mode is turned on, but I didn't know if the fan reved up even higher when the High Lamp Mode is engaged.
Jason?

Yes Hi Mode and Hi Altitude both kick up the fan. However, I did not try them combined to see if it went up even more.
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post #147 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Greg - this sounds like the RS1 is doing an RGB->Component->RGB conversion internally, if I am understanding you correctly.

Yes, because processing is done with YCbCr signals.

Quote:


I assume we want 4:4:4, rather than 4:2:2, given the CUE that Ekkehart and team found on C4H?

I'll leave that for later discussion.

Greg Rogers
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post #148 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

What's perhaps more relevant are the numbers (at max zoom = min throw) at D65 in Normal (low) lamp mode: Cine4home has 600 L, and Jason 531.

Were both tests done at exactly D65? Probably not. If not, I'd think this would account for a noticable diffence in itself.
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post #149 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a good point as well. I know mine was close, but a bit under (~6300k) so that could account for some of it.
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post #150 of 267 Old 03-01-2007, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

why is it that Art can easily see a difference in black level with his G90s? What is the actual measured on/off contrast ratio of the G90s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Darinp believes that with low end gamma manipulation you get around 700,000:1.

Art

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Darin's Article

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