WSR Greg Rogers Sony VPL-VW60 Review, official thread! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

gregr
you reported a significant increase in the MANSI CR measurement for the VW60 over the VW50. While the best DLP is still > 2.5 x the VW60, it has move closer to the median DLPs. Do you see a coorelation in intrascene CR in moving from the VW60 to say the ~500:1 MANSI DLPs? Do you see a difference between 500:1 DLPs to the Sharp 20K at > 800:1?

The 500:1 or so DLPs definitely have more image depth than the LCoS projectors in my opinion. And the Sharp projectors with MANSI from about 750:1 to 850:1 have more depth than the 500:1 DLPs. As you may know I thought the Yamaha DPX-1300 was the best 720p projector, but the Sharp 12K had more image depth.

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post #92 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:31 AM
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well super review as usual
surprised positevely by the brigthness increase, this is welcome ! those machines always tend to be very dim (sharp 10-12K, the marantz ouch ! even the VW100 at 350ansi calibrated)

so the VW60 RS1 and probably RS2 are to be considered bright HT projectors (well able to fire a 120" white screen in a BLACK ROOM).

i found the 12K Sharp depth to be INFERIOR to my HD1. probably due to the 720p resolution.

do you see lcos making more gain in MANSI contrast is there reflective technology limited currently without perhaps adding a fourth panel ?
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post #93 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

If you are still here, can you give us an idea which projector might be next up on the test block?

I'm not totally certain. It will probably be the Sony VPL-VW200, but I'm also very anxious to see the new Marantz (Dan?). Of course I hope to see the JVC RS-2 as soon as its available and there is a new Projection Designs projector coming. Somewhere along the way I'll do a 3-chip DLP from Digital Projection. And hopefully there will be a new "surprise" projector that comes along. That should keep my schedule busy for a while.

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post #94 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
The 500:1 or so DLPs definitely have more image depth than the LCoS projectors in my opinion. And the Sharp projectors with MANSI from about 750:1 to 850:1 have more depth than the 500:1 DLPs. As you may know I thought the Yamaha DPX-1300 was the best 720p projector, but the Sharp 12K had more image depth.

Thanks, Greg. That helps explain why I like the image from my Z20k Mk. II so much. The image depth and color accuracy are incredible, so my hopes are to get the same qualities from my next 1080p machine...It looks like the Z20k might be it, unless of course the new Marantz performs better than I expect.
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post #95 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I would love to find out how the VW60 compares to the Sharp 20K. The low light output of the 20K is keeping me from moving on it.

You should definitely compare those two. I would be a huge fan of the Sharp 20K (for its color accuracy, contrast, image depth, and controls) if they would speed up the color wheel, reduce the fan noise, and boost the lumens by 35%-50% in the highest contrast mode. Seems to me they need a new case/cooling design to accomplish the last two items.

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post #96 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Thanks, Greg. ...

You're up late Bob!

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post #97 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 01:54 AM
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but hasn"t Sharp decided to abandon the ht market ??
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post #98 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 02:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

do you see lcos making more gain in MANSI contrast is there reflective technology limited currently without perhaps adding a fourth panel ?

A year ago I don't think anyone (outside of JVC) would have predicted what JVC would be able to do with the LCoS full-field (on-off) contrast ratio. Remember we were getting about 2500:1 from LCoS vs 5000:1 or higher from DLP. And look what happened. So I wouldn't dare predict that LCoS MANSI contrast is technology limited now.

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post #99 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 03:23 AM
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hello Greg
thanks for the comment.
i think DLP has en edge with the mirroring principle
yeah, amazing the gain jvc has done from 2000:1 HD10K to 19000:1 (at colder temp) on the HD1 RS1. natively.
i hope JVC now releases a 2000ansi machine thank to the 40000:1 panels so we can have 2000ansi and perhaps 15000:1 native.
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post #100 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 05:42 AM
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Greg-

I asked earlier how close the VW60 came to delivering the Pop of DLP projs. I believe I know the answer to that question, and it is, "Not very close at all." I believe the so called Pop of DLP projs comes from their higher MANSI contrast ratios, and at this state of technology, LCDs and LCOSs can not deliver on that score.

Interestingly, in another thread, Jason opined that you can, in effect, get addicted to a display technology, especially DLP. He (like me) has only owned DLP projs., and although he has the pick of the best at AVS, he would only go with DLP for his own use.

Any comments on display addiction?

Thanks,
Bob
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post #101 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
You should definitely compare those two. I would be a huge fan of the Sharp 20K (for its color accuracy, contrast, image depth, and controls) if they would speed up the color wheel, reduce the fan noise, and boost the lumens by 35%-50% in the highest contrast mode. Seems to me they need a new case/cooling design to accomplish the last two items.

All I need are the lumens. Even as things stand now, it is between the Z20k and the 15S1 as my next projector...It all depends on how the Marantz comes up for lumens at high CR and just how much they have improved MANSI. Otherwise I will reduce my screen size and go with the Z20k. I hope the 15S1 is next on your list...
Quote:
You're up late Bob!

Actually I was up early to go to work. I burn the candle at both ends.
Quote:
I asked earlier how close the VW60 came to delivering the Pop of DLP projs. I believe I know the answer to that question, and it is, "Not very close at all." I believe the so called Pop of DLP projs comes from their higher MANSI contrast ratios, and at this state of technology, LCDs and LCOSs can not deliver on that score.

Well, "pop" is a pretty nebulous term, but if you are talking about high intrascene CR and image depth, it is a combination of several factors and MANSI CR is responsible for a good portion of it under many circumstances. Greg's comments about the differences in MANSI between DLPs suggest that I would be happiest with the machine that has the highest MANSI CR, assuming all else equal, and my guess is that you would be too, Bob.
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post #102 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 07:42 AM
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Greg,

Can you make any comment about any difference in on screen image motion blur between the VW60 and RS-1?

Thank you.
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post #103 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

At a 12.8 ft throw distance the VW60 was about 16.5% brighter than the RS-1. At max throw the VW60 was about 21% brighter. At 12.8 ft throw, max Lamp, the black levels were about 0.0015 fL for the RS-1 and 0.0018 for the VW-60 (without screen gain)

Thank you Greg for your comments.

Can you say us what was the black level you measured for the VW-50 in the same conditions (Auto 1)?

It would be interesting to know if the VW-60 greater contrast has more to do with a lower black level or a highest white level.
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post #104 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 08:29 AM
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Can you confirm the tearing issue reported with a 24p Input?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=886135

Nevertheless, worf in homecinema-fr seems to say that the problem is not present in the VW-60:
"1080p24 que ce soit en liaison avec ma PS3 ou mon PCHT absolument sans aucun tearing "

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/v...=asc&start=195

Thank you
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post #105 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 10:37 AM
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So what dlps on the market know compare to the rs1 or the black pearl? Does a 20000 to 1 sxrd or lcos even compare to a 5000 to 1 dlp? Does the higher mansi contrast put then on level contrast wise? Also how do the black levels compare? I work with the bad boy christie 3 chip cinema dlp projector which needs its own room for cooling and that is rated at 2000 to 1, but looks amazing. Just curious how the contrast compares between the two technologies. Thx
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post #106 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 11:43 AM
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Tod : you lucky boy ! you screen size must be at least 4meters wide i hope and scope. with this monster
the sony and especially the jvc will give much better black bars on a 16.9 screen
on a scope screen the advtange becomes a bit less imho. especially since an isco lens for instance eats a lot of ansi contrast and therefore a dlp will hold better.
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post #107 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

Greg-

I asked earlier how close the VW60 came to delivering the Pop of DLP projs. I believe I know the answer to that question, and it is, "Not very close at all." I believe the so called Pop of DLP projs comes from their higher MANSI contrast ratios, and at this state of technology, LCDs and LCOSs can not deliver on that score.

Interestingly, in another thread, Jason opined that you can, in effect, get addicted to a display technology, especially DLP. He (like me) has only owned DLP projs., and although he has the pick of the best at AVS, he would only go with DLP for his own use.

Any comments on display addiction?

Thanks,
Bob


well i get more pop from an HD1 than from a sharp, marantz. the benq 7700 gave a good pop. th emain reason is due to the brigthness.
i haven't tested unfortunately the Z20K
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post #108 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 11:52 AM
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I'm curious as to why the contrast ratios decreased with the lamp on low vs. on high. Seems a decrease in brightness would effect the levels of on and off similarly, keeping the contrast ratio identical.
Maybe I need to replace my lamp, even though blacks still aren't totally black, in order to improve the contrast ratio. (~1,800 hours on a Ruby)
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Paul
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post #109 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 03:09 PM
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I actually workwith the christie projector quite frequently and am amazed by the image. Its a 26 foot screen in the theater that it projects on. This is for digital intermediate mastering. Debating on sxrd, lcos or dlp for the house. I had an hd1 dlp in the past and just recently a pearl. Looking at the black pearl, rs1/hd1 or a dlp. Working with the christie its hard to see how these numbers compare between these technologies because that image looks so good even at 2000 to 1 rated contrast. Maybe it has a very high mansi contrast rating?
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post #110 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 03:32 PM
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toddbee
DonĀ“t forget the quality of the source you see, it is not exaclty dvds! Also the Christie might project a bright picture and then there is the ANSI thing.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #111 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 06:06 PM
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Is the extra ANSI (you guys were cracking me up with the MANSI thing) CR of the vw60 noticable over the vw50? was it like "yeah, it sure looks like the intrascene contrast has improved, i wonder what it measures" or was it more a case of getting the measurement and saying "interesting".

By Andrea's piccys its clear the VW60 has a sharper image over the pearl, its lost that smooth veneer it had.

Final question, does the 'DI' cutting peak white level give the impression that the intrascene contrast of the black pearl is much lower than the RS1? (by memory it looks like the VW60 gave a higher ANSI CR reading than the RS1)

Great review, many thanks for your efforts.


Looking forward to reading Andrea's report now

Dustin
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post #112 of 481 Old 09-29-2007, 06:09 PM
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yeah she can put down some serious brightness. I think its set for 14 ft l though.
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post #113 of 481 Old 09-30-2007, 03:22 PM
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Can someone tell me how to find this review on Widescreenreview.com? I'm probably being an idiot (I'm a subsriber and had no problems finding the RS1 review last time), but I don't see any link on the main page and even doing an equipment review search turns up nothing...

Then again, I've worked close to 400 hours in the past month so I'm a little fried. :-)
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post #114 of 481 Old 09-30-2007, 04:09 PM
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Upper left hand side on the subscriber page.


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post #115 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 09:53 AM
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Thanks. Yep, there is is, plain as day. I must have been fried. :-)
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post #116 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatarthe View Post

Hmmm.... Jason's review showed the RS-1 to be brighter than the black pearl, but you review shows the opposite! Can there be that much variation btw individual projector? This is an important issue for me, guess I'll have to wait for more revews....

Remember that yes, every projector varies. I'd bet if Greg took 5 more VW60's he get a decent range of results. I am so confident in that that I am going to test at least 1 or 2 more VW60's as soon as they arrive (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll post an addendum to what I find.
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post #117 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 03:00 PM
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It's difficult for me to understand why the variation in projectors can be more than 5%-10%. Is the manufacturing process that bad? Or are there other factors - the lamp for example.
I would purchase a VW60 in a second if I could get a projector that was within 5-10% of gregr's test results. I need the lumens based on screen size and long throw. Really frustrating!
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post #118 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 03:09 PM
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I'm in the same boat.
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post #119 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 03:32 PM
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"It's difficult for me to understand why the variation in projectors can be more than 5%-10%. Is the manufacturing process that bad? Or are there other factors - the lamp for example."

Yes, the lamp brightness tolerance alone is 15 or 20% IIRC.

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post #120 of 481 Old 10-01-2007, 04:16 PM
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To get a Sony one has to be a deeply religious person, or buy 4 units at a time and return the ones that have defects
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