JVC DLA-RS1 Owner's Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

OK, what gives, why a Red filter and not a straight ND? Is this a new secret tweek? Damn, I've been watching my silly old Marantz S2 for the 4 years (very happily I might add) and now I'm totally out of the loop on PJ tweeks! I need to buy a bottle of Tylenol as a tweek... I have a headache!

Ernie,

Wait until you get your PJ to make any decisions. You might be very happy with what you see. If not, you shouldn't need anything more than a mild ND filter... any degradation the ND filter might cause to your PQ would never be noticed by anything other than possibly some test equipment.

You're going to make yourself nuts!
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post #542 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:45 PM
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Cam Man,

Great post. Seems to me everyone is focused on numbers posted, not knowing how accurate they are, and making go/no-go decisions. Seems that the true value is in what you see, not the specifications. Even with the CRT FP, 0 IRE is pretty black, but as you point out, night scenes are not that black if there is any detail to be seen.

The dynamic range of the RS1 is going to make most viewing spectacular, because of the way the eye sees the picture.

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post #543 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

OK, what gives, why a Red filter and not a straight ND? Is this a new secret tweek?

Here's a quick rundown on the reason to add filters of various types. You can get into more depth on this, but as I said before, there's no reason to worry about it until you get the projector. I've run through a bunch of filters with the AE900, mostly for fun, but I'm not really planning on using one with the RS1.

Enjoy!

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post #544 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

OK, what gives, why a Red filter and not a straight ND? Is this a new secret tweek? Damn, I've been watching my silly old Marantz S2 for the 4 years (very happily I might add) and now I'm totally out of the loop on PJ tweeks! I need to buy a bottle of Tylenol as a tweek... I have a headache!

There are two reasons.
First UHP lamp have a weaker red output. Second blue and green are responsible for perception of brightness. (Remember the red lights in a submarine to keep the eye adjusted to the dark)
The weaker red output from the UHP is usually compenseted electrically inside de projector. The red panel is driven harder than the blue and green panels.
In a DLP projector the red section of the colorwheel is larger for the compensation.

By using a red filter you don't loose as much light as with a nd filter.

PS.
After viewing of some video material with bright scenes I backed of contrast to +10 and brightness back to 0.
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post #545 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet1 View Post

I would generally agree with this. It is the 0 IRE that was mainly referring to when I said I was disappointed with the black levels. Scenes with mixed content appear to have deep blacks, but the blacks are still far from true black... the PJ just has really good contrast making the blacks appear darker than they really are when you compare them to the black boarders of the screen. It's kind of an optical illusion in this sense.

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused with my earlier statements.

Just to ad a layman's point of view. What I am noticing is that the RS1 has the ability to hold the illusion of black in every scene in every movie I have viewed so far. With my previous projectors, many times during a single movie, I would be pulled out of the movie because the scene would fade to black or go very low APL and I would be staring at a grey mess on the screen. The RS1 keeps the 3D effect through the whole movie. To me, it's an amazing achievement. It's almost like having my old Marquee 8700LC back in the theater, but much brighter and sharper. Now, I'm not saying the RS1 has the blacks of my old Electrohome, but with the full 15k-1 on/off, it gives the same basic visual effect.

Adam
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post #546 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

Also note that I used the user setting in the color temp menu. As soon as you select a user color temp setting the brightnes goes up in comparison too the normal color temp option. This indicates there is headroom.

The brightness increases in the User color temperature modes because they are preset to the High Color temperature. The Middle color temperature, which is very close to D65, is factory adjusted with no headroom above reference white at Contrast = 0 setting. i.e. Contrast = 1 will clip below reference white. I think most users would want to calibrate for some additional headroom.

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #547 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Cam Man,

Great post. Seems to me everyone is focused on numbers posted, not knowing how accurate they are, and making go/no-go decisions. Seems that the true value is in what you see, not the specifications. Even with the CRT FP, 0 IRE is pretty black, but as you point out, night scenes are not that black if there is any detail to be seen.

The dynamic range of the RS1 is going to make most viewing spectacular, because of the way the eye sees the picture.

EXACTLY what I was saying in my previous post....

You da man, GlenC

Adam
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post #548 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:01 PM
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Also remember this.
A new lamp is like cold racing tyres. Before warming up the grip is not the best it can be. I have learned from others that you should wait perhaps 20 or more hours before reaching a final verdict.

Also a "bright" projector plus a small screen equals elevated black level as does any ambient light.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #549 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:02 PM
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I'm on the RS1 pre order and I'm replacing a Sony VPL-VW10HT with it.

I believe the Sony might have a higher light output. I'm using a 120" diagonal 16:9 Stewart Grayhawk screen now so I'm concerned. I do have a 120" StudioTek in the attic that may or may not be usable after being rolled up for 6 years in a hot Florida attic.

Can anyone who may have had a Sony 10HT comment on brightness comparisons between these two projectors?

Thank you.
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post #550 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Guys,

Concerning initial brightness on your screens/setups:

When the projector is brand new it SHOULD look overly bright to you. If it doesn't, within 250 to 500 hours on the lamp it may look too dim. Lamps lose brightness VERY rapidly in the first few hundred hours, with all 11 that I have tracked reaching half brightness in less than 500 hours. And then they continue to lose brightness after that, but at a much slower pace.

I recommend buying and keeping an ND-2X filter around, as it serves a couple of purposes:

1. You can put it in front of the lens when the lamp is new to reduce the brightness. Sure it reduces the image quality slightly, but in another way the image will look better because blacks will be blacker and brightness will be more in line with theater standards. Colors look richer when they are not overly bright and you will notice less artifacts in the source material. Personally speaking, I prefer 12 to 16 ftLs as my optimal viewing brightness as that is the best compromise between having a picture which is too dim to be interesting versus too bright to have good blacks and rich looking colors. Of course this optimum brightness level will be different from person to person, so you need to see and evaluate what is right for you by yourself.

2. You can use the filter to decide whether or not you have chosen the right screen. Even if you decide to live with the overly bright picture of a new lamp, by placing the filter in front of the lens you can at least use it as an evaluation tool to decide whether or not you screen is going to cut it in the long run. Since your lamp will soon be putting out the same amount of light as what the filter is doing now, you can use it to judge the approximate brightness that you will be viewing for most of the lamp's life.

So don't make the mistake of judging image brightness on a new lamp!

One caveat. Brightness perception is logarithmic. 2x brightness actually only seems 20% brighter and won't seem like a HUGE difference. I just replaced the bulb in my H78 which had 850hrs. It had to have been at least 50% dimmer than the new one. It looks a little brighter and RBE and SDE are more noticable, but I wouldn't say that it is overly bright now.


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post #551 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:13 PM
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I had a 11HT for years and from what I have seen first hand with the RS1 it is much brighter. I can't remember what the 11HT was but my guess it is in the 200 lumen range.
I will be using a 123" FH with my RS1.
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post #552 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:19 PM
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I never judge black level based on scenes that have bright objects in them as black always looks blacker when it is next to something very white. Even a mediocre projector that is very bright but only has 2k:1 CR will have very black looking blacks if you judge black that way. I judge black level using very dark scenes where there are no bright objects at all. This not only lets you know the true black level of the projector, but it also lets you know how good the shadow detail is. To me, dark scene performance is what separates the men from the boys.

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post #553 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:24 PM
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Quote:


Brightness perception is logarithmic. 2x brightness actually only seems 20% brighter and won't seem like a HUGE difference.

Good point! But it also seems that the differences appear to be much more minor at the bright end of the scale and much more significant at the lower end. That is, once you are below a certain brightness threshold the changes in intensity are more apparent. I guess that's why it is described as following a logarithmic curve, heh?

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post #554 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:36 PM
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To me, dark scene performance is what separates the men from the boys.

so is the RS1 man enough for you or still an adolesent in your opinion?
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post #555 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:38 PM
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so is the RS1 man enough for you or still an adolesent in your opinion?

I haven't had the time to do a thorough evaluation as yet unfortunately...

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post #556 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:41 PM
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weatherby,

Thank you for the info. I was concerned because I seemed to recall that the Sony 10HT was advertised as a 1000 lumen machine?
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post #557 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:46 PM
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Quote:


This not only lets you know the true black level of the projector, but it also lets you know how good the shadow detail is. To me, dark scene performance is what separates the men from the boys.

I agree with that! But, as I described earlier, you are at the mercy of the cinematographer and the quality of the transfer. If photographed with no brighter areas in the shot, the night scene will look like it has terrible black on digital and film projection. Star fields and shots like the night aerials of the Gotham sky line in BB are excellent shots to judge by. There is not a lot of bright things to make your iris clamp down; you are seeing a functional, useful appearance of black (and there is no smoke, fog or haze in the sky to lower contrast).

I'm not trying to diss you or your comments, Bob. I'm just keeping a flow of perspective and information coming from the other end of the process (from movie-making to movie display). No disrespect intended.
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post #558 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Picture View Post

I was concerned because I seemed to recall that the Sony 10HT was advertised as a 1000 lumen machine?

But not at D65.
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post #559 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobrigavitch View Post

One caveat. Brightness perception is logarithmic. 2x brightness actually only seems 20% brighter and won't seem like a HUGE difference. I just replaced the bulb in my H78 which had 850hrs. It had to have been at least 50% dimmer than the new one. It looks a little brighter and RBE and SDE are more noticable, but I wouldn't say that it is overly bright now.


Would the converse be true? That is, 50% of original brightness would appear 20% dimmer? If that's the case, I would not be as concerned with Bob Sorel's tests indicating the drop of ~50% of lamp output so quickly.
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post #560 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I talked to JVC today. JVC Japan is still testing its fix for the problem. They obviously want to be sure no hidden issues remain. I don't expect to see it this week. I still don't know if the firmware fix will be upgradeable over the RS-232 port, but I will let you know when I know for certain. They intend to send me the fix (upgradeable firmware or whatever form it takes) when they receive it.

Greg

Any word from JVC yet concerning the matrix mismatch and if the corrected firmware update will be end user implemented? I know this subject has been covered to death on the other RS-1 threads, but could you also ask your JVC contacts about enabling vertical stretch via the same or future firmware update since the Gennum 9351 chip is fully capable of performing this function?
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post #561 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 02:54 PM
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I'm just keeping a flow of perspective and information coming from the other end of the process (from movie-making to movie display). No disrespect intended.

No offense taken... It is nice to hear how things work at your end of the camera so that we can coordinate the knowledge and develop a better understanding of what we are seeing, what the process is in creating the content, and how to judge it correctly. Learning is always a good thing!

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post #562 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:03 PM
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Would the converse be true? That is, 50% of original brightness would appear 20% dimmer? If that's the case, I would not be as concerned with Bob Sorel's tests indicating the drop of ~50% of lamp output so quickly.

Alvin, it all depends on how bright the picture is with a new lamp. If your picture is VERY bright with a new lamp, then once it reaches half brightness the level may still appear to be just fine to you, but if you plan your projector/screen combination so that a new lamp is just right (in brightness), then when it reaches half brightness it may look unbearably dim. The ND-2X filter is a good test, and should be done over a period of a few days, not just a few minutes, so that you can see the effects over a wide variety of material and brightness levels.

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post #563 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:06 PM
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I have a feeling this thread is going to become "Ginormous".

I don't think it'll beat out the Denver OTA thread. We're on our 4th continuation. The last section was 598 pages alone and still no full-power OTA TV!

Ernie

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post #564 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:07 PM
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JVC IN THE HOUSE!!!

Hey All,

Received my RS1 on Tuesday and finally hooked it up last night. I had to wait an extra day to let it thaw out(long cold trip up here). It nearly killed me and I almost gave in to temptation, however I managed to resist and survive.

First impressions are WOW!!!

Fan noise..what fan noise?? Even in high mode my wife and I struggled to hear it, and she actually thought it was turned off, before I pointed out that it was indeed on. Much less noise than my previous Optoma HD7100, which I thought was not that bad in low fan mode.

No dead pixels..no pixels!! No shading, no convergence issues that I have seen yet, but will test this out this weekend. No light leak and no bright corners that I have observed so far, but again will test more. I have only watched HD-TV last night for a couple of hours, feed through my DVDO-VP30 at 1080i. I have yet to test out standard DVD and HD-DVD.

Color excellent, black level excellent, contrast excellent, sharpness excellent and brightness excellent. I am projecting onto a 100" grey screen from about 10'3" with very little of the horizontal and vertical lens shift used.

I will post a full review with pics and calibration results on my site in a couple of weeks. However I am in no hurry, as I want to calibrate it and get to know it and enjoy it more first before the review.

Overall I am a very happy camper..JVC well done...finally a projector I may keep around for a few years or more!!

Mike A
LL

Just one more upgrade honey, I promise!!
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post #565 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

The brightness increases in the User color temperature modes because they are preset to the High Color temperature. The Middle color temperature, which is very close to D65, is factory adjusted with no headroom above reference white at Contrast = 0 setting. i.e. Contrast = 1 will clip below reference white. I think most users would want to calibrate for some additional headroom.

Greg,
Are you suggesting that if we want the addtional headroom then start at one of the User modes and calibrate from there? I think that's what you said.

Thanks,

Keith S.
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post #566 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:18 PM
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I've had mine running for only a couple of hours with no attempt yet to make any adjustments.

Initial impression is it's very bright on my 128x72 hi power. I was able to have full lights on and still got a very watchable picture. Colors seem too saturated out of the box. The resolution is amazing. The smell as others have mentioned is a bit much. The fan noise in normal lamp is a complete non-issue. Comparatively the Virtuoso is a lawn mower.

The 3D effect varies scene to scene and does not seem as good as from my Virtuoso with all lights off of course. I hope this is a function of not having it dialed in yet. I am going to move it to the long end of the throw to reduce the brightness and improve the on/off contrast and ansi contrast per Jason's review findings. Unfortunately I have a client coming over so that will have to wait.

Don't lose sight of the Big Picture
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post #567 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:27 PM
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Help!

I just hooked up my RS-1; feed sources include an Oppo 971h for DVD's, a JVC D-VHS and an RCA DTC-100 with the RCA component conversion attachment, for Directv . My problem is with the RCA; I get the following message from the RS-1: "frequency of input signal is out of range". I also get an intermittent half-second or so hi-def image occasionally flashing up on the screen. I know the RCA is an "oldie" but it has been modded (169x) to record hi-def to the JVC thru firewire & I hope to keep it running. It works fine with my old Sanyo Z2.

I did watch part of a hi-def recording from the JVC thru the component connection & the RS-1 has the "wow" factor for me, in a big way. I just hope someone has a suggestion that will help me get the RCA to work.
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post #568 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:50 PM
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Owners. any comments on shadow detail are welcome. Thanks.
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post #569 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

The brightness increases in the User color temperature modes because they are preset to the High Color temperature. The Middle color temperature, which is very close to D65, is factory adjusted with no headroom above reference white at Contrast = 0 setting. i.e. Contrast = 1 will clip below reference white. I think most users would want to calibrate for some additional headroom.

Yes, this is exactly what I found as well. Contrast at 0 is perfect, bump it up to 1 and you crush -1%. So I don't get how people are reportedly driving up contrast to get more brightness without clipping. Unless they have the wrong levels to begin with, or are clipping like crazy without realizing it.
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post #570 of 8757 Old 03-08-2007, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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lovingdvd, have you posted your overall subjective impressions yet? Forget about your objective measurements for the time being.....


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