New Epson EMP-TW2000 50.000:1 dynamic contrast - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1093 Old 09-06-2007, 05:49 PM
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Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond

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Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

Here is a video of the TW2000 at IFA:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2x...007_videogames

Damn, Epson sure seems confident about their lamp's function ! (2000 hours or 3 year warranty)

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post #92 of 1093 Old 09-06-2007, 05:55 PM
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I think that a lot of their confidence in the lamp, comes from that fact it's only a 170W lamp. Many projectors use much higher wattage lamps. No matter what's the lamp's efficiency, when the scene is dark, almost all of the lamp's wattage turns to heat inside the projector !
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post #93 of 1093 Old 09-06-2007, 06:33 PM
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Lower wattage lamps have died sooner and more often than 2000 hours, so it's all in the design of the bulb AND the projector I suppose. Who knows, but you cannot argue with the warranty. I think it's awesome. Buy the projector, sit back, and use it for a good 2 or 3 years and enjoy. Unless of course you have upgraditis disease. It's also nice to see good brightness and life without more watts. It's true that most of the 170 watts is space heating. Unfortunately, the lamp design isn't that good yet. I am looking forward to when lamps become very efficient indeed. Cooler, easier on the rest of the projector and less electricity use.

Here's some English including hopefully a downloadable brochure soon. The link just has the old stuff right now. There are some details and specs.

http://www.epson-europe.com/internet...0_EN.inter.jsp

Why the 12 bit panels but only 10 bit processing?
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post #94 of 1093 Old 09-06-2007, 08:47 PM
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Did I hear correctly on the video that she said the price would be $3500 EUR??? Which is about $4800 US dollars?? What happened to the $2699 price??

For that much, I think I'd rather go with an RS1.
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post #95 of 1093 Old 09-06-2007, 10:27 PM
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On a side note, the TW1000 had a 1700h/3y lamp warranty here, so it's great to see that they've extended it a little and also made it worldwide.

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Originally Posted by richwite View Post

Did I hear correctly on the video that she said the price would be $3500 EUR??? Which is about $4800 US dollars?? What happened to the $2699 price??

3500EUR here and $2699 there, isn't it fair.

But you have to remember that all prices quoted in euros have ~20%VAT included. That and a small "Europe extra" results in the usual 1:1 euro to usd ratio in prices.
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post #96 of 1093 Old 09-07-2007, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc2005 View Post

Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond

With a LiFi bulb? That would be cool.
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post #97 of 1093 Old 09-07-2007, 10:49 AM
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"My question is, what happens when the LCD tries to show an image other than 0 ire black?"

The LCD itself changes polarization.

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post #98 of 1093 Old 09-07-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
"My question is, what happens when the LCD tries to show an image other than 0 ire black?"

The LCD itself changes polarization.

Finally, some sense :-)

So, when an LCD pixel wants to produce 0 IRE black, it changes the polarization of light to the Y axis (to smash against the forward X axis polarizer) ?

What I still don't understand, is how can the LCD changes the polarization to the X axis, if there shoudn't be any light at the X axis to begin with (since the first polarizer only let light on the Y axis to pass)
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post #99 of 1093 Old 09-08-2007, 10:34 AM
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The optics let only one polarization pass; the LCD can polarize either way or in between.

Noah
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post #100 of 1093 Old 09-08-2007, 01:48 PM
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Quote:


The optics let only one polarization pass; the LCD can polarize either way or in between.

It works like this:

Lamp => Y axis polarizer => LCD => X axis polarizer.

If you want to create 0 IRE - the LCD should allow only light on the Y axis to pass. This should work because the X axis polarizer will get rid of this light.

If you want to create 100 IRE - I don't understand how this will work. if the LCD lets only light on the X axis pass, this wouldn't work, because there isn't any light on the X axis hitting the LCD (the first polarizer took care of it).

This model can only work, if the LCD can take light on the Y axis, and actively change its polarization to the X axis. This is the only way I can see in order to make light from the lamp, go past the X axis polarizer.

If the model was:

Lamp => Y axis polarizer => LCD

In this case, without the X-axis polarizer in front of the LCD, the LCD could work as a normal polarizer, and everything will make sense (at 0 IRE it let only light on the X axis to pass, and at 100 IRE it let only light on the Y axis to pass).
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post #101 of 1093 Old 09-08-2007, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc2005 View Post

Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond

When we have installed small Epsons (non-HT units), their build quality has always proved to be pretty robust. And since our use is typically 16 hours days, 365 a year, it is rather obvious when projectors don' tmeet that standard.

I would imagine their HT targeted units share that characteristic.

BB
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post #102 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 01:44 AM
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i really wish I could gather some reliable info on this unit. It is a very interesting projector that may very well be the "dark horse" of the show and provide a great picture for a fraction of the cost of some of the "more popular" contenders. My main concerns are in regard to ANSI contrast and lumens output in highest contrast mode and of course white field uniformity. With its full CMS I am confident that it will be able to deliver very accurate colors or at least have the ability to be dialed in properly.

This is a very interesting unit indeed!
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post #103 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello here is some information from the Japanese pages on the new Epson in Japanese.

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio/emptw2000/

It looks like it is has the possibility to adjust to right colors (both grayscale and gamut (full CMS)) and an adjustable gamma curve. Maybe JVC should hire some engineers from Epson : - )

For those that do not read Japanese (like me) here is a link to a translation tool…

Http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

PS Click into the eight "sub pages" to get a description of the features in more detail.
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post #104 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

i really wish I could gather some reliable info on this unit. It is a very interesting projector that may very well be the "dark horse" of the show and provide a great picture for a fraction of the cost of some of the "more popular" contenders. My main concerns are in regard to ANSI contrast and lumens output in highest contrast mode and of course white field uniformity. With its full CMS I am confident that it will be able to deliver very accurate colors or at least have the ability to be dialed in properly.

This is a very interesting unit indeed!

I agree Bob. I'd also like to add dust concerns and throw distance to your list (sorry if I missed this somewhere).
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post #105 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 06:18 AM
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What I cannot understand is why the colour uniformity adjustments like those of the Hitachi TX100/200/300 are not readily and obviously available. They were quite useful on the Hitachi.
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post #106 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 06:23 AM
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Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?
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post #107 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?

I'd say # 5 and #8 are up there on my list of concerns. #6 is also a concern to me. I want a projector that stays dust free for a long time for several reasons. A) I hate taking projectors apart to clean them as it is very stressful handling expensive projector internals. It's easy, I've done it many times, but handling the lcd block etc etc is not my idea of fun. B) I'm lazy, and when I see dust blobs, I get angry because it's usually right when I've turned the projector on to sit down and watch a dvd. Especially when I have people over. Either I explain away the dust blobs or delay watching until I've cleaned the dust blobs. Extremely annoying! C) Taking apart the projector is not an easy option when you risk voiding a very nice 2 or 3 year warranty!

Anyhow, at least it's nice to know that screen door, peak-a-boo scan lines and vertical banding are a thing of the past. The black levels and contrast of the D6 1080 lcd's was very very good, so if we get a nice big jump in contrast and blacks this time, instead of another small incremental improvement, it would be awesome. I just hope the colour uniformity and sharpness are both top notch, and that the pj stays free of dust longer.

Also, does anyone think is there is any indication that the lens of the TW2000 is improved over the TW1000? They describe a nice lens, and the TW1000 is fairly good, but there is no comparison with the TW1000 and the sharpness discussion appears to describe digital adjustments and not the glass lens. They do mention a sharp lens with low chromatic aberations, which is a potentially good thing, but is this a new lens or the same as on the TW1000?
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post #108 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 08:14 AM
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Did I read correctly that US price will be around $2,600? I was looking at the Optoma HD80 so far,but this one should be better,right?
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post #109 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

I'd say # 5 and #8 are up there on my list of concerns. #6 is also a concern to me. I want a projector that stays dust free for a long time for several reasons. A) I hate taking projectors apart to clean them as it is very stressful handling expensive projector internals. It's easy, I've done it many times, but handling the lcd block etc etc is not my idea of fun. B) I'm lazy, and when I see dust blobs, I get angry because it's usually right when I've turned the projector on to sit down and watch a dvd. Especially when I have people over. Either I explain away the dust blobs or delay watching until I've cleaned the dust blobs. Extremely annoying! C) Taking apart the projector is not an easy option when you risk voiding a very nice 2 or 3 year warranty!

I concur. While I can fix the dust problem, I don't want to have to take my PJ apart every month to clean it... nor do I want to void the warranty in doing so.

At this point, this PJ is leading the pack for my next PJ purchase. With that said, I'm starting to think I'll wait until Jan. or Feb to buy something so I can see all the new comers and see how reliable they are. Since I have several other PJs, I'm in no rush to be disappointed again like I was with my RS1.
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post #110 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 09:36 AM
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UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS
-excellent shadow detail
-pristine color fidelity
-detailed image
-better blacks, shadow detail and contrast than non-UB
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post #111 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?

1. Claimed to be 4500:1 ref Cine4Home (but not mesured by them)
2. Same iris as the TW1000 (said to be visible)
5. I have heard that the new inorgaic panels are better in this area.
6. Same housing and lens as the TW1000 what are the experiences on that one (think it is not a major issue from what I have read).
7. Info on this is availible in the japanese pages refered to earlyer.
9. The CMS on the TW1000 have a good track record this is an inprooved version.

I think this can be a winner even in Norway where we have to pay $5500 for it... (the RS1 is $10.300.)
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post #112 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heja View Post

1. Claimed to be 4500:1 ref Cine4Home (but not mesured by them)
2. Same iris as the TW1000 (said to be visible)
5. I have heard that the new inorgaic panels are better in this area.
6. Same housing and lens as the TW1000 what are the experiences on that one (think it is not a major issue from what I have read).
7. Info on this is availible in the japanese pages refered to earlyer.
9. The CMS on the TW1000 have a good track record this is an inprooved version.

I think this can be a winner even in Norway where we have to pay $5500 for it... (the RS1 is $10.300.)

1. iirc Cine4home quoted what the engineers said when cine4home asked about native contrast ratio.
6. I found the optics for the TW1000 were ok, but not razor sharp. Sometimes I feel it appears slightly less sharp than my previous Hitachi TX200 for SD-DVD, but it's a tiny amount. Could just be zoom or difference in appearance of 720p vs 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS
-excellent shadow detail
-pristine color fidelity
-detailed image
-better blacks, shadow detail and contrast than non-UB

No link?
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post #113 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS

The best DLPs and LCOS have native contrast much higher than 4500:1, so I'm not surprised. Still, 4500:1 is a huge step forward.

I still hope the Epson UB is at least better than the Optoma HD80, when it comes to black levels (without dynamic iris).
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post #114 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

The best DLPs and LCOS have native contrast much higher than 4500:1, so I'm not surprised. Still, 4500:1 is a huge step forward.

A lot of the DLPs in this price range fall 4000:1, if they can maintain close to the native 4500:1 of the panels, then Epson should be sitting pretty. With resonable brightness, the DLPs seem to be sitting around 3000:1, but they can achieve 4000:1 with super-low brightness. However, when you add in high-ANSI of DLPs, things get more interesting, and it isn't so easy to compare.
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post #115 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 12:36 PM
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However, when you add in high-ANSI of DLPs, things get more interesting, and it isn't so easy to compare.

I think that the older Home Cinema 1080, already did 250:1 ANSI contrast. Isn't it possible that with 4X the On/Off contrast, the UB version will also do 2X the ANSI contrast ? (which will put it at 500:1 ANSI contrast, just like most of the DLPs in this price range)
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post #116 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 01:05 PM
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I read earlier this projector does not do 1080/24 correctly. It takes the signal and converts it to 1080/60 just like the other one does and they are trying to support 1080/24 before release. I understand now why they were thinking of selling it for such a low price. This thing is no officially off my list of possible upgrades. Here is a link to the story!


http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2007/90807epson/
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post #117 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 01:07 PM
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The projector still accepts 1080p/24 and displays it at 1080p/60, but I was told that a multiple of 24p might be avaialble by the time the projector ships in December at a price under $5K

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2007/90807epson/
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post #118 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 01:53 PM
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The projector still accepts 1080p/24 and displays it at 1080p/60, but I was told that a multiple of 24p might be avaialble by the time the projector ships in December at a price under $5K

So the firmware update will cost $2K USD ?, lol.
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post #119 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

I think that the older Home Cinema 1080, already did 250:1 ANSI contrast. Isn't it possible that with 4X the On/Off contrast, the UB version will also do 2X the ANSI contrast ? (which will put it at 500:1 ANSI contrast, just like most of the DLPs in this price range)

No. The results of Epson's new polarization technique is similar to JVC's results when they applied the new technology to the RS1. This resulted in no change in ANSI contrast, but a significant boost in on/off. I would expect the same for the Espon.
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post #120 of 1093 Old 09-09-2007, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

So the firmware update will cost $2K USD ?, lol.

NO @#$%! lol...
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