WSR Greg Rogers Sony VPL-VW60 Review, official thread! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Believe me, I compared 1080p/48 on the ruby's DVI and 1080p/24 on the WV60's HDMI... They do not compare!

Sharpness-wise or also anything else ?
What about the Ruby's HDMI then ? (when used at 60Hz obviously)

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post #182 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 06:04 AM
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Native contrast obviously influences calibrated contrast. Very surprising that I have to mention that here...

How are you measuring native contrast? If I understand correctly, you are measuring out of the box, uncalibrated contrast, and that is far different than native contrast, as uncalibrated contrast can vary wildly from one machine to the next, though I feel sure that there are also variations in native contrast as well, though I wouldn't expect those variations to be as extreme as uncalibrated variations. Or am I misunderstanding you?
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post #183 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

...As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.

Sounds like detailed service menu tuning needs to be done to get optimal performance, as gregr suggested.

What was the final calibrated/tuned numbers on the 4 units?
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post #184 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 08:17 AM
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I have not went into the service menu yet. Is it the same code as the Rubys?

I was talking about sharpness when comparing the Ruby and the Black Pearl. I also feel like the Black Pearl is smoother... At 60hz 1080p HDMI they are nearly identical. As Alan mentioned the Ruby may still have an edge with richer color but after tweaking some you can get them to look nearly identical. Of course the Black Pearl still wins because it is much sharpner. Of course that is my taste so those who like a softer image might lean the other way. I am heading down there today to play more...

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post #185 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I only watched DirecTV HD tonite and I was completely happy with the performance of the VW60. After working a little with colors and black level I was able to take it to the next level. Football helmets looked so detailed with their painted color that I thought they looked wet. I had to double check to make sure it wasn't raining! There were a few good movies on that also looked impressive. I am now approaching 15 hours on the lamp so maybe it will settle down some. Even Skinamax HD looked terrific! Almost to good which is why I am just now posting... And again with the sharper image I am seeing a little more detail in close-ups. I was watching Wedding Crashers and some of the details even on the doors (when Owen would look through the door window) looked to good. Even more scary is a close-up of Lemmony Snickets. You can see Jim Carey's make-up perfectly. Have I mentioned how SHARP this pj is yet?

Thanks for the viewing details. Wondered whether this all was with your VP. Greg's review, as I posted earlier, mentioned some resolution pumping while viewing NBC late night (Conan), which like the football helmets involves deinterlacing original 1080/60i. And while gregr wrote above all such (non-24p) deinterlacing involves some resolution pumping, I still recall one or more reviews indicating such pumping wasn't noticeable. Recall mention of noticeable resolution pumping (other hardware) on the jacket tweed pattern of a late show guest that blurred with just a shrug of his shoulder; that is, going from razor-sharp static image to (presumably slightly) blurred from the TV field deinterlacing. -- John
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post #186 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 08:35 AM
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I actually went back and forth. Of course I love my crystalio II becuse I can tweak the picture so it is exactly the way I like it. But I will say going straight into the Black pearl the picture looked excellent. I did not see any pumping that was considered annoying to the point where it was unwatchable. I did see slight signs but those were few and very far between. By no means should that be considered a deal breaker. This pj has outperformed my Ruby and I suspect it will outperform many pjs in and above its price class... I really am impressed with its performance. Sony adding panel alignment to tweak convergence should make this pj a done deal for many...

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post #187 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

... And while gregr wrote above all such (non-24p) deinterlacing involves some resolution pumping, I still recall one or more reviews indicating such pumping wasn't noticeable...

Noticeable is a vague term! Do you recall on which processor or projector? How did the processer/pj do on line twitter, jaggies, or flicker?
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post #188 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 11:39 AM
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Ekkehart, do you find the Sanyo's performance on par with the VW60? If so, what a bargain priced projector.
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post #189 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Noticeable is a vague term! Do you recall on which processor or projector? How did the processer/pj do on line twitter, jaggies, or flicker?

Afraid not. Been avoiding a long search. :-) Just that the no (or maybe virtually none) vs observed resolution pumping (this gregr review) stuck. Could have been another high-end projector...or a video processor review. Likely seen within the past year. Can't recall comments in the reviews about the other factors. -- John
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post #190 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Afraid not. Been avoiding a long search. :-) Just that the no (or maybe virtually none) vs observed resolution pumping (this gregr review) stuck. Could have been another high-end projector...or a video processor review. Likely seen within the past year. Can't recall comments in the reviews about the other factors. -- John

You are giving an impression that the VW60 has problematic resolution pumping, while other unnamed products do not. I believe gregr has already explained his post, so I will leave it alone.
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post #191 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

Native contrast obviously influences calibrated contrast. Very surprising that I have to mention that here...

Regards,
Ekkehart

What is the native contrast of an uncalibrated projector compared to the native contrast of the same projector calibrated? Answer: It depends entirely on how "uncalibrated" it is. i.e. there is no meaningful native contrast figure for an uncalibrated projector because you haven't stated how uncalibrated it is. I'm surprised I have to mention that here .....

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post #192 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

These deviations show that reviews of single test units (normally picked samples), dont give accurate results - at least when it comes to this Sony...

Regards,
Ekkehart

You have no facts to say that Sony hand picked a sample for my review. That is an irresponsible thing to say. My sample was a production unit and you owe Sony an apology.

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post #193 of 481 Old 10-07-2007, 08:58 PM
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After tweaking (and calibrating) my WV60 the last day or so it is plenty bright.

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post #194 of 481 Old 10-08-2007, 05:19 AM
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What is the native contrast of an uncalibrated projector compared to the native contrast of the same projector calibrated? Answer: It depends entirely on how "uncalibrated" it is. i.e. there is no meaningful native contrast figure for an uncalibrated projector because you haven't stated how uncalibrated it is

That was what I was trying to say with my tongue twisted, poorly worded, grammatically incorrect post earlier. That's what I get for posting in a rush as I leave for work.
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post #195 of 481 Old 10-08-2007, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

You are giving an impression that the VW60 has problematic resolution pumping, while other unnamed products do not. I believe gregr has already explained his post, so I will leave it alone.

As mentioned, just reporting what I'd read (from memory) comparing resolution pumping from earlier reviews versus the VW60 review. But just to see if I was recalling in error, went back through some '07 WSR gregr reviews using original-1080i video broadcasts:

Jan.'s XV-Z20000U review commented: "Resolution pumping was also more apparent with Sharp's deinterlacing." (That's video deinterlacing with Sharp's own video processor, or CV-IC).

March's Optoma HD81 review: "Resolution pumping was very minor." (Gennum VXP processor.)

May's JVC RS1 review: "Images were sharp with excellent detail and extremely fine textures, and only minor resolution pumping with movement." (Gennum VXP processor.)

Nov.'s Sony VW60 review, paraphrased per gregr's no-quote request: He reported excellent static sharpness and definition, and noticed modest resolution pumping that caused fine details to blur on a talk-show host's shirt when he moved while giving his monologue. (Didn't spot mention of video processor; maybe proprietary, as with Sharp's.)

That's the motion-blurring references I noticed. Since I read the other reviews throughout '07, I might have mistakenly 'blended' some review comments about "no" line twitter mentioned with certain models and, erroneously, "no" resolution pumping (never published). But there seems to be a distinction made with the Sharp and Sony models and the others, as the quotes above suggest. -- John
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post #196 of 481 Old 10-08-2007, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

As mentioned, just reporting what I'd read (from memory) comparing resolution pumping from earlier reviews versus the VW60 review. But just to see if I was recalling in error, went back through some '07 WSR gregr reviews using original-1080i video broadcasts:

Jan.'s XV-Z20000U review commented: "Resolution pumping was also more apparent with Sharp's deinterlacing." (That's video deinterlacing with Sharp's own video processor, or CV-IC).

March's Optoma HD81 review: "Resolution pumping was very minor." (Gennum VXP processor.)

May's JVC RS1 review: "Images were sharp with excellent detail and extremely fine textures, and only minor resolution pumping with movement." (Gennum VXP processor.)

Nov.'s Sony VW60 review, paraphrased per gregr's no-quote request: He reported excellent static sharpness and definition, and noticed modest resolution pumping that caused fine details to blur on a talk-show host's shirt when he moved while giving his monologue. (Didn't spot mention of video processor; maybe proprietary, as with Sharp's.)

That's the motion-blurring references I noticed. Since I read the other reviews throughout '07, I might have mistakenly 'blended' some review comments about "no" line twitter mentioned with certain models and, erroneously, "no" resolution pumping (never published). But there seems to be a distinction made with the Sharp and Sony models and the others, as the quotes above suggest. -- John

John,
That is exactly what I intend for people to do with my reviews - use them as a relative comparison of products. That is why I try to maintain a relatively consistent format in the projector reviews. As far as resolution pumping is concerned, I'd rank them for that characteristic as Gennum, Sony, Sharp in that order.

Greg Rogers
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post #197 of 481 Old 10-08-2007, 02:35 PM
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And we appreciate (or at least I do) your thorough well written reviews. I am happy with the VW60. It does feel like a nice upgrade from my Ruby. Of course I use a crystalio II with it so that helps.Also having 1080p/24 does to! Keep up the nice Roger reports!

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post #198 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 10:21 AM
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Is AVS an authorized dealer for the Sony VPL VW60? I hope to buy soon but need to know what is the best way to go.
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post #199 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 10:45 AM
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Of course they are.

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post #200 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 11:35 AM
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I checked Sony's list of authorized dealers and they were not listed. I then called the customer service number on the Sony style website and they checked and said they were not an authorized dealer. So now I really confused and I don't know which way to go.
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post #201 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 11:53 AM
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They sell a lot of stuff so I do not see how they could do it and not be able to back it up...

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post #202 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 12:35 PM
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yea, that sounds right. I'm just a little worried making such a big purchase. I went on thier web site and under projectors they do not list Sony. But I did talk to them awhile back and they said that they sold them. I'm just dazed and confused now.
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post #203 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 06:38 PM
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From the A/V Science Store site:
Quote:
A/V Science, Inc. is also authorized to sell everything we offer. No gray market or bait and switch goods here. If we aren't authorized, we don't sell it. So feel at ease when you buy something from us that you are getting full manufacturers warranty with it.

I guess that means they are an authorized dealer for the Sony VW60. Right?
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post #204 of 481 Old 10-12-2007, 08:13 PM
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I got my unit from them and I am not worried.

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post #205 of 481 Old 10-13-2007, 06:02 PM
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We just finished watching Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer and I can't explain how awesome the picture looked. I am using my new Pioneer 95FD to send in 1080p/24 and it is awesome! Even my wife leaned over and made a comment on how much more sharper the picture looked. The Black Pearl when fed 1080p/24 has a judder free, detailed picture that is very sharp. This pj has raised the bar! I would not have to release a pj that costs twice as much as this one... The competition has their work cut out for them. Trouble is it is a lot of hard work!

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post #206 of 481 Old 10-13-2007, 06:30 PM
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I just told my wife that this upgrade (VW50/VW100 to VW60) has been known to cause the big "O" for a lot of wives. She's still not buying it and thinks I'm an obsessed idiot. Oh well, I tried.
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post #207 of 481 Old 10-13-2007, 06:33 PM
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lol

Current Projects:
IN PROGRESS (80%) - Building 3D Theater room.
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post #208 of 481 Old 10-13-2007, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
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She's still not buying it and thinks I'm an obsessed idiot. Oh well, I tried.

This post is one of my favs - maybe this will help: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759494
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post #209 of 481 Old 10-14-2007, 01:34 PM
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That is a funny thread. Or should I call it a users guide?
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post #210 of 481 Old 10-14-2007, 03:06 PM
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As long as you get a few good chick flicks in HD then you should be fine...

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