JVC DLA-RS1 Owner's Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I have also noted how anyone who has said anything less than how stellar of a performer the RS-1 is has been at least somewhat dumped on (Ran being the latest).

Bob I followed that thread and didn't see that. I thought people on both sides of the fence appeciated how he saw things during his Sharp to RS1 Clone comparison. I know I did as I had narrowed down my projector replacement to between those 2 units.
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post #452 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yup, I've been accused of this before for honestly reporting when a product did not meet my expectations, and I have also noted how anyone who has said anything less than how stellar of a performer the RS-1 is has been at least somewhat dumped on (Ran being the latest). Since I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade, I will not be posting anything more on the RS-1...I have said all that I am going to say. Chances are that I just got a bum unit and all of the rest of them will be wonderful, or at least I sincerely hope so! Best of luck and enjoy your new projector, everybody!

P.S. - Mark, thanks for the info...That is very interesting!

Bob

Sorry to hear you may have a bum unit. BTW My comment wasn't aimed at you and owning a unit myself I've already said it isn't perfect. I didn't buy on a blind pre-order so maybe there's a lesson about expectation v hype for many.

Dazzer
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post #453 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Dazzer thanks for the info. I haven't measured Ansi CR and on/off CR but everything else on this unit is great with the exception of this watermark issue. It's great news that it's not permanent. I'll watch it closely and report back after I've logged more hours on it.




Did your watermark go away?


Here's a picture showing a 1080 100IRE blue screen. This would show the "watermark" phenomenon that appeared for a short period during early use.

Dazzer
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post #454 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 05:41 AM
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Bob's comments are very much appreciated here, as I've always found his posts to be quite objective and informative. I hope his situation gets resolved to his satisfaction.

I will, however, say that regardless of all the issues he has, it thrills me that he still states the following:

Quote:


Is it better than my Ruby? Yes, but not by a heck of a lot, but it is probably because I got a very good Ruby and a not so good RS-1.

This is no small praise in my eyes, and makes me quite excited to receive my RS1, as I'll be upgrading from a Panny AX100...I can live with this quite happily.

I would likely not feel precisely the same if I was already as fortunate as many here regarding the quality of the projector to be replaced. As a matter of fact, if I had ANY of the recent 1080p machines, I likely wouldn't be getting the JVC for financial reasons alone. I do feel fortunate that it happened to come along when I was ready for one though.

Disclaimer: Totally biased RS1 fanclown...cannot be relied upon for any type of objectivity regarding same. You have been warned.
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post #455 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Units:
You are apparently one of the many people here who cannot see beyond cheerleading for a particular projector or projector technology. In my posts about the importance of color accuracy I have been scrupulous to point out that this is not about any particular projector or projector technology. It's about the importance of getting accurate color. It is about consumers caring enough to put pressure on manufacturers to provide it. I am routinely frustrated that this subject is often just simply ignored here as though contrast and geometry were the only parameters of performance worthy of discussion. I suggest you read my posts on this subject more carefully and then reconsider this intemperate and not-very-helpful post.

Oh, I've read your posts all right. You've got me there. My "intemperate and not-very-helpful" post to you clearly isn't as temperate and helpful as your post that responds to Cam Man's statements regarding his measurements and, more importantly, his observations (valuable and extremely experienced observations I might add), that he is very pleased with the color performance of his RS1 by advising him that, according to what you've read, the colors on his pj aren't "as good as he suggests"....

Disclaimer: Totally biased RS1 fanclown...cannot be relied upon for any type of objectivity regarding same. You have been warned.
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post #456 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

What is equally disturbing to me is the lack of lumens I am getting. Now the meter I am using is just an inexpensive AEMC CA813, so it is not a good source for determining absolute measurements, as its accuracy is no better than +- 10%, BUT it is perfectly suited for making relative measurements, in this case relative to my Ruby, since my Ruby was mounted at exactly the same throw and producing exactly the same size image, so the relationship between the 593 lumens on a new lamp (Ruby) is very accurate when compared to the 513 lumens I am getting from the RS-1 in high lamp mode. I bought this thing figuring that I could get at least 600 lumens of the claimed 700 figure and all of my brightness needs were depending heavily on having at least 600 lumens on a new lamp (300 lumens within a few weeks). By all accounts the RS-1 would be a BRIGHTER projector than the Ruby, but in my case it simply is not...VERY DISAPPOINTING.

Hi Bob, Jason measured as little as 384 lumens in his review depending on throw.

Light Output-Max Throw: ~486 lumens (High Lamp), ~384 lumens (Low Lamp)
Light Output-Min Throw: ~632 lumens (High Lamp), ~531 lumens (Low Lamp)
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post #457 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroenen View Post

Did anyone watch Lost on their RS1 last night? Leno? Letterman? Any impressions on TV content (HD)?

I have watched a variety of programming on my RS1 including Lost, American Idol, CSI Miami, Heroes, House etc. and it all looks just about as good as I have seen it with my Sharp 20K. In fact, after spending more time with the RS1, I will venture to say, that the majority of the scenes I have watched, look superior on the RS1. There are only an occaisional scene, where I feel that the Sharp would be superior. It could be that I am just adjusting to the image of the RS1, but I don't think so. The colors look richer to me on the RS1, and I feel this is due to the native CR (not an oversaturation issue).

Last night, I also popped in Dark City, and Revenge of the Sith, and they looked the best I have ever seen on any projector. Really, Really satisfying levels of black.

I would also like to comment on brightness. For me, the combination of 133" High Power, and the RS1 (long throw) is the perfect marriage. Although it is at the lower end of the lumen range, there are scenes that are almost painfully bright. I calculate that I am getting about 20fl, with my screen, and I left some lights on last night while watching AI, which I couldn't do with my Sharp. As the bulb ages, it will drift down into the ideal range, for lights off viewing. In the mean time, I may consider a mild ND filter, if I find some viewing to be too bright.

Phil
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post #458 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:09 AM
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Great stuff Free,

I'm just now trying to catch up on all my RS1 reading. I cant seam to find a post on this thing anywhere

I know a few are shipping in my area so I hope to check them out this weekend
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post #459 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post

Hi Bob, Jason measured as little as 384 lumens in his review depending on throw.

Light Output-Max Throw: ~486 lumens (High Lamp), ~384 lumens (Low Lamp)
Light Output-Min Throw: ~632 lumens (High Lamp), ~531 lumens (Low Lamp)


Jason said his unit had approx 24 hours on the bulb when he measured, and he may have been a bit more like 6300k so he would have got more lumens with 1-2 hours on bulb and 65K.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #460 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Ok, at this point I am the first "less than ecstatic" RS-1 owner.

1. The lumens output is my biggest gripe. I have a $5k anamorphic lens and 139" 2.35:1 screen on order that I will probably never get to use because the lumens are simply to low to be of much use for more than a few weeks. I am already working quickly to figure out how much I will need to reduce the size of my screen in order to maintain decent brightness for a reasonable amount of time (for my definitions "decent brightness" means 12 - 15 ftL and "reasonable amount of time" means 6 months or about 500 hours of lamp time).

Bob what kind of screen did you order?

Did you read this?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065
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post #461 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:26 AM
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Quote:


BTW My comment wasn't aimed at you and owning a unit myself I've already said it isn't perfect.

Sorry, Dazzer. I guess I'm just overreacting after taking a beating from my comments on the Panny AX100, another popular projector around here. There is a big difference, though, as I am confident that the Panny was working correctly, but this time I am quite sure I got a bum unit. I will be talking with Jason soon about exchanging it, but I want to check things out one last time just to make absolutely sure that the problems are not due to operator error....
Quote:


This is no small praise in my eyes, and makes me quite excited to receive my RS1, as I'll be upgrading from a Panny AX100...I can live with this quite happily.

Yes, even with its faults, overall I still prefer the picture from the RS-1, and that really is saying a lot because my Ruby performs so well. If you are going from an AX100 you will be absolutely thrilled...It is in a completely different league than the Panny!
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post #462 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:29 AM
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I still can't wait for my pre-order RS1. At first I thought my 122" Silver Star would be overkill for the RS1, but at max throw, I think it might just fine. It is going to be head and shoulders above my HS10 with my cc filter in just about every way.

Nope... not related
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post #463 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post

Hi Bob, Jason measured as little as 384 lumens in his review depending on throw.

Light Output-Max Throw: ~486 lumens (High Lamp), ~384 lumens (Low Lamp)
Light Output-Min Throw: ~632 lumens (High Lamp), ~531 lumens (Low Lamp)

At max throw and low lamp w/ my 104" 1.0 screen - I'm looking at 9.37 FL. But I knew this going in. This is about where I'm at right now w/ my current set up. And I'm OK w/ that. I can switch to "Dynamic" or high lamp if I need more juice. And I have no problem buying a new bulb every 500 hours (RS1 is used for film viewing only - no sports or TV)
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post #464 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:35 AM
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Quote:


Bob what kind of screen did you order?

A High Power, of course!

But do the math based on my lumens. Using 513 lumens on a new lamp in high lamp mode and assuming that I am getting a gain of 2.0 from the HP (I like to be conservative) that gives me 18 ftL, which is a little on the high side but very watchable. From tracking 11 different lamps I have found that they all reached half brightness within 500 hours (most of them sooner), so I would be down to 9 ftL (too low for my tastes) much sooner than I would like.
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post #465 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Here's a picture showing a 1080 100IRE blue screen. This would show the "watermark" phenomenon that appeared for a short period during early use.

Dazzer

Very interesting. Great photo. I can clearly see the photographed "watermark" on my Samsung computer monitor at home - but here at work using a Dell monitor - it's not visible at all in the picture ...?


Mark,
You should feel pretty good that this should go away w/ continued use! (good reason to put some hours on that bulb!) let us know when it's gone.
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post #466 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Sorry, Dazzer. I guess I'm just overreacting after taking a beating from my comments on the Panny AX100, another popular projector around here. There is a big difference, though, as I am confident that the Panny was working correctly, but this time I am quite sure I got a bum unit. I will be talking with Jason soon about exchanging it, but I want to check things out one last time just to make absolutely sure that the problems are not due to operator error....

Yes, even with its faults, overall I still prefer the picture from the RS-1, and that really is saying a lot because my Ruby performs so well. If you are going from an AX100 you will be absolutely thrilled...It is in a completely different league than the Panny!


Glad you are going to try an exchange Bob. Hope it works out better for you. I appreciate your honesty though and hope nobody gets down on you for it as this is what most of us want to hear is just an honest report.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #467 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:41 AM
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Has everyone agreed on a screen standard of physical measure? Do I describe my 10 foot wide 2.35ar screen as
120" (wide@2.35) or
92" (wide@16x19) or
130" (diag@2.35) or
105" (diag@16x9)?

Inquiring lumens need to know.
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post #468 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:53 AM
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[quote=Bob Sorel]Yup, I've been accused of this before for honestly reporting when a product did not meet my expectations, and I have also noted how anyone who has said anything less than how stellar of a performer the RS-1 is has been at least somewhat dumped on (Ran being the latest). Since I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade, I will not be posting anything more on the RS-1...I have said all that I am going to say. Chances are that I just got a bum unit and all of the rest of them will be wonderful, or at least I sincerely hope so! Best of luck and enjoy your new projector, everybody![quote]

Bob,
I for one will miss your RS1 reports (good or bad).

p.s.
At least (down the road) let us know how this all shakes out for you.
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post #469 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 07:59 AM
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Bob, what kind of throw are you using to get that 513? It definitely sounds very low relative to the others, regardless of throw, but I am just curious.
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post #470 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:00 AM
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Did anyone post some quick OTB settings? Amazon has the HD DVD for DVE as being released on March 27. Is there an AVIA HD DVD out? I couldn't find it.

Is there a good test disc to use right now for setting the brightness and contrast? Will the regular AVIA work fine?

Questions, questions. I'm getting high from RS-1 fumes in my office right now. This is going to be one long day.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #471 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:02 AM
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Actually, I think Ekkehart had an almost 200 lumen range between min and max throw on high lamp. So if you are close to max throw that could account for a lot of the difference.
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post #472 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:23 AM
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My setup:

A 9' ceiling with 2' 3" above and below the projected screen (not including borders) on my wall. Seating areas 11 to 12' from screen 3' or so off the ground and 16 to 17' from the screen about 3' 6" off the ground, both less when reclined.

If I mount the PJ 14.5' from the screen , at a height of 7', or right above the top of the projected screen, would the High Power still give me a higher gain than an angular reflective 1.3 gain screen?
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post #473 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I would also like to comment on brightness. For me, the combination of 133" High Power, and the RS1 (long throw) is the perfect marriage. Although it is at the lower end of the lumen range, there are scenes that are almost painfully bright. I calculate that I am getting about 20fl, with my screen, and I left some lights on last night while watching AI, which I couldn't do with my Sharp. As the bulb ages, it will drift down into the ideal range, for lights off viewing. In the mean time, I may consider a mild ND filter, if I find some viewing to be too bright.

If you're at the long end of the throw then, using the lumens numbers Jason provided (384 normal, 486 high) and a screen gain of 2.0 (iirc for the HP), then you should be getting the following ftL with that size screen with the following light loss over time.

1.78 AR
Loss Normal High
0% 14.6 18.5
10% 13.2 16.7
20% 11.7 14.8
30% 10.2 13.0
40% 8.8 11.1
50% 7.3 9.3

I'm assuming given your comments re:filter that you were on normal lamp. So that means, at best, you were watching 14-15 ftL. If you found it that bright I think that's very good news - at least for me (127"W 2.35AR, 1.2 gain)

It seems the brightness reports are all over the map - makes me wonder how much of it is due to the machine vs. environment and viewing preferences....

Craig.

Craig

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post #474 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:42 AM
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Quote:


Bob, what kind of throw are you using to get that 513?

1.8X...the maximum throw I will be able to use once the anamorphic lens gets here.
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post #475 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yup, I've been accused of this before for honestly reporting when a product did not meet my expectations, and I have also noted how anyone who has said anything less than how stellar of a performer the RS-1 is has been at least somewhat dumped on (Ran being the latest). Since I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade, I will not be posting anything more on the RS-1...I have said all that I am going to say. Chances are that I just got a bum unit and all of the rest of them will be wonderful, or at least I sincerely hope so! Best of luck and enjoy your new projector, everybody!

P.S. - Mark, thanks for the info...That is very interesting!


Bob you should not feel that way. People do need to take it easy on people making honest opinions, because in the end it is info we all need to hear. Not long ago someone posted that if a projector has a weakness that you and Darin will be quick to point it out. Thats what I respect most about you Bob. I wished more people were like you and Darin, this forum needs your opinions and in my opinion both of you should become reviewers.

Dale
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post #476 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I have watched a variety of programming on my RS1 including Lost, American Idol, CSI Miami, Heroes, House etc. and it all looks just about as good as I have seen it with my Sharp 20K. In fact, after spending more time with the RS1, I will venture to say, that the majority of the scenes I have watched, look superior on the RS1. There are only an occaisional scene, where I feel that the Sharp would be superior. It could be that I am just adjusting to the image of the RS1, but I don't think so. The colors look richer to me on the RS1, and I feel this is due to the native CR (not an oversaturation issue).

Last night, I also popped in Dark City, and Revenge of the Sith, and they looked the best I have ever seen on any projector. Really, Really satisfying levels of black.

Excellent!
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post #477 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:50 AM
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Bob Sorrel said: "But that high contrast seems to mask some of the low level detail. For instance, if a man is wearing an all black suit and a bright white shirt, the bright white seems to mask some of the detail in his suit, while on the Ruby the white is nowhere near as bright, but in exchange I can see more detail in the black suit."

I could be way off base here but it occurred to me that part of this apparent loss of detail in the RS-1 shadows in the high contrast scenes could be due to the constriction of your pupils due to the bright objects in the scene. In other words, the detail might actually be there but due to your eyes trying to deal with the bright aspects of the image, you just cannot see it. Perhaps if you could block your view so you can only see the shadow area this possibility could be eliminated.

Of course our eyes do not stare at one spot typically. We are unconsciously scanning the picture all of the time.

And Bob, don't stop posting. Honest reviews good or bad are always appreciated.

Pat
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post #478 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yup, I've been accused of this before for honestly reporting when a product did not meet my expectations, and I have also noted how anyone who has said anything less than how stellar of a performer the RS-1 is has been at least somewhat dumped on (Ran being the latest). Since I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade, I will not be posting anything more on the RS-1...I have said all that I am going to say.

Bob calls 'em like he sees 'em.

The potential good news for the RS1 is that IIRC, Bob was also initially very lackluster in his initial Ruby reports. It was only calibration, tweaking, and adding a VP that his Ruby impressions changed.
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post #479 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I thought you would all find it interesting to compare what we are seeing with our RS1s to the professional standards for digital cinemas (DCI/SMPTE). I will quote the specs, but you can do a search on line for Digital Cinema Initiative and see the document that contains this yourself. Look in chapter 8, table 11.

Here are Mark's readings in fc from left to right, top to bottom:
12.1 14.4 13.2
13.7 16.0 14.4
12.8 16.0 13.9

For these purposes, let's presume Mark has a unity gain screen.

With regards to white uniformity, the "Nominal" spec is 85% of center at corners and sides. It has to be 13.6 to make that on Mark's pj. Three corners on Mark's don't make that...but "Tolerances" for "Review Rooms" are 80% to 90% of center. All but one corner of Mark's RS1 meet that tolerance. "Theatrical" tolerances are 70% to 90% of center. Mark's RS1 meets or exceeds those tolerances.

Nominal calibrated center white luminance is 14 foot lamberts (fL) +/-0.7 fL. Theatrical tolerance is +/-3 fL.

Take a look at the table and see how the RS1 stacks up to THE current reference for reproducing the movies we are watching. As you can see, the RS1 meets or exceeds these significantly.

My point is to try to give some perspective as to how we should measure our satisfaction or lack thereof for this projector. "Perfection" (if we could even define it) would be nice, but that is not reasonable for us, the professionals, or the manufacturers. I think these reference professional benchmarks make a powerful comparison to alleviate the great anxiety that sometimes takes off unnecessarily. Life is stressful enough. If your pj measures up to the reference professional ones by which the movies judged technically, it is time to pop some corn and enjoy a great movie.

Thanks very much for those observations Cam Man.... something for everyone: professionals - ISF calibrators -anal retentives - as well the rest of us "casual users". Kidding aside, your comments provide insights for those of us without professional skills who nonetheless want the best performance available at a given price point.

Bob Sorel: I hope you'll continue to post your findings. I, for one, have found your prior observations very interesting and objective.
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post #480 of 8767 Old 03-08-2007, 08:58 AM
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The potential good news for the RS1 is that IIRC, Bob was also initially very lackluster in his initial Ruby reports. It was only calibration, tweaking, and adding a VP that his Ruby impressions changed.

That's correct, HHF! The Ruby out of the box had terrible colors and required a lot of tweaking and calibration to get it to really look great. With the RS-1, I already had the VP, there wasn't much of anything to tweak, and supposedly the calibration was spot on (though I haven't checked it yet). The problems I am facing with this unit are not correctable AFAIK.
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