JVC DLA-RS1 Owner's Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 01:56 PM
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The good news is that there isn't a single dead pixel on any of the 3 panels. This in itself is pretty remarkable. Even my HD2K had 2 dead blue pixels.

The bad news is the blue panel has a strange issue that I've never seen before. It's not a typical shading problem but something going on in the manufacturing process. For want of a better term I'm calling it a "watermark" because it looks like some sort of a meandering pattern left by a lliquid residue in the manufacturing process. There are three of these on the blue panel (and only on the blue panel), the largest is about 1 foot in size on a 110" 16x9 screen. I'll have to post a photo of it as it's hard to describe. It looks like a meandering rivulet with parallel lines that randomly meander across the panel. The third is a perfect rectangle which may be a mark left by a wafer holder. This isn't something that can be corrected for via shading. The green and red panels don't have this at all it's only on the blue panel. The contrast of the watermark isn't enough to where it is noticeable from a 1.0xW seating position even with only a blue field. With a full white field it's completely hidden. It's not a dust blob because it's darker on the edges and normal brightness in the middle.

Fwiw, I believe that JVC uses a screening process on panels and the best grades are used in green and red and the lower grade that still passes QC is used in the blue so it's worth checking the blue panel over carefully.

As far as true uniformity goes. It's not on a par with my Phelpsed HD2K. As far as OTB uniformity it's good though. If I work at it, I can barely make out some brightness variation with a full white TP but no color shifts. A light sensor shows a lot of variation. If it were an option I would be sending my unit to Wm to be shaded.


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post #362 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post


MC on my unit is not very good. I have a full pixel of vertical red off to the right on the right side which gradually goes to about 1/4 pixel off to the left on the left side. As a result a 1 pixel shift does nothing but move the problem to the other side of the screen, so it is not correctable. My Ruby is better than that.

I need help in understanding this. How can MC be off (red) a full pixel to the right on the right side of the screen, but be off 1/4 to the left on the left side of the screen? I am trying to understand how this is physically possible as I line up 3 panels in my head! I do understand what Bob is saying about it not being correctable, as the adjustment is in full pixel increments, so it would make the left side off by 1 1/4 pixels instead of just 1 on the right side (but then the right side would theoretically be perfect, right?).


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post #363 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 01:58 PM
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Would love to join as well I live in Coppell

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post #364 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

...The bad news is the blue panel has a strange issue that I've never seen before....
.

How bad is this? Is this something that warrants sending your PJ back?
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post #365 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:06 PM
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I also checked the lumens. Normally I use my HTPC for outputting test patterns but I need to get a DVI-HDMI pigtail adapter to hook it up. So I'm using the internal full white test pattern on the VP50 to generate my white field. This white field isn't affected by the contrast setting so I'm not sure what it's outputting.

Here are my readings in fc from left to right, top to bottom:
12.1 14.4 13.2
13.7 16.0 14.4
12.8 16.0 13.9

Using the peak 16.0 fc yeilds 576 lumens in high bulb setting.
Normal bulb setting yields 489 peak lumens. This is with a long throw of about 19' onto a 110" 16x9.

This is brighter than what I expect based on subjective viewing (it doesn't seem that bright). So it might be related to using the VP50 as a full white test pattern so this is preliminary and please take this with a grain of salt.

Also, these were measured with only 2 hrs on the bulb.

MC is very good with the bottom right blue being off by about 1/2 pixel after adjustment.


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post #366 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The good news is that there isn't a single dead pixel on any of the 3 panels. This in itself is pretty remarkable. Even my HD2K had 2 dead blue pixels.

Interesting that you consider no dead panels good news. I thought that was pretty close to a given.

Quote:


The bad news is the blue panel has a strange issue that I've never seen before. It's not a typical shading problem but something going on in the manufacturing process. For want of a better term I'm calling it a "watermark" because it looks like some sort of a meandering pattern left by a lliquid residue in the manufacturing process. There are three of these on the blue panel (and only on the blue panel), the largest is about 1 foot in size on a 110" 16x9 screen. I'll have to post a photo of it as it's hard to describe. It looks like a meandering rivulet with parallel lines that randomly meander across the panel. The third is a perfect rectangle which may be a mark left by a wafer holder. This isn't something that can be corrected for via shading. The green and red panels don't have this at all it's only on the blue panel. The contrast of the watermark isn't enough to where it is noticeable from a 1.0xW seating position even with only a blue field. With a full white field it's completely hidden. It's not a dust blob because it's darker on the edges and normal brightness in the middle.

You described two of them, what does the other one look like?

If you can't see it on the blue panel (on a blue screen) at 1.0 screen widths, I assume that this would not have an impact on actual viewing either? Or do you believe that it does?


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As far as true uniformity goes. It's not on a par with my Phelpsed HD2K. As far as OTB uniformity it's good though. If I work at it, I can barely make out some brightness variation with a full white TP but no color shifts. A light sensor shows a lot of variation. If it were an option I would be sending my unit to Wm to be shaded.

Sounds pretty decent to me. I don't think anyone thought it would be as good as a full blown "Phelpsed" unit!


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post #367 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The bad news is the blue panel has a strange issue that I've never seen before. It's not a typical shading problem but something going on in the manufacturing process. For want of a better term I'm calling it a "watermark" because it looks like some sort of a meandering pattern left by a lliquid residue in the manufacturing process. There are three of these on the blue panel (and only on the blue panel), the largest is about 1 foot in size on a 110" 16x9 screen. I'll have to post a photo of it as it's hard to describe. It looks like a meandering rivulet with parallel lines that randomly meander across the panel. The third is a perfect rectangle which may be a mark left by a wafer holder. This isn't something that can be corrected for via shading. The green and red panels don't have this at all it's only on the blue panel. The contrast of the watermark isn't enough to where it is noticeable from a 1.0xW seating position even with only a blue field. With a full white field it's completely hidden. It's not a dust blob because it's darker on the edges and normal brightness in the middle.

Fwiw, I believe that JVC uses a screening process on panels and the best grades are used in green and red and the lower grade that still passes QC is used in the blue so it's worth checking the blue panel over carefully.

So - is this "watermark" noticeable w/ regular program material - or only on test patterns?

Shading sounds pretty good to me too (considering).
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post #368 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lem View Post

How bad is this? Is this something that warrants sending your PJ back?

I'm going to give it careful consideration. If it stood out enough to be noticeable with only a blue field from 1.0x width seating distance I would definitely return it. But the contrast is low enough, even on the darker edges that it isn't that noticeable. At first I thought it was something on the screen itself. In fact I thought my housekeeper had sprayed and wiped down my Stewart screen . I had to hold a white paper up in front of the panel to convince myself that it was in the panel.


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post #369 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:14 PM
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So - is this "watermark" noticeable w/ regular program material - or only on test patterns?

How is your convergence? (1/4 or 1/2 or ? pixel off)

Yes, same question on the "watermark." Hopefully its something that will disappear over time, with a few hours more worth of usage, but is it noticeable in a fade to black or starfield scene, or a brightly lit scene, or just in test patterns at less than 1 screen widths (even though that would probably still bother me too .. but if it was that excellent in convergence like you state I might keep it if I didnt see it at any other time but test patterns.)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #370 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Interesting that you consider no dead panels good news. I thought that was pretty close to a given.

It's tough to manufacture something with that many pixels (6 million) and not have even one be dead.


Quote:


You described two of them, what does the other one look like?

Two of the watermarks look like meandering rivulets. The third is a perfect rectangle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

So - is this "watermark" noticeable w/ regular program material - or only on test patterns?

Only with a full blue field. It can't be seen with regular video or even with a white field.


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post #371 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

.......I had a Pearl prior to this, and there is no contest. It handily beats the Samsung H710AE, which I loved, and the Sim C3X (which I almost bought).

beats the Sim C3X...
Really?

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post #372 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:22 PM
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Mark,
With all pixels perfect, darn nice convergence, decent shading and corner brightness not much of a problem - I think I could live w/ the weird little blue panel watermark defect - so long as it wasn't noticeable w/ regular program material. (I'm a nervous wreck until I get my unit)
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post #373 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:24 PM
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Yeah, if you dont like it .. Ill take it and swap my spot on the next wave with you. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #374 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Yes, same question on the "watermark." Hopefully its something that will disappear over time, with a few hours more worth of usage, but is it noticeable in a fade to black or starfield scene, or a brightly lit scene, or just in test patterns at less than 1 screen widths (even though that would probably still bother me too .. but if it was that excellent in convergence like you state I might keep it if I didnt see it at any other time but test patterns.)

It can't be seen except with a blue TP and presumably a bright blue TP. Star fields and fade to blacks are awesome. The convergence and sharpness are good on this unit so I would hate to return it and get another unit that didn't have "watermarks" but instead had MC,CA less brightness or contrast. If it were the price of a Qualia or HD2K though it would be going back and I would continue to ask for new units until I got one where the QC was perfect. At this price point though the QC on this unit with the sole exception of the blue panel "watermarks" has exceeded my expectations.


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post #375 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GlenC
BTW, everyone is viewing/evaluating screen shots with properly calibrated monitors, that have the proper color space, right? And of course, it goes without question, everyone taking a screen shot has the proper white balance set in the camera.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is funny as LCD computer monitors use 1:1 mapping as their default (at their native resolution). In fact the bandwidth (frequency response/sharpness) approaches perfection. Which is why the entire world is now using them for extended periods and without headaches
Front Projectors magnify the image greatly (120" / 0.65") = 184. Here even small errors become significant. Large quality lens are expensive. Add in three panels with their alignment errors and anyone can see why front projectors are at a disadvantage. Large flat panels have a constant error of less than 1/3 pixel.
They latest 52" panels from Sony and Sharp have great "pop" if setup correctly. Their color spectrum is very wide but no more inaccurate than front projectors.

The JVC RS1 does set itself apart from every other technology with its 15,000 static contrast ratio. Digital camera capture images with very deep color depth (14-16 bits) in their RAW mode. Gross differences in color are apparent on any quality 8 bit LCD display.

This text was posted using a 62 series Sharp 52" 1080p monitor from 12" away!
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post #376 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

It's tough to manufacture something with that many pixels (6 million) and not have even one be dead.

Good point. I just don't recall dead pixels being much of an issue with any pj recently.


Quote:


Only with a full blue field. It can't be seen with regular video or even with a white field.

So you would not have noticed this unless you were specifically examining only the blue panel at closer than 1.0 screen widths, correct?

Any subjective review of the actual PQ?


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post #377 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

Mark,
With all pixels perfect, darn nice convergence, decent shading and corner brightness not much of a problem - I think I could live w/ the weird little blue panel watermark defect - so long as it wasn't noticeable w/ regular program material.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too.

Quote:


(I'm a nervous wreck until I get my unit)

I was too lol. When I first plugged it in and fired it up I didn't hold the power button quite long enough and it didn't light. I thought to myself, "oh great a DOA projector!". I could feel the blood pressure start to rise lol. I think it took some mileage off of my ticker.


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post #378 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:35 PM
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Sorry if someone has already asked...but with a few units already delivered and a few of them having a couple minor issues...I wonder just what it is JVC USA is looking at/for when they qc these units? Do all the units go through qc states-side or is JVC randomly selecting them?

I'm in the 2nd wave(hopefully) so I hope the problems don't get worse...or more severe
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post #379 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:35 PM
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Can someone please post a link to the thread here on AVS where Tom Norton chimed in with us to discuss his preliminary review of the RS1? I searched for it but couldn't find it. Thanks.
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post #380 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

So you would not have noticed this unless you were specifically examining only the blue panel at closer than 1.0 screen widths, correct?

Correct. I only saw it when looking for dead pixels and putting up R, G and then B patterns. I was focused on looking for black pixels and could have easily have missed the pattern and at first I thought it was something on the screen.

Quote:


Any subjective review of the actual PQ?

It's fantastic. I'm really happy with it. Colors are a little oversaturated but not in a bad way. It hasn't been D65 calibrated yet but to my eyes it looks really good. Very vibrant, great 3d. I have to agree with Cam Man that this is the most filmlike projector I've ever seen. It doesn't seem digital in any way. Picture the best 70mm movie you've seen in the theater and this exceeds it on a 110" screen. I'm a resolution hound and I can see fine detail on this that the earlier JVC panels used to hide. The depth in dark scenes is outstanding and this was my biggest reason for upgrading.

Okay I'm going back to watch some more stuff


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post #381 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

I was too lol. When I first plugged it in and fired it up I didn't hold the power button quite long enough and it didn't light. I thought to myself, "oh great a DOA projector!". I could feel the blood pressure start to rise lol. I think it took some mileage off of my ticker.

LOL. I'll have to keep this post in mind so the same thing doesn't happen to me.

Thanks for the informative posts buddy. I'm sorry to read about the "watermark" issue. I'm glad to read that everything else looks good.

You watch a Donnie Yen movie to watch what Donnie does best - kick-ass!
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post #382 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Interesting that you consider no dead panels good news. I thought that was pretty close to a given.

With respect to dead pixels, not according to JVC. "Please be aware that, because the D-ILA device is manufactured using highly advanced technologies, 0.01% or fewer of the pixels may be non-performing (always on or off)". 0.01% works out to 207 pixels (or, worse yet, 622 if that spec is per-panel) in a 1920*1080 panel.

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post #383 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pdoyle View Post

what is the downside of having a 5x1 HDMI switch and only 1 HDMI cable running to the projector?

If every source and display implemented the video standards perfectly, there would be no drawback to a single HDMI cable and HDMI switch.

Using two separate cables to each of the two HDMI inputs allows each input to have separate calibrations and settings that are stored in the PJs memory and recalled automatically when video is sent to each respective input. If you have a source that needs a different setting from your other sources, you have the flexibility to do it.

If you are doing the install now, then I recommend that you install two HDMI cables, instead of just one. You can get good HDMI cables at monoprice.com and they are cheap. There is no reason not to. However, if your install is done already, I would wait to see if you need the second cable before going to the work of installing it.

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post #384 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

Is there ANYBODY in the PA/MD/NJ/VA/WV/NY area that has one of these RS1's or HD1's that I can check out in the next few days?

I will make it worth your while!!! (Read: HEAVILY discounted ISF calibration)

I'm in N.E. PA and on the pre-order, but not in the first batch. If your still interested in a couple of weeks let me know.
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post #385 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post


It's fantastic. I'm really happy with it. Colors are a little oversaturated but not in a bad way. It hasn't been D65 calibrated yet but to my eyes it looks really good. Very vibrant, great 3d. I have to agree with Cam Man that this is the most filmlike projector I've ever seen. It doesn't seem digital in any way.

Now that's more like it!


Quote:


Picture the best 70mm movie you've seen in the theater and this exceeds it on a 110" screen.

Well, let's not go gettin' crazy on us! I have seen the glory that is Lawrence of Arabia in 70mm (fully restored) at the Academy Theater in Beverly Hills. Greatest cinematic experience of my life!

Quote:


I'm a resolution hound and I can see fine detail on this that the earlier JVC panels used to hide. The depth in dark scenes is outstanding and this was my biggest reason for upgrading.

Okay I'm going back to watch some more stuff

Good to hear you are seeing more fine detail than with the HD2K. Have fun!


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post #386 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:02 PM
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I need help in understanding this. How can MC be off (red) a full pixel to the right on the right side of the screen, but be off 1/4 to the left on the left side of the screen? I am trying to understand how this is physically possible as I line up 3 panels in my head! I do understand what Bob is saying about it not being correctable, as the adjustment is in full pixel increments, so it would make the left side off by 1 1/4 pixels instead of just 1 on the right side (but then the right side would theoretically be perfect, right?).

The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the entire panel is off on the third plane (depth), thus creating a situation where the MC is off by a full pixel on one side and is pixel perfect on the other. The extra 1/4 pixel of MC on the left side could be CA from the lens and not related to panel alignment. The fact remains that what I have described is EXACTLY how it looks regardless of how it got there...

What is equally disturbing to me is the lack of lumens I am getting. Now the meter I am using is just an inexpensive AEMC CA813, so it is not a good source for determining absolute measurements, as its accuracy is no better than +- 10%, BUT it is perfectly suited for making relative measurements, in this case relative to my Ruby, since my Ruby was mounted at exactly the same throw and producing exactly the same size image, so the relationship between the 593 lumens on a new lamp (Ruby) is very accurate when compared to the 513 lumens I am getting from the RS-1 in high lamp mode. I bought this thing figuring that I could get at least 600 lumens of the claimed 700 figure and all of my brightness needs were depending heavily on having at least 600 lumens on a new lamp (300 lumens within a few weeks). By all accounts the RS-1 would be a BRIGHTER projector than the Ruby, but in my case it simply is not...VERY DISAPPOINTING.

I am going to try positioning the projector in various places to see if I can affect the MC by the use of lens shift (right now the amount of shift is almost zero), but I don't have high hopes for obtaining better results. Right now the RS-1 appears to me to be as much of a crap shoot as the Sony projectors - I got lucky with the Ruby but not so lucky with the RS-1...

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post #387 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I need help in understanding this. How can MC be off (red) a full pixel to the right on the right side of the screen, but be off 1/4 to the left on the left side of the screen? I am trying to understand how this is physically possible as I line up 3 panels in my head!

This is very common on 3-chip/panel projectors. The alignment problem is 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional. Plus there is CA to consider. Plus the focus can be different for different colors.

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post #388 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

MC on my unit is not very good. I have a full pixel of vertical red off to the right on the right side which gradually goes to about 1/4 pixel off to the left on the left side. As a result a 1 pixel shift does nothing but move the problem to the other side of the screen, so it is not correctable. My Ruby is better than that.

I took some quick brightness readings and at 1.8X throw I am getting:

Low - 437 lumens in center
Low - 379 lumens in corners
High - 513 lumens in center

My Ruby started off with 593 lumens, so this projector is not as bright as my Ruby.

My dealer got his RS1 mounted today and called me in to examine it. My impression is similar to Bob's. Convergence was not too good, but adjusting in the menu helped considerably. Even so, red was off about more than a pixel on the left and top. Adjusting only moved the problem to another area. I was disappointed in this, but it's really not visible a short distance away. Brightness measurements were 491 lumens on Medium setting and 565 lumens on High setting. Both measurements were an average of 9 areas across the screen. Throw ratio is about 2 so these measurements are probably right in line with what others are getting. The image was good, but missing the pop on a 110" 1.3 gain screen. There's a Mitsubishi HC3000 mounted next to it, and when we switched to it the observers preferred the Mits as it was much brighter. I counseled them that the RS1 would look much better on either a smaller screen or one with more gain, but this went right over their head.
The image on the RS1 was very good, especially the blacks. Sharpness was also good. They will, however, have to get a higher gain screen to properly show the RS1.
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post #389 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

This is very common on 3-chip/panel projectors. The alignment problem is 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional. Plus there is CA to consider. Plus the focus can be different for different colors.

Yep. As soon as Bob said "The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the entire panel is off on the third plane (depth)", it clicked!


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post #390 of 8757 Old 03-07-2007, 03:19 PM
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So what has happened to the 700 lumens calibrated D65 out of the box? Why are everyones lumens in the 400-500 range?
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