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post #1 of 52 Old 04-16-2007, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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At NAB the Red.com "camera that could" is generating a lot of attention. The ability to record in 4k for under $35k loaded is a game changer. Well at NAB they let go of this tasty bit of info.

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The RED Digital Cinema tent is much bigger this year and the crowds are enormous! In the midst of the stampede to get to the RED booth at 9:am, I had the chance to sit down with Ted Schilowitz of RED and get the lowdown on the other RED scoops not covered in my RED @ NAB, Part 1 articleand they are eye-openers indeed:

1. RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera - a miniature camera. Ted couldn't give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.
2. RED is also developing a new line of 4k displays
3. RED is also developing a new 4k projector

With RED's completion of development of the RED One camera system, announcement of a new line of S35mm cine prime lenses, a new close focus 18-50mm cine zoom lens, Apple support for REDCODE, 4k display of the 4k REDCODE RAW footage shot by Peter Jackson, and now these new announcements above, RED seems to have placed all the pieces of a beginning-to-end workflow on the table.

The Peter Jackson footage is stunning: plane-to-plane footage with WW1-era biplanes, period war scenes, etc. Projected in 4k, it is really breathtaking stuff - lots of gasps and sighs in the crowd!

With shipping of the completed RED cameras just around the corner, RED Digital Cinema has now moved from being a we're going to build this company into a new status of a we have built this, and we're also going to build this company. What remains now is for the new RED camera, lenses, and accessories to be tested in the field by independent producers, directors, and cinematographers. That will happen immediately! (see below)

I only know of the Sony Projector thus far. Being that they speak of 4k projector s I'm thinking that there will be a market for 4k projectors revving up soon enough.

Now clearly if you simply watch Hollywood affair 4k might be overkill but perhaps there will be some benefits to watching current HD at large sizes via 4k projectors. At any rate I want to see them because at the rate things are going you'll be recording your children in better quality than what you'll see in Theaters.
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post #2 of 52 Old 04-16-2007, 09:13 PM
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JVC's published roadmap for new 4k panels also suggests that they will have a new 4k projector using wire grid polarizors and the new 20k:1 high contrast panel technology. Things could get interesting...
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post #3 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 04:24 AM
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This has been announced and in the "pipeline" for a couple of years. So long in fact that it is starting to look like vapor ware. The current prototype being shown still doesn't do 4K.
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post #4 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 08:31 AM
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But for home use, how long will it be before sources catch up with a 4K projector? We just got Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, and look how long that took.

$300 HDMI cables? P.T. Barnum would have been proud.
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post #5 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

JVC's published roadmap for new 4k panels also suggests that they will have a new 4k projector using wire grid polarizors and the new 20k:1 high contrast panel technology. Things could get interesting...

Mark,
We should be seeing this before but certainly by CEDIA.

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post #6 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 08:48 AM
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I suggest you read about Panorama labs and magneto photonic crystals. Panorama is hiring alot of people with long time digital cinema experience. Their 4k projector is due in 2008 with the prototype this year.

Any idea what kind of technology that 4k RED projector would use?

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post #7 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

I suggest you read about Panorama labs and magneto photonic crystals. Panorama is hiring alot of people with long time digital cinema experience. Their 4k projector is due in 2008 with the prototype this year.

Any idea what kind of technology that 4k RED projector would use?

I'll gladly look it up. I don't know what they plan on using and i'm really curious to know what technologies will come to the forefront regarding 4k. It's not just Red working on 4K acquisition. Dalsa just announced their Evolution camera as well. While 4k may not be ready until late this year or next year I'm sure 2008 will begin to spur the demand for display devices.
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post #8 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 07:13 PM
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This might be a great thing for filmmakers, for the simple reason it gives you more data to work with.
However, as a consumer, I couldn't care less. 1080P is already stretching the limit of the human eye's ability to resolve on my 90" screen at 10 feet.

I also agree with the "vaporware" comments. They have been hyping this forever.

Give me cheap 1080 3 CCD low-lux cameras and cheap computers and software capable of editing it, and watch the real filmmaking revolution begin.
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post #9 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

This might be a great thing for filmmakers, for the simple reason it gives you more data to work with.
However, as a consumer, I couldn't care less. 1080P is already stretching the limit of the human eye's ability to resolve on my 90" screen at 10 feet.

I also agree with the "vaporware" comments. They have been hyping this forever.

Give me cheap 1080 3 CCD low-lux cameras and cheap computers and software capable of editing it, and watch the real filmmaking revolution begin.

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?model...hId=119&page=1


Actually the RED ONE isn't Vaporware. At NAB they showed video captured by Peter Jackson and they say it looked great.

I agree that 1080p is going to be fine for consumers for quite some time. Although I'd love to see 4k become the new acquisition format because then it makes it easy to scale down to 1080p.

I hearing that many cinematographers aren't sold on HD achieving parity with film. I think even on a 10ft screen a 4k projector just might look fantastic if the source was from captured and edited 4K video.

Hopefully I'll get to see with my own eyes soon enough.
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post #10 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 08:10 PM
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How much are these 4K projectors going to cost... and do we really need $30,000 video processors to go with them?
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post #11 of 52 Old 04-17-2007, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Mark,
We should be seeing this before but certainly by CEDIA.

Art

I agreed not to say anything beyond the published roadmap, but 2007 does sound like an interesting year
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post #12 of 52 Old 04-18-2007, 01:56 AM
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The Red stuff is generally regarded with suspicion in the industry. When there is a camera sitting there and independent users report on it that's when it transitions from being mere vapourware.

4k is complete overkill on a 10 foot screen, I can see a use for 4k projectors for theater sized screens as 2k projection can alias when projected overly large , however the actual differences between 2k and 4k material are subtle on even large screens. About the most obvious difference I can think of is with trees...sometimes , other than that quite a lot of people ( including DOPs) complain about the more obvious grain structure at 4k.

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post #13 of 52 Old 04-18-2007, 04:24 AM
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Well 2538 x 1080 sounds like another good choice... Easier for the manufacturers too....
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post #14 of 52 Old 04-18-2007, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Well 2538 x 1080 sounds like another good choice... Easier for the manufacturers too....

Yeah I'm surprised that no manufacturers are supporting this yet. For LCOS manfacturers there will be a huge market gap between 1080p native projectors and 4k projectors. It seems like there is a sweet spot in the market between $10k and $20k for a bright projector with a little extra resolution for large CIH screens.
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post #15 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 09:30 AM
 
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http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/e...ion-252798.php

"For a while, Gizmodo had been wondering if the $17K Red On 4K camcorder was genuine or just another piece of vaporware. That's why we're glad to see the camera at NAB 07 in front of our faces"
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post #16 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet View Post

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/e...ion-252798.php

"For a while, Gizmodo had been wondering if the $17K Red On 4K camcorder was genuine or just another piece of vaporware. That's why we're glad to see the camera at NAB 07 in front of our faces"

They'll be posting the video from the 4k shoot done by Peter Jackson on prototype Red One cams soon.

Graeme Nattress (nattress.com) says that even at todays HT projection screen sizes there is a palpable improvement in cinema quality with 4k projection. Of course he's viewing on the Sony SXRD 4k projector most likely but if they are planning to deliver more than one projector and display it seems likely that they'll have a high end model and a more "affordable" model.

4k Digital is supposed to more closely approximate Film quality sans grain. As long as the video is pristine you can grade the video anyway you like.

I wouldn't mind seeing HD DVD/Blu-ray replaced in 10yrs with a 4k delivery product. It could be a niche product that is aimed at enthusiasts.

How many people here wouldn't pay extra for 4k movies (which would likely only be the best movies) to be projected in all their glory? Moving to HD resolution, to my eyes, really made a difference in clarity at larger sizes but it also came with a jump in color fidelity and clarity in the DoF. Background scenes that were mush in DVD suddenly sharpened up. There's no reason to not expect the same level of increase in a 4k production.
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post #17 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 10:23 AM
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"Background scenes that were mush in DVD suddenly sharpened up. There's no reason to not expect the same level of increase in a 4k production."

That depends on how much of the remaining lack of sharpness is due to depth of field of the lens, which I'd guess is the bigger factor.

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post #18 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:27 PM
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MR D, did I bump into you at Cinesite doing the Earth (Planet Earth feature film) scans ?

I spent a fair bit of time at the Red booth and I am convinced it's for real.

This not based on Peter Jackson's short but on the people that Jim Jannard has recruited from Stuart English (Panasonic) to David Macintosh (Accuscene viewfinder).

My professional interest in RED is in the post production workflow and Graeme has been very helpful. It's similar to RAW digital SLR workflow using Red Code RAW (4K RAW Bayer pattern wavelet compressed).

Peter Jackson's short looks very good, sharper than the Genesis shot Flyboys.

There are some little nit-picking issues where an under exposed shot was pushed too hard in the grade (colour correction) and an eagle eyed DoP spotted some dust on the sensor on a shot of the sky.

The images don't look as detailed as the 4K RGB scans of IMAX I have seen on the 4K Sony SXRD, to me they look closer to 2.5K+, which apparently is pretty close in theory to Bayer pattern sensor versus RGB.

You do have take a step back and remember that a good RED setup is Varicam/HDCAM money, compared to the cost of Genesis, D20, F23 and Viper.
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post #19 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Background scenes that were mush in DVD suddenly sharpened up. There's no reason to not expect the same level of increase in a 4k production."

That depends on how much of the remaining lack of sharpness is due to depth of field of the lens, which I'd guess is the bigger factor.


You know all this talk of 4k really annoys me. Take it from someone who works with it on a daily basis, its not that significant. As I've said most people with most imagery will not notice a significant difference. Certainly as a home format its complete overkill. If you thought the difference between 720p and 1080p was small you'll be picking fly poop out of pepper expecting a huge difference between 2k and 4k. I've even seen DOPs prefer a good 2k scan with a bit of good sharpening over a 4k scan.

I still think 720p with a better colourspace would be a better home format : 1k film colourspace material still looks better than 1080p video. Resolution only gets you so far.

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post #20 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:35 PM
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"You know all this talk of 4k really annoys me. "

Odd that the post you chose to respond to reinforces you're position.

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post #21 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalsafari View Post

MR D, did I bump into you at Cinesite doing the Earth (Planet Earth feature film) scans ?

I spent a fair bit of time at the Red booth and I am convinced it's for real.


You do have take a step back and remember that a good RED setup is Varicam/HDCAM money, compared to the cost of Genesis, D20, F23 and Viper.

Nope not me.

I'd love to see the RED become reality , but until its out there being used its still not on the map. I've seen products trailed about for years promising ground breaking performance so I'll wait and see.

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post #22 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"You know all this talk of 4k really annoys me. "

Odd that the post you chose to rant at reinforces you're position.

hardly a rant the only reason I tagged your post was to continue the discussion, the topic is primarily about the RED camera rather than 2k vs 4k.

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post #23 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:49 PM
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I'd love to see the RED become reality

Why? You just said, "its not that significant"
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post #24 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

You know all this talk of 4k really annoys me. Take it from someone who works with it on a daily basis, its not that significant. As I've said most people with most imagery will not notice a significant difference. Certainly as a home format its complete overkill. If you thought the difference between 720p and 1080p was small you'll be picking fly poop out of pepper expecting a huge difference between 2k and 4k. I've even seen DOPs prefer a good 2k scan with a bit of good sharpening over a 4k scan.

I still think 720p with a better colourspace would be a better home format : 1k film colourspace material still looks better than 1080p video. Resolution only gets you so far.

I don't get all the hype here on a consumer projection forum either. This is professional use equipment. Even if a consumer had a 4K projector, what are they going to view? Compressed ATSC or HD-DVD/BluRay? Hell those sources don't even rival uncompressed 1920x1080. It's going to be a long time before 4K resolution reaches broadcast or distribution on consumer media. There is not even a viable 4K professional projector yet. The Sony has a few problems that is holding it back.

And don't forget the studio's paranoia over content protection. They held up HD distristribution for years until they were satisfied with the proposed copy protection. Do you think they will just start dumping 4K content on the market the day somebody developes a viable 4K consumer playback platform?

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post #25 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Why? You just said, "its not that significant"

I said the differences between 2k and 4k are not that significant.The 2k RED camera isn't even out yet let alone a 4k version as I've said I'll defer judgement on that particular device till it actually materialises.

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post #26 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 02:59 PM
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"hardly a rant "

yes, you're right, I changed it

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post #27 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

I said the differences between 2k and 4k are not that significant.The 2k RED camera isn't even out yet let alone a 4k version as I've said I'll defer judgement on that particular device till it actually materialises.

Kodak who knows a little bit about film did some studies on this. They concluded that beyond the second row the difference between 2K and 4K digital projection is nil.

4K makes sense for archive and that's where it's presently being used. But so far most Hollywood executives and technical people maintain that 2K is more than sufficient for public projection. No matter how good the compression gets, 4K is exponentially twice the data of 2K. A lot to spend when the only seats that can see it are the last to be filled if at all.

I am surprised there is no thread on the Ultra HD booth at NAB. Now this was 4K for the future home theater and made 1920x1080 look like NTSC in comparision. They had a 4Kx3K 42in LCD panel. But still this is just a technology demonstration with no hint of a viable marketing plan.

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post #28 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

They had a 4Kx3K 42in LCD panel. But still this is just a technology demonstration with no hint of a viable marketing plan.

I realize it's just a technology demo, but does 4kx3k on a 42" display look much different from say 1365x768? I've always thought that even 1080p was overkill on a 42" display.
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post #29 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 03:24 PM
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I can see a place for 4k projection as I've said earlier in the thread. I just don't see a need for 4k as a delivery format. You can perceive an improvement with 4k but you really need to be overly familiar with the material for it to be noticable and thats just not the case with a viewing audience. Considering the associated hassle of a 4k pipeline it just doesn't make sense.

I don't know where the current drive for 4k pipelines is coming from..maybe a way to get the scanning and record rates back up to early 90's rates!

Moving to 4k as a domestic format makes even less sense... we're seriously veering into fruitcake territory here.

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post #30 of 52 Old 04-25-2007, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I don't get all the hype here on a consumer projection forum either. This is professional use equipment. Even if a consumer had a 4K projector, what are they going to view? Compressed ATSC or HD-DVD/BluRay? Hell those sources don't even rival uncompressed 1920x1080. It's going to be a long time before 4K resolution reaches broadcast or distribution on consumer media. There is not even a viable 4K professional projector yet. The Sony has a few problems that is holding it back.

And don't forget the studio's paranoia over content protection. They held up HD distristribution for years until they were satisfied with the proposed copy protection. Do you think they will just start dumping 4K content on the market the day somebody developes a viable 4K consumer playback platform?

I'm not worried about that. The excitement is over the ability to "affordably" capture 4k for indies. Plus the same company that is promoting this "former vaporware" unit is now working on 4k Displays and Projectors emphasis on the plurality.

The more content that is captured in 4k means that there will eventually be a thriving market for display. The whole Chicken/Egg scenario. I'm not overly concerned with what Hollywood is doing. They did like 25 movie remakes last year so clearly they aren't looking to push many envelopes.

As for the efficacy of 4k I think it's a natural evolution. It may look slightly better than 2k projection but I'd like to make that decision after viewing with my own set of eyes. All too often I read about people that don't want something done but often they simply do not have a way to capitalize from the thing they denigrate.

There should be some tangible benefits to 4k. However with high resolution audio going the way of the Dodo for MP3 it's looking more likely that consumers will remain happy with today's HD.

I still want the "lust" toys though.
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