JVC DLA-RS1 Owner's Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSRC View Post

so using 80% vertical will probably not allow for any horizontal shift.

It's not THAT limited. The owner's manual has a diagram. It's just the corners that are rounded off. At full 80% vertical shift there's still some horizontal shift available.
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post #92 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

While "right" and "wrong" can be subjective terms in this usage and therefore open to opinion, one type of pixel structure matrix versus another can certainly be proven to be more "accurate" at reproducing the original video content than the other.

Tube amplifiers, with their IM and harmonic distortion and rolled off high end, can be preferred by some people over the sound of well designed solid state amps, so in that respect there is no "right" or "wrong" amp choice either. But once again one is most definitely a more accurate representation of the original source material than the other.

Thanks Bod. So the answer is ?

Dazzer
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post #93 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies regarding the mounting/throw/offset issues!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSRC View Post

When you see shift percentages, 50% means that the center of the lens could be opposite the edge of the screen (since the percentages start with the projector in the center of the screeen, it's 50% of the width or height from each edge). So, 80% vertical means that the center of the lens can be as much as 30% (of the screen height) below the bottom of the screen or above the top of the screen. Same goes for horizontal. Of course, usually the more you use in one direction limts the amount you can use the other direction, so using 80% vertical will probably not allow for any horizontal shift.

This is a good explanation too. And it actually confirms my example, since 30% of the screen height would put you 1.5 feet above the screen (assuming a 5 foot tall screen) just as my example did.

I am going to add this to the first post, but if anyone thinks it needs clarification or should be worded differently, please let me know as I will always be open for suggestions.
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post #94 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithsimp View Post

In the demo I attended Rob, the JVC reps talked about the lens shift. One of the points they made was that the vertical and horizontal shifting are not totally independent. In other words if you had to use the entire 80% vertical shift you would not be able to shift the lens the full 34% horizontally. So I am assuming that if you had to shift the lens 10% vertically, it would reduces the horizontal shift you have available by roughly the same amount. Does this make sense?
So I don't believe that someone could plan to mount this unit in a spot that would require the full 80% vertical and 34% horizontal shift at the same time.

I would also like to know if there is any downside to using the full vertical offset (with no horizontal). With an anamorphic lens as well.
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post #95 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:


Thanks Bod. So the answer is ?

The one that results in the highest total system MTF. Presently a single chip DLP with high quality optics would be the champ, but from the initial reports the RS-1 could be a contender. We will have to wait until someone like Greg Rogers measures system MTF and gives us the definitive answer, but I suspect that the high end single chip DLPs will still be on top for now.
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post #96 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

This projector is on my short list for upgrading to a 1080P unit, as with the other four or five thousand folks reading these threads.

I have a concern though. I just bought a Stewart Firehawk screen about two months ago because I like to have a lamp on every once in a while if the buds are over watching a game. (small area with a bunch of guys in the dark drinking beer just ain't cool). The throw ratio is 1.8 / 1, it's ceiling mounted and the screen is 96 X 41 in a constant image height set up.

So my concern is Jason states in his review that a grey screen may not be a good choice for use with this projector. This screen wasn't exactly cheap and I don't want to buy something else just for this particular projector. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Should I steer away from the RS1 and look harder at a different projector?

I'll give you my impressions when the RS-1s gets here Monday. I'm using a 127" Firehawk in a room with light walls and often put sports on during the day (with some light control). The picture does wash out a bit when viewing during the day but the picture is easily watchable. I'm presently using the Ruby and will compare it to the RS-1 when it arrives.

Jim
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post #97 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

The one that results in the highest total system MTF. Presently a single chip DLP with high quality optics would be the champ, but from the initial reports the RS-1 could be a contender. We will have to wait until someone like Greg Rogers measures system MTF and gives us the definitive answer, but I suspect that the high end single chip DLPs will still be on top for now.

So as a sufferer of RBE I can't watch my single chip DLP but I can rest assured that technically it may be best. Great ! theory v reality

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post #98 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

So as a sufferer of RBE I can't watch my single chip DLP but I can rest assured that technically it may be best. Great ! theory v reality

Dazzer

Doesn't really matter what the theory is or what anyone reads, writes, observes or thinks is best, the most important factor is, the picture/system you have, needs to look good to you. If you are happy with the picture, all is good.

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post #99 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 10:56 AM
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A user in the UK HD1 group reports the color issues Gregr identified.
Also the strange effect where it seems to reverse it self at random, making it hard to do corrections?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...&postcount=999

Tom Sites has been a great resource, looking forward to his comments on this. Is it a firmware or a hardware issue? Can users update the firmware?

Is this an issue that we should consider not taking delivery until more info is posted by JVC or is it just minor?


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post #100 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Doesn't really matter what the theory is or what anyone reads, writes, observes or thinks is best, the most important factor is, the picture/system you have, needs to look good to you. If you are happy with the picture, all is good.

Glen

That was my original point that there's no right or wrong and that "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". However some don't believe their eyes and require a numerical answer.

Dazzer
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post #101 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I'll give you my impressions when the RS-1s gets here Monday. I'm using a 127" Firehawk in a room with light walls and often put sports on during the day (with some light control). The picture does wash out a bit when viewing during the day but the picture is easily watchable. I'm presently using the Ruby and will compare it to the RS-1 when it arrives.

Jim


Thank you. It would be great to get first hand user impressions.
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post #102 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The format of DVI-D is RGB, therefore most all DVI outputs will be digital RGB.

gregr,
"I found last night that the color matrix mismatching (listed in the first post of this thread) can change from one power up to another. The digital RGB problem shifted from HD to SD signals when I powered up the projector last night." Are you saying that the internal color decoder is shifting between 601/709 in HD resolution input settings with digital RGB input? If so, does this mean that the projector is converting RGB to YCbCr processing it and converting back to RGB for display?

Answered in other thread
gregr - "The projector's internal processing uses YCbCr signals (as do virtually all projectors and video processors). Therefore, the projector must convert incoming RGB signals to YCbCr, process them in YCbCr, and then convert them back to RGB to drive the LCoS panels. It is the RGB-to-YCbCr and YCbCr-to-RGB conversions that provide the opportunity to use mixed (Rec 601 and Rec 709) conversion matrices.

GlenC & gregr: might I ask a specific user question that might offer insights to others with similar signal paths? (I am posting here having also read you guys answers in the 2 part review thread)

Currently, I have a Toshiba HD-D1 (firmware upgraded) (input to IF 7210 until RS1 arrives)

Signal path is HDMI>DVI >Outlaw 990 pre/pro DVI>HDMI (cable) >PJ

Might I have any problem with HD DVDs since the signal is adapted to DVI & back to HDMI (for the purpose of using a pre/pro as a video switcher)?

Same question, with SD DVDs?

Same question, with OTA HD broadcast? (Dish 942 (OTA signal) HDMI>DVI same as HD-D1)

Since the RS1 will have 2 HDMI inputs, should I isolate the Toshiba on its own HDMI cable?
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post #103 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

The 1st with 25 pixels cut of the side was 576p and the 2nd was 576i where 40 pixels were cut of the sides. I believe it was done via HDMI.

I take it you don't test for PAL material so does this issue also occur with 480i and 480p? Lastly is there an option forthcoming to turn this off.

I normally don't test 50 Hz formats. Ekkehart does an excellent job covering that, and I simply don't have time to take 50 Hz measurements and do viewing evaluations at 50 Hz.

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I can't explain why these numbers differ from Ekkehart's, but perhaps there is a difference in the projector's firmware. He received an HD-1 much earlier than I received an RS-1.

I don't know of any plans for JVC to provide a zero overscan mode for SD formats. There is zero overscan for 1080i/p.

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #104 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

It is all written in the review. The source has no Overscan, so it is not the player. The patterns are not from AVIA...


Regards,
Ekkehart

Sorry Ekkehart, I don't read German. Is there an English version now (not one of those automatically translated versions.) The patterns in the jpg posted by Spizz looked to me like Guy Kuo's patterns. Who's patterns are they?

Greg Rogers
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post #105 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I normally don't test 50 Hz formats. Ekkehart does an excellent job covering that, and I simply don't have time to take 50 Hz measurements and do viewing evaluations at 50 Hz.

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I can't explain why these numbers differ from Ekkehart's, but perhaps there is a difference in the projector's software. He received an HD-1 much earlier than I received an RS-1.

I don't know of any plans for JVC to provide a zero overscan mode for SD formats. There is zero overscan for 1080i/p.


I assume the overscan is on component inputs as well at these resolutions?

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #106 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I obtained the same results (within the tolerances Greg listed) yesterday with an RS1 and an Oppo 970HD using Avia Pro.

Enjoy!

Mike
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post #107 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I normally don't test 50 Hz formats. Ekkehart does an excellent job covering that, and I simply don't have time to take 50 Hz measurements and do viewing evaluations at 50 Hz.

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I can't explain why these numbers differ from Ekkehart's, but perhaps there is a difference in the projector's firmware. He received an HD-1 much earlier than I received an RS-1.

I don't know of any plans for JVC to provide a zero overscan mode for SD formats. There is zero overscan for 1080i/p.

Thanks Greg for the detailed reply and for testing 576i/p. Glad to see it isn't as dramatic on the RS-1.
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post #108 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLT View Post

A user in the UK HD1 group reports the color issues Gregr identified.
Also the strange effect where it seems to reverse it self at random, making it hard to do corrections?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...&postcount=999

Tom Sites has been a great resource, looking forward to his comments on this. Is it a firmware or a hardware issue? Can users update the firmware?

Is this an issue that we should consider not taking delivery until more info is posted by JVC or is it just minor?

I'll leave the first couple of questions to the experts, but regarding the last, if the issues that have come to light will have a severe impact on you in your setup, you may want to wait until it is resolved to purchase. Nobody here can make that decision for you.

Personally, I will not be affected by any of these issues in any way whatsoever, as I will be sending nothing but 1080p signals to the pj anyway, so for my own selfish use, it means little whether it is resolved quickly. For the sake of others who will be affected by the issues, I hope for a speedy resolution regardless.

Disclaimer: Totally biased RS1 fanclown...cannot be relied upon for any type of objectivity regarding same. You have been warned.
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post #109 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 04:06 PM
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Hey MikeSRC: Did you notice the light corners issue that is being discussed in the Ultimate SHoot out thread?

Thanks
Peter
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post #110 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 04:51 PM
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No, I didn't. Nor did the person who had the projectors in for review. In fairness, I only spent about an hour with the projector and while it was in a dark room, it was far from bat cave conditions, so it may not have been noticeable in those conditions.

Enjoy!

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post #111 of 8752 Old 03-03-2007, 07:46 PM
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MikeSRC,

Any testing of the Oppo 970 vs the 981 with the RS1? What were your impressions of the 970HD / RS1 combo?

Regards,
Dom
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post #112 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLT View Post

A user in the UK HD1 group reports the color issues Gregr identified.
Also the strange effect where it seems to reverse it self at random, making it hard to do corrections?

Tom Sites has been a great resource, looking forward to his comments on this. Is it a firmware or a hardware issue? Can users update the firmware?

Jack, you must have missed my post on page 2 of this thread.

"More importantly, I was notified this morning that JVC engineers in Japan have identified the cause (firmware bug) of the matrix mismatch problem. They will give me an update on Monday. I suspect the firmware can be updated through the RS-232 port on the rear of the projector, but I won't know that for sure until next week ... JVC is taking care of this very professionally."

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #113 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 04:21 AM
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gregr - Thanks, glad its just a firmware update needed.

Look forward to the answer about allowing user firmware updates.

Problem is on Monday, I'm expecting the dealer to have my unit in,
not sure if I should give up my spot or not...


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post #114 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 07:47 AM
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Its great to hear JVC is taking measures to address this firmware bug immediately - very reassuring and much appreciated.

While they are at it I wonder if they will also fix the issue about PC vs Video levels of HDMI that has been reported - or is this related to that?
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post #115 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Sorry Ekkehart, I don't read German. Is there an English version now (not one of those automatically translated versions.) The patterns in the jpg posted by Spizz looked to me like Guy Kuo's patterns. Who's patterns are they?



Our translator works on one

Greetings,
Ekkehart
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post #116 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I normally don't test 50 Hz formats. Ekkehart does an excellent job covering that, and I simply don't have time to take 50 Hz measurements and do viewing evaluations at 50 Hz.

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I can't explain why these numbers differ from Ekkehart's, but perhaps there is a difference in the projector's firmware. He received an HD-1 much earlier than I received an RS-1.

I don't know of any plans for JVC to provide a zero overscan mode for SD formats. There is zero overscan for 1080i/p.



576i we tested over analog YCbCr, as the HDMI 576i is not really usable right now due these scaling artefacts. Analog, we had this huge overscan.


Regards,
Ekkehart
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post #117 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DomNY View Post

MikeSRC,

Any testing of the Oppo 970 vs the 981 with the RS1? What were your impressions of the 970HD / RS1 combo?

Regards,
Dom

I only was able to try the 970 with the RS1. Since the high overscan eliminates using 480i with the 970, I would expect that feeding the RS1 1080p from the 981 will be the better way to go. Once I actually get an RS1 in-house, I'll be able to make that determination.

Enjoy!

Mike
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post #118 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess it is still to early to determine whether or not the RS1 would really benefit from an outboard VP until JVC issues the firmware upgrade. It would seem that a VP such as a Crystalio 2 wouldn't normally provide much benefit with the RS1 since it has Gennum processing built in (other than the C2 providing other features such as anamorphic stretch for a CIH setup etc.). Am I right?
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post #119 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I guess it is still to early to determine whether or not the RS1 would really benefit from an outboard VP until JVC issues the firmware upgrade. It would seem that a VP such as a Crystalio 2 wouldn't normally provide much benefit with the RS1 since it has Gennum processing built in (other than the C2 providing other features such as anamorphic stretch for a CIH setup etc.). Am I right?

Some VPs have LUT access although they will not fix the shading errors.
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post #120 of 8752 Old 03-04-2007, 10:18 AM
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My HD1 showed a little 'bright' cornering when I looked at it at the dealer. Top left stood a little more out then the others. This was with the projector at it's feet.

Now it's dangling from the ceiling and at my place the screen is now about even. The 'brighter' corners are now below and far less obvious. I guess most of it is now reflected down and less obvious.
Fade to black is a non issue for me, during fade to black it's black. Only if the last light is gone my eyes adjust and the screen shows a very mild glow. It's far less then any projector I have seen so far.

Had to re-adjust the pixel shift again now the projector is upside down. Convergence is dead on no CA in the corners. No dead or stuck pixels.

Only from a very short distance pixels become noticable (<2ft ) Between the pixels I see very thin dark lines with no blending between pixels.
A slight defocus might be the ticket to have no SDE at all beyond a 2ft viewing distance.
Zoom and sharpness + lens shift are a bit fiddly.

Contrast will improve further when the cc filter arrives. PJ is already calibrated through one of the coler temp user settings.

Screen is 2.8 meter wide and gain is about 1.4.
Image is plenty bright. Bright flashes in dark scenes causing me to flinch.

Loudness. I low hum lower than I am accustomed to.

The landscape scenes in King Kong (HD) are astonishing.

Perfect images from only 4 meter viewing distance.
Frank Derks is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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