Fixing the Oversaturation Problem in the JVC-RS1 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The only currently-available add-on option that I know of that offers this is the $4000 Crystalio processor, and even its tools are rather limited.

Why should be limited?
As far as I can read on the manual of the CII there is a complete set of RGB gain and RGB bias color controls.
Do you think this is not enough? If not why?
I am very interested in the CII because I have been thinking it was the definitive solution of the problem.
Anyway isn't the CII the best processor to add to the RS1 to fix its problems?
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post #272 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by francisford View Post

Why should be limited?
As far as I can read on the manual of the CII there is a complete set of RGB gain and RGB bias color controls.
Do you think this is not enough? If not why?
I am very interested in the CII because I have been thinking it was the definitive solution of the problem.
Anyway isn't the CII the best processor to add to the RS1 to fix its problems?

I am actively experimenting with the RS1 and a CII by making changes in:

(1) CII Saturation control which affects overall saturation of RGB. Unfortunately, there is not an independent saturation control for each color.

(2) CII RGB offsets and gains (Sect. 5.2.2 of the manual).

(3) CII Color and Tint control

(4) RS1 Color control

I've been taking a ton of measurements (SpyderTV Pro 2007) as I adjust each of these individually to try to get a handle on exactly what each is doing. I'm still learning and not ready to put up my findings. Any suggestions as to how to best approach the complexity of all of these variables would be greatly appreciated.

This Saturday my ISF calibrator is coming with his Accupel and Colorfacts to do a full calibration. I'm hopeful he will be able to sort all of this out.

Harry
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post #273 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 11:56 AM
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i don't think anyone should be advised to purchase a vp just to change the color of the rs1. that is too much money for any reasonable adult to spend for that purpose. if you already have a vp use it as you like. i was interested in the crystallio2 until i got my rs1. i have a vp made by dvdo, but it was removed from the video path since i got my rs1.
the colors must be close to where they should be. i say this because the imagery is just awesome to my/our/everybodies eyes. in fact i feel that after 50 hours or so there is less sunburnt look to light complected skin. i watched king kong just yesterday and the skin tones seemed like real life. i have never had any objectionable color. i have never even noticed neon green at all. the rs1 has always passed the wife test at my house. the rs1 is not perfect, but it is really very good. is it the best right now? i don't know, i'm not in the business so i don't think that i have that level of expertise, but i would bet it's one of the best dollar for dollar.
i think that jvc is finding life is hard at the top.
its a free country and anyone can say whatever. i just don't think someone should read this thread and go out and buy a new vp just to try to marginally improve on the color of their rs1.
use that money to have some fun outside in the springtime or buy some movies to watch with the rs1.
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post #274 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 12:53 PM
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As far as I can read on the manual of the CII there is a complete set of RGB gain and RGB bias color controls.
Do you think this is not enough? If not why?

The RGB Bias and Gain controls are for adjusting the gray scale, not for adjusting the color gamut. Apples and oranges.

Tom Huffman
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post #275 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

I am actively experimenting with the RS1 and a CII by making changes in:

(1) CII Saturation control which affects overall saturation of RGB. Unfortunately, there is not an independent saturation control for each color.

(2) CII RGB offsets and gains (Sect. 5.2.2 of the manual).

(3) CII Color and Tint control

(4) RS1 Color control

I've been taking a ton of measurements (SpyderTV Pro 2007) as I adjust each of these individually to try to get a handle on exactly what each is doing. I'm still learning and not ready to put up my findings. Any suggestions as to how to best approach the complexity of all of these variables would be greatly appreciated.

This Saturday my ISF calibrator is coming with his Accupel and Colorfacts to do a full calibration. I'm hopeful he will be able to sort all of this out.

Harry

First, as I've said many times now, the main "saturation control" is not really a saturation control. It's a color brightness or intensity control. If you lower this to affect saturation you will really screw up the color brightness. Second, as of the Oct., 2006 firmware update the Crystalio includes a control for "Primary Color Correction," which I assume includes separate controls for RGB. The user manual, which was written in Feb., 2006, has not been updated to reflect this. Check with PixelWorks tech support for details.

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post #276 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 01:56 PM
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[quote=TomHuffman]The Lumagen feature you mention allows you to adjust out any errors in the color decoder, which is a separate issue from the oversaturated gamut on this PJ.QUOTE]
That's not what I was told. The features say that it can control for red and green push. I assume that is oversaturation? The tech said sales are up esp. to control the saturation on the RS1. I asked specifically about oversaturation at that's the only thing I am interested in. No control for blue.

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post #277 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darryl b View Post

i don't think anyone should be advised to purchase a vp just to change the color of the rs1. that is too much money for any reasonable adult to spend for that purpose. if you already have a vp use it as you like. i was interested in the crystallio2 until i got my rs1. i have a vp made by dvdo, but it was removed from the video path since i got my rs1.
the colors must be close to where they should be. i say this because the imagery is just awesome to my/our/everybodies eyes. in fact i feel that after 50 hours or so there is less sunburnt look to light complected skin. i watched king kong just yesterday and the skin tones seemed like real life. i have never had any objectionable color. i have never even noticed neon green at all. the rs1 has always passed the wife test at my house. the rs1 is not perfect, but it is really very good. is it the best right now? i don't know, i'm not in the business so i don't think that i have that level of expertise, but i would bet it's one of the best dollar for dollar.
i think that jvc is finding life is hard at the top.
its a free country and anyone can say whatever. i just don't think someone should read this thread and go out and buy a new vp just to try to marginally improve on the color of their rs1.
use that money to have some fun outside in the springtime or buy some movies to watch with the rs1.

That's your opinion. I feel that the colors are the weak spot of the projector. Most people love boomy subs too. Both boomy subs and the measurements on this projector can be quantifed and have with the proper instruments.

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post #278 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:05 PM
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That's not what I was told. The features say that it can control for red and green push.

Red and green push are color decoding errors. Unfortunately, the distinction between color decoding errors and gamut errors are not well understood, as this thread amply shows. The Lumagen has had this feature for a very long time. Trust me, this is not what you need.

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post #279 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Red and green push are color decoding errors. Unfortunately, the distinction between color decoding errors and gamut errors are not well understood, as this thread amply shows. The Lumagen has had this feature for a very long time. Trust me, this is not what you need.

Wow!. I assumed that the tech would know. I'll call back and double check. The tech seemed very aware of the saturation issues with the JVC so I am baffled as to why he would give me misinformation. On my Lumagen thread, an HDQ owner says it does. Have you ever owned this piece?

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post #280 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Wow!. I assumed that the tech would know. I'll call back and double check. The tech seemed very aware of the saturation issues with the JVC so I am baffled as to why he would give me misinformation. On my Lumagen thread, an HDQ owner says it does. Have you ever owned this piece?

As I said, this distinction is not well understood. If the HDQ owner is using it this way he is screwing up his color without perhaps knowing it. I have not owned it, but this piece of equipment has been around for a long time and its capabilities in this regard are well-known.

This feature basically does just what the user Color/Tint control does, except it works for R and G independently. The reason it doesn't have a B control is that they assume you've already set your Color/Tint controls using a SMPTE color bar and a blue filter.

Color decoding errors are errors in color luminance (brightness, lightness, value, or intensity--use whatever term suits) not in color saturation.

I understand that everyone wants to solve this problem cheaply and easily by turning down the color control, using filters, using gray scale controls, or using color decoding controls. These adjustments are widely available, but they are not what you need.

What you need is a CMS, and this just isn't widely available. Implementing one that works properly is apparently expensive and not that easy. There are a couple of engineers out there I know of who have developed a stand-alone CMS, but they have not been brought to market and they may never. If customers keep complaining about this, then perhaps it will happen some day.

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post #281 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:32 PM
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Just got off the phone with tech. Told him everything you said. I was told that the HDQ should reasonably correct the JVC1 oversaturation. Said they are getting a lot of call about it. Without the numbers, because they do not have a JVC RS1 they are cautious. Told that he feels I do not have to wait for the Radiance but not 100% sure as all of the HDQ owners that have called about the JVC have not called back. The Radiance will do a better job but most will be happy with what the HDQ can do.

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post #282 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francisford View Post

As far as I can read on the manual of the CII there is a complete set of RGB gain and RGB bias color controls.
Do you think this is not enough? If not why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The RGB Bias and Gain controls are for adjusting the gray scale, not for adjusting the color gamut. Apples and oranges.

To expand on this, in order to desaturate one of the primaries, lets take the green one for example, you need to mix in a little bit of blue and red. This requires a matrix operation where the the original RGB values or some other input triplet like Y-PB-PR component video (although I probably have the name wrong) are combined to produce modified RGB output values. In a full matrix operation, all input values potentially affect all output values.

In contrast, RGB gain controls can be thought of as specifying a diagonal matrix. They operate on each of the red, green, or blue channels individually. For example the level of red has no affect on the level of green.

At least that is my undersanding. I trust someone will correct this if I am adding to, rather than reducing, the confusion.

BTW, Tom - thanks for your contributions to this thread.

Brent
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post #283 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:40 PM
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Just got off the phone with tech. Told him everything you said. I was told that the HDQ should reasonably correct the JVC1 oversaturation.

Did he acknowledge the difference between fixing color decoding errors and color saturation errors, or did he treat them as one and the same?

If the former, then which of these does the Lumagen control fix? If the latter, then he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's just trying to sell more product.

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post #284 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Did he acknowledge the difference between fixing color decoding errors and color saturation errors, or did he treat them as one and the same?

If the former, then which of these does the Lumagen control fix? If the latter, then he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's just trying to sell more product.

Call him yourself. I am tired of being told the same thing. 503-574-2211. He appeared to be well aware. If the JVC does in fact need a 4k processor to correct the oversaturationand I knew before hand, I would not have bought this projector.

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post #285 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Call him yourself. I am tired of being told the same thing. 503-574-2211. He appeared to be well aware. If the JVC does in fact need a 4k processor to correct the oversaturation and I knew before hand, I would not have bought this projector.

I understand your frustration, but I have no reason to call him. I don't own this projector. This is a technical matter and you are getting marketing hype. If all he tells you is that the HDQ will fix the color problem with the RS1, but does not respond specifically to the question I posed: "Does it have a color decoder adjustment or a color gamut adjustment?", then hang up the phone and look elsewhere.

BTW, the vast majority of (in fact virtually all) digital displays have oversaturated primaries. You may be over-reacting to this problem. All displays have trade-offs. I own the Sharp 20K. It has a CMS, so the color is perfect. However, it is not as bright as the RS1, it has rainbows for those who are sensitive to them (I'm not), and its on/off contrast is not as good. If you are looking for a projector that is perfect in every way then you will never be satisfied.

If, on the other hand, the oversaturated gamut on the RS1 really is a deal-breaker for you, then, yes, unfortunately, the Crystalio is the only game in town that I know of.

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post #286 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 04:48 PM
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sounds like its high time for a shoot-out.
maybe people with the resources will get this done. rs1, plus and minus vp, calibrated to the extent possible versus other "named" pjs calibrated with dialed in colors.
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post #287 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I understand your frustration, but I have no reason to call him. I don't own this projector. This is a technical matter and you are getting marketing hype. If all he tells you is that the HDQ will fix the color problem with the RS1, but does not respond specifically to the question I posed: "Does it have a color decoder adjustment or a color gamut adjustment?", then hang up the phone and look elsewhere.

BTW, the vast majority of (in fact virtually all) digital displays have oversaturated primaries. You may be over-reacting to this problem. All displays have trade-offs. I own the Sharp 20K. It has a CMS, so the color is perfect. However, it is not as bright as the RS1, it has rainbows for those who are sensitive to them (I'm not), and its on/off contrast is not as good. If you are looking for a projector that is perfect in every way then you will never be satisfied.

If, on the other hand, the oversaturated gamut on the RS1 really is a deal-breaker for you, then, yes, unfortunately, the Crystalio is the only game in town that I know of.

AVS gives very good prices. Lumagen says the Radiance will have a better color control but not on the first units which will need a firmware upgrade. The AVS pre-buy price on the Radiance is very good. If you combine the pre-buy price of the RS1 and the the pre-buy price of the Radiance, that is a price that I consider more than fair for performance that will last me several years and less I believe than what I could get the Sharp for considering a discount. Of all the brands, Sharp has produced projectors that most consistently meet my expectations though. They seem like THEY know what they are doing.

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post #288 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I just posted this over at the PixelMagic forum. Hopefully, we'll get a reasonable answer:

"In a thread on AVS forum a member posted the following:

"First, as I've said many times now, the main "saturation control" is not really a saturation control. It's a color brightness or intensity control. If you lower this to affect saturation you will really screw up the color brightness. Second, as of the Oct., 2006 firmware update the Crystalio includes a control for "Primary Color Correction," which I assume includes separate controls for RGB. The user manual, which was written in Feb., 2006, has not been updated to reflect this. Check with PixelWorks tech support for details."

Could someone please explain the use of the Saturation Control...and whether the C2 has "Primary Color Correction" with separate controls for RGB.

Basically, the RS-1 has oversaturation of Blue and Green....but not Red.

How can I reduce the saturation of Blue and Green without affecting Red?

Thanks,
Harry"
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post #289 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 06:25 PM
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Regarding the upcoming Lumagen Radiance processor, see
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9163540

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post #290 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Basically, the RS-1 has oversaturation of Blue and Green....but not Red.

Harry,
This is the second time today I've seen you post this. I'd like to point out that red is also oversaturated and often more so than blue. Also, while blue might be oversaturated, it isn't as disturbing or as noticeable as red and green. If given the opportunity to only fix two of the three primaries, I'd certanly want control over red and green before blue with this PJ.
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post #291 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 07:30 PM
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Look again at all the RS1 CIE charts Harry. Blue is by far the least over saturated primary.

EDIT: Oops, someone's quicker and doesn't answer phones when posting.
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post #292 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Harry,
This is the second time today I've seen you post this. I'd like to point out that red is also oversaturated and often more so than blue. Also, while blue might be oversaturated, it isn't as disturbing or as noticeable as red and green. If given the opportunity to only fix two of the three primaries, I'd certanly want control over red and green before blue with this PJ.

Oops...sorry guys. But the blue on mine has a heck of a lot of pop. And when I look at the RGB convergence pattern from the service menu...it's the blue that's most notable and definitely more pronounced than red or green. I'll need to set my CS2 and projector adjustments back to flat to get a sense of what is going on.
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post #293 of 303 Old 04-23-2007, 09:13 PM
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I appears to me that based on this thread in the Crystalio II forum that the tools on the CII are not very useful for adjusting this problem after all.

http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum...ead.php?t=2518

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post #294 of 303 Old 04-24-2007, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Regarding the upcoming Lumagen Radiance processor, see
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9163540

Ok, I read it. Nothing that I see that would cause me concern. In your opinion, will this unit be able to correct the oversaturation of the RS1? Since the RS1 has a wider color space, it would appear that the answer is yes?

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post #295 of 303 Old 04-24-2007, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Ok, I read it. Nothing that I see that would cause me concern. In your opinion, will this unit be able to correct the oversaturation of the RS1? Since the RS1 has a wider color space, it would appear that the answer is yes?

It appears that the Crystalio II has controls for adjusting the Hue of RGB individually (though one user reported an unsatisfactory result with this) and a true saturation control, though it is global, not individualized for RGB.

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post #296 of 303 Old 04-25-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It appears that the Crystalio II has controls for adjusting the Hue of RGB individually (though one user reported an unsatisfactory result with this) and a true saturation control, though it is global, not individualized for RGB.

My question was about the Lumagen Radiance. That is the one that I intend to buy. The link you provided was about a discusssion of it.

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post #297 of 303 Old 04-25-2007, 08:22 AM
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Well it doesn't exist yet, so it's hard to say anything definitive about it.

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post #298 of 303 Old 04-25-2007, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

My question was about the Lumagen Radiance. That is the one that I intend to buy. The link you provided was about a discusssion of it.

Although the Lumagen Radiance will supposedly have "primary" color correction ability, statements like this from Lumagen would make me a bit concerned:

Quote:


Yes, we plan on having primary correction. This may not be until after production release, but we will get it in as soon as we can.

What does "get it in as soon as we can" mean? The fact that the Radiance will be released without this ability OOTB makes me believe that it will require a lot more development before they add the feature.

In other words, you could be waiting a while!
Rob Tomlin is offline  
post #299 of 303 Old 04-25-2007, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I continue to follow this thread with interest. Last night, I continued my work with the Crystalio 2, and while many have been negative about its ability to correct the saturation problem, I have found that by reducing the global saturation by -25 and running a new CIE.......red and blue are near perfect....and green is SUBSTANTIALLY improved.

Also, I should note that PixelMagic is considering the addition of independent control for saturation, which would be ideal.

Chuck Williams, an excellent ISF calibrator is coming on saturday. After we've completed our work...I'll post all the data.
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post #300 of 303 Old 04-25-2007, 11:44 AM
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Harry

You simply cannot look at your CIE gamut and call it near perfect. You are missing the third dimension Y - CIE is just your xy which is your color without brightness. Video is mastered to specific brightness levels for colors - if they are not correct the colors will be dim or glowing.

So before you declare anything perfect - take your Y readings. Tom has posted the standard values for SD/HD several times.

Also look at Hugh2's CC filter thread for info on how to use CIELCH rather than CIExyY which better matches what you percieve vs. what you measure. Once you do this you will realize that creating error in color brightness is worse than reducing error in color gamut - eyes do not see color saturation - they sees color strength (Chroma) which combines saturation and brightness. If the colors are the right color but the wrong brightness - your eye still sees them as the wrong colors.
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