Fixing the Oversaturation Problem in the JVC-RS1 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 303 Old 04-07-2007, 09:16 AM
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How serious is this saturation problem? How noticable is it if you compare the RS1 with the Pearl or Epson TW1000, Mitsubishi HC5000 etc etc?
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post #92 of 303 Old 04-07-2007, 12:59 PM
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Digital projectors suffer from color period i think. Most look too cartoony and cant display deep lush green and accurate skin tones. Plasma is the only tech that competes with crt's in that area. I dont know if lasers is the answer, but phosphor technology is the only one that has proven itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor
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post #93 of 303 Old 04-07-2007, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

How serious is this saturation problem? How noticable is it if you compare the RS1 with the Pearl or Epson TW1000, Mitsubishi HC5000 etc etc?

The Epson TW1000 doesn't suffer from this problem, at least post-calibration. It has a nice CMS that allows you to adjust it out and get virtually perfect color.

The problem in the other PJs you mention is certainly noticeable, especially when compared to a reference. How serious it is depends upon how sensitive you are to color inaccuracies.

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post #94 of 303 Old 04-07-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Digital projectors suffer from color period i think. Most look too cartoony and cant display deep lush green and accurate skin tones. Plasma is the only tech that competes with crt's in that area. I dont know if lasers is the answer, but phosphor technology is the only one that has proven itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

Cartoony generally relates to over saturated colors which LCDs have long been renown for, and now the trend seems to be going in that direction again for some reason (probably a marketing gimmick). Some DLPs under saturated the green to get more lumens so that was a choice rather than a limit of the technology. Those that chose accuracy were able to produce an accurate gamut. They're also capable of producing flatter greyscale reproduction too. Fixed pixel displays also need attention to detail to be set up correctly, and in some cases simply reducing the colour saturation control would fix any obvious over saturation. Many image problems are often down to set up.

PAL/NTSC gamuts were limited by the phosphor that was available at the time, and some CRTs were equally unable to produce an accurate green. Without colour filters, even CRTs had colour accuracy problems so it's not true to say that they are capable of accurate colours and fixed pixel displays are not.

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post #95 of 303 Old 04-07-2007, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

How serious is this saturation problem? How noticable is it if you compare the RS1 with the Pearl or Epson TW1000, Mitsubishi HC5000 etc etc?

Depends on how particular you are. Unfortunately, I have no long term experience with any of the other projectors you mentioned...so I cannot compare.

I would put it like this. There is a good bit of added "pop" to the blues and greens...and a slight bit of added pop to the reds.

I've now dialed down the overall saturation with a Crystalio II and the colors are veriable tolerable. I'm sure the will be better after an ISF calibration at the end of the month.

For those wondering about the extent of the color problem....let me say that I ordered a 2nd RS1 for my downstairs system.
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post #96 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Depends on how particular you are. Unfortunately, I have no long term experience with any of the other projectors you mentioned...so I cannot compare.

I would put it like this. There is a good bit of added "pop" to the blues and greens...and a slight bit of added pop to the reds.

I've now dialed down the overall saturation with a Crystalio II and the colors are veriable tolerable. I'm sure the will be better after an ISF calibration at the end of the month.

For those wondering about the extent of the color problem....let me say that I ordered a 2nd RS1 for my downstairs system.

Surely this seeming lack of adjustability could be changed with future firmware revisions, could it not?
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post #97 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Surely this seeming lack of adjustability could be changed with future firmware revisions, could it not?

Would require the development of a color management system as well that would be added via a firmware update. Problem is it is expensive to develope a CMS so it may not happen.

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post #98 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Surely this seeming lack of adjustability could be changed with future firmware revisions, could it not?

Here's my opinion. Take it or leave it:

1. JVC has NO interest in reducing the color "problem." They have LOTS of experience in how to sell TV's and Projectors....and one only needs to look at a JVC TV at Circuit City to understand that. For every one of us that wants accurate colors...there are hundreds of non-videophile viewers who will say..."Wow...those reds and greens are AWESOME!!!".

2. At the price point for this projector, my guess is that JVC thinks it's just fine. I'm sure they made a conscious decision not to give full access to every aspect of the Gennum chip. That will be reserved for more expensive JVC projectors.

3. Maybe we're just expecting too much in a 5K projector.
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post #99 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Here's my opinion. Take it or leave it:

1. JVC has NO interest in reducing the color "problem." They have LOTS of experience in how to sell TV's and Projectors....and one only needs to look at a JVC TV at Circuit City to understand that. For every one of us that wants accurate colors...there are hundreds of non-videophile viewers who will say..."Wow...those reds and greens are AWESOME!!!".

2. At the price point for this projector, my guess is that JVC thinks it's just fine. I'm sure they made a conscious decision not to give full access to every aspect of the Gennum chip. That will be reserved for more expensive JVC projectors.

3. Maybe we're just expecting too much in a 5K projector.


From everything I have read about this, it sounds like everyone has to see this for themselves and decide if they like this or not. Obviously some people dont like it, while others prefer it. Just because it is not technically accurate does not mean it is not more impressive to some. It reminds me of subwoofer calibration. The purist will have to have the sub flat, but many people will prefer to leave a room induced hump in the lower region to get some more impact and make things more impressive (subjectively).

The bad thing is that if you dont like the saturated colors, you cant change it (atleast not without external means). I am hoping for myself that I feel the same way about the saturated colors that I do about an emphasized low end on LFE (I prefer to leave in the hump I have in the low end as it is much more impressive to me personally, atleast for movies. Music I do prefer it almost completely flat).

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post #100 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Would require the development of a color management system as well that would be added via a firmware update. Problem is it is expensive to develope a CMS so it may not happen.

I guess I will have to see it. As to the cost, didn't projectors like the Hitachi TX100 and the TX200 that I own have this adjustability or am I missing something?
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post #101 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Here's my opinion. Take it or leave it:

1. 3. Maybe we're just expecting too much in a 5K projector.

I paid 2.5k for my last projector and it had those controls.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #102 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

I guess I will have to see it. As to the cost, didn't projectors like the Hitachi TX100 and the TX200 that I own have this adjustability or am I missing something?

Yes, I mean additional cost over what JVC has already spent. I think Wet1 hit the nail on the head about the colors. I once had a cousin come over and listen to what most be about 60k of audio equipment and ask me where the bass was. He was really disappointed that my stuff was not loud and booming. He asked me why I paid so much for a system with such little bass. I have dual Martin Logan Decent subs but very good bass traps. I have been down this road before with a company being sold. The problem is that you have to have someone approve the spending for further product developement. Usually the first thing the new buyer does is freeze spending. In my past experience the company froze everything and sold off the profitable stuff to a mass market Chinese company.

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post #103 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

I guess I will have to see it. As to the cost, didn't projectors like the Hitachi TX100 and the TX200 that I own have this adjustability or am I missing something?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I paid 2.5k for my last projector and it had those controls.

Cool....but those projectors likely DON'T have the contrast ratio of the RS-1. My point is that it's up to the manufacturer to decide what features they are going to include in a projector at a given price point. And even without a full CMS, the RS-1 is a landmark product.
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post #104 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

. And even without a full CMS, the RS-1 is a landmark product.

I agree. I am just going to buy a scaler.

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post #105 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I agree. I am just going to buy a scaler.

Good....i don't think you will at all be disappointed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Good....i don't think you will at all be disappointed.

Even though you don't know what scaler he is going to buy?!


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Even though you don't know what scaler he is going to buy?!

Good point, Rob. Let's hope he gets one that does the job.
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post #108 of 303 Old 04-08-2007, 10:17 PM
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Anything in the iScan HD+ to help with the oversaturation?
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post #109 of 303 Old 04-09-2007, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Here are the results from a Sony CRT. You have to use a little imagination here, because the color is not oversaturated to begin with.

Rec. 709 standard for red
x .640
y .330
Y .213

Hi Tom,

What are the Y values of blue and green according to Rec. 709?

How about the Y values of RGB according to Rec. 601?

Thanks,

JM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I agree. I am just going to buy a scaler.

Just be careful for which goal you plan to use this scaler. I was amazed that a direct comparison between the JVC AX2 (Reon VX chip) and SDI+Crystallio II (Gennum VXP chip) showed the AX2 handled noise much better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph MAK View Post

Hi Tom,

What are the Y values of blue and green according to Rec. 709?

How about the Y values of RGB according to Rec. 601?

Thanks,

JM

Rec. 601-------x-------y-------Y
R--------------0.630---0.340---0.212
G--------------0.310---0.595---0.701
B--------------0.155---0.070---0.087
C--------------0.231---0.326---0.788
Y--------------0.421---0.507---0.914
M--------------0.314---0.161---0.299
White----------0.313---0.329---1

Rec. 709-------x-------y-------Y
R--------------0.640---0.330---0.213
G--------------0.300---0.600---0.715
B--------------0.150---0.060---0.072
C--------------0.225---0.329---0.787
Y--------------0.419---0.505---0.928
M--------------0.321---0.154---0.285
White----------0.313---0.329---1

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post #112 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Fixing the saturation problem with the Crystalio has been a bit confusing. I currently have the "saturation" control which is a single slider dialed down to -15. This improved the overall situation, but I would like to independently adjust the 3 colors....as now the blues and reds look better, but the greens appear a bit washed out. I asked pixelmagic if there was a way to independently adjust RGB and got the following:

On 4/10/07 4:19 AM, "LiOn@pixelmagicsystems.com" wrote:

> Yes, the Crystalio has separate R/G/B saturation Output level adjust.
>
> li.
>
> Quoting "Harry A. Brandt, M.D." :
>
>> Can it adjust the saturation individually for each color?
>> ___
>> Harry A. Brandt, M.D.

Can someone explain to me how I can independently adjust the saturation of R, G, and B?? I only see the one control which appears to adjust saturation of all 3 colors.

Thanks for your help.
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post #113 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 06:54 AM
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A particular digital projector may be a landmark, but it should not be treated as a classic. All digital projectors quickly become aged relics, not classics to be tweaked..

Although certain internet resellers are routinely selling video processors for huge huge discounts, does it make any sense to invest in a video processor to provide more accurate colors for the RS1. Unless you buy something like the Radiance which will allow for processing chip upgrades (use of better chips as they come along, you will have two aging processors, one in the projector and one in the VP. If you buy a VP, you should buy it for multiple reasons (switching, gamma correction, better this or that, not just because you want to try and fix the colors on your new baby. You probably need a pro to do it anyway, raising your epenses again. Remember, the RS1 baby will quickly grow up and not be as cute or as desirable as the next new baby. But it yours, right, keep posting those pictures of what your baby does. Please.

Coming FPss will have better on/off and ANSI contrast, be brighter, yada yada. The cries will be, I didn't realize how important that was. Yada. Yada. I wanna buy it as soon as someone buys my RS1. Some will say, I was smart, I sold my RS1 early. Used my old unsellable projector till they actually delivered the new one. Betcha Ric puts his up for sale late August.

Rather than invest in a VP to fix the colors, I think one would be far better off to sell the RS1 off in 6 months for a small loss and invest in the next holy grail projector which will easily surpass the RS1. Don't give me any crap, it's good enough for me. That's what you said last time. Common. Most really don't care about the nth degree in color accracy, Most wouldn't even know about the color problems unless they were told here. What. It's bad. Holy crap, why doesn't JVC fix it. My oh my. Gotta get me a VP.It is indeed bad, but you wouldn't have even ben aware of it without the additional knowledge. You would have been happy, now your upset and unsastisfied. Just think how unsastified you will be when the next great baby comes out.

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post #114 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

A particular digital projector may be a landmark, but it should not be treated as a classic. All digital projectors quickly become aged relics, not classics to be tweaked..

Although certain internet resellers are routinely selling video processors for huge huge discounts, does it make any sense to invest in a video processor to provide more accurate colors for the RS1. Unless you buy something like the Radiance which will allow for processing chip upgrades (use of better chips as they come along, you will have two aging processors, one in the projector and one in the VP. If you buy a VP, you should buy it for multiple reasons (switching, gamma correction, better this or that, not just because you want to try and fix the colors on your new baby. You probably need a pro to do it anyway, raising your epenses again. Remember, the RS1 baby will quickly grow up and not be as cute or as desirable as the next new baby. But it yours, right, keep posting those pictures of what your baby does. Please.

Coming FPss will have better on/off and ANSI contrast, be brighter, yada yada. The cries will be, I didn't realize how important that was. Yada. Yada. I wanna buy it as soon as someone buys my RS1. Some will say, I was smart, I sold my RS1 early. Used my old unsellable projector till they actually delivered the new one. Betcha Ric puts his up for sale late August.

Rather than invest in a VP to fix the colors, I think one would be far better off to sell the RS1 off in 6 months for a small loss and invest in the next holy grail projector which will easily surpass the RS1. Don't give me any crap, it's good enough for me. That's what you said last time. Common. Most really don't care about the nth degree in color accracy, Most wouldn't even know about the color problems unless they were told here. What. It's bad. Holy crap, why doesn't JVC fix it. My oh my. Gotta get me a VP.It is indeed bad, but you wouldn't have even ben aware of it without the additional knowledge. You would have been happy, now your upset and unsastisfied. Just think how unsastified you will be when the next great baby comes out.

Mark: Your one size fits all cynical view just doesn't apply to the way I approach audio or video. I stuck with my Marantz VP12s2 for 4 or 5 years until I felt there was something sufficiently better at a reasonable price point. I'll tweak it (with the best VP I can find right now, and an ISF calibration) until I find the colors accurate and satisfying......and then I'll enjoy it for a few years. Your statement that people wouldn't notice the color issues might be true for some...but not for me. And sure, in 3 or 4 years I may move on to another projector...who knows.

Waiting around for the Radiance with its likely 6 months to a year of tweaking, FW upgrading, problems and resolutions just doesn't float my boat. And i've had lots of "upgradeable" products through the years.......that end up as boat anchors because a whole new platform emerges.

Also, I'm still enjoying my Martin Logan CLS IIz's on a daily basis. Got them about a decade ago and wouldn't consider swapping them out.

So I'm not sure I follow your point.
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post #115 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 07:56 AM
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Harry:

This is exactly what we've been discussing in this thread. Don't use the standard Color control to address this problem. Set Color using SMPTE color bars and a blue filter.

The Crystalio implemented a special tool for addressing oversaturated primaries in a October, 2006 firmware update that addresses R, G, and B saturation individually. Unfortunately, they haven't updated their manual since Feb. 2006, so I can't tell you exactly where it is, but it's there. Dig around the menu in the area where it has RGB Gamma adjustments.

BTW, this is a pet peave of mine. They have been consistently adding features with firmware updates since release, but they don't update their online documentation. Jez, is it that hard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Fixing the saturation problem with the Crystalio has been a bit confusing. I currently have the "saturation" control which is a single slider dialed down to -15. This improved the overall situation, but I would like to independently adjust the 3 colors....as now the blues and reds look better, but the greens appear a bit washed out. I asked pixelmagic if there was a way to independently adjust RGB and got the following:

On 4/10/07 4:19 AM, "LiOn@pixelmagicsystems.com" wrote:

> Yes, the Crystalio has separate R/G/B saturation Output level adjust.
>
> li.
>
> Quoting "Harry A. Brandt, M.D." :
>
>> Can it adjust the saturation individually for each color?
>> ___
>> Harry A. Brandt, M.D.

Can someone explain to me how I can independently adjust the saturation of R, G, and B?? I only see the one control which appears to adjust saturation of all 3 colors.

Thanks for your help.


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post #116 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 08:15 AM
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Harry. My point is that a projector is not like a speaker. Speaker designs usually evolve very incrementally.

My view is not that one size fits all. My point is that for many, it may make little to sense to invest $2 to $3K in a processor to fix the colors on a projector they paid less than $5K for. A projector isn't a classic. To some, invest in it, fix it, isf it, but be happy. Just like all those happy Pearl owners. what do they know? To each his own.

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post #117 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 09:40 AM
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The info that is missing from most of the posts complaining about the Primaries on the RS1 not meeting the standards, is that the same is true of most digital displays and has been since the beginning. Now all of the sudden there is this huge cry concerning this one display. It's ridiculous.

Get some perspective.

In the past, most digital PJs had very under saturated Green primaries (otherwise the PJs would be too dim). Blue has usually been very close to the standards. Red has been either under saturated or oversaturated depending on the particular PJ.

The Ruby and Pearl are in the same boat as the RS1, oversaturated primaries. Very few PJs have properly functioning CMS systems. If this is your major concern, then the solution is simple. Stop whining about the RS1 and buy one of them. (In fact, the Sharp 20K has a properly functioning CMS and it has pretty decent CR, too.)

JVC isn't going to "fix" the "problem". It was intentional. Get over it. The fix would involve redesigning the entire PJ, or creating a CMS system for it. Unfortunately, JVC decided eliminate the CMS (which they originally touted in their pre-production samples) from the RS1's feature set. There is almost no chance that they are going to add it now.

If this is a deal breaker for you, then you need to face reality. It isn't going to change. You need to restrict yourself to one of the few displays that has the ability to remap its primaries and hire an ISF tech who has the additional know how as to how do this for you.

Somebody mentioned plasmas. Many of them are the worst when it comes to having oversaturated primaries. The CMS systems that I have seen in plasmas do not allow you to remap the primaries and set their Lightness, which means these systems are worth very little and can't adequately fix their problem either.

Just how many millions of posts do I have to read repeating the same complaint over and over ad nauseum. It is one thing to discuss the problem and possible solutions, as is being done by some posters. It's quite another to exagerate the magnitude of the problem and to act like this is something unique that JVC has done. For those of you trying to assess just how big of deal this is, read GregR's review of the RS1 in WSR. He puts this issue into proper perspective. Reading the AVS threads on the RS1 does not.

I would expect that the vast majority of complainers are coming from displays that have primaries that are no more accurate than those in the RS1, and they don't even know it.

Glenn


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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

How serious is this saturation problem? How noticable is it if you compare the RS1 with the Pearl or Epson TW1000, Mitsubishi HC5000 etc etc?

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post #118 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 10:11 AM
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I agree.

Glenn

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My view is not that one size fits all. My point is that for many, it may make little to sense to invest $2 to $3K in a processor to fix the colors on a projector they paid less than $5K for. A projector isn't a classic. To some, invest in it, fix it, isf it, but be happy. Just like all those happy Pearl owners. what do they know? To each his own.

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post #119 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph MAK View Post

Hi Tom,

What are the Y values of blue and green according to Rec. 709?

How about the Y values of RGB according to Rec. 601?

Thanks,

JM

Displays decode NTSC/SDTV using Rec601 - though displays conventially target SMPTE-C primaries - NTSC primaries were obsolete mid-century for being unacheivable. Tom actually gave you SMPTE-C numbers as you don't want to use REC601 values to measure the display.

http://www.videoessentials.com/image..._c_ntsc_lg.jpg

Ironically Digital Cinema specs which JVC is not that far off from is closer to the original mid-century NTSC spec than HD/SD specs!
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post #120 of 303 Old 04-10-2007, 10:42 AM
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Mark,

"I think one would be far better off to sell the RS1 off in 6 months for a small loss and invest in the next holy grail projector which will easily surpass the RS1."

Why would people pay nearly new prices for the last Holy Grail?

And I think digital has finally arrived with the RS1, and that for most users (the normal market, not AVSers) the RS1 is an essentially perfect video device.

It's now like audio, where the biggest performance determinant in the equipment chain is the quality of the program material.

Noah
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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