Sony VPL-VW60 Tweakers Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1581 Old 11-29-2007, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmx View Post

My new VPL VW60 will soon be delivered. I do have a couple of questions however. First, how should you set the overscan setting? Should overscan be set at all? Also, with the Toshiba HD-XA2, does anyone have the blue line problem with overscan turned off?

Thanks

Mark

I've found I need it on when viewing stuff on the component video inputs from my panasonic DVD recorder. Basically, if you are seeing funny stuff outside the picture area, or if the picture proper doesn't fill the projector's imaging area try turning it on. If the picture is cropped, then turn it off.

JJ

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post #272 of 1581 Old 11-29-2007, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjmixman View Post

This is quite informative:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317

It confirms:

a) SD material is REC609 (normal)
b) HD material is REC701 (wide)
c) The RGB range thing is definitely for computers. RGB or Component signals for video should use the 16-235 range. So I guess I should turn that setting back off on my HDDVD player...

Agreed.

Quote:


It also states that there is a problem playing upscaled SD material because the display cannot know that the source is SD (at least not if you are connected by a component video cable) In other words, if your projector is set to 1080p, it will tend to assume the wide space... unless it is a VW60 and gives you a button with which to choose

I suspect that a couple of different Rec. 601 vs. Rec. 709 distinctions might be getting conflated here.

One is about the primary chromaticities, or the meaning of R, G, and B. Rec. 709/HD specifies a wider color gamut than has been used for Rec. 601/SD. This roughly corresponds to the Pearl's Wide vs. Normal "Color Space" control, at least in its function. According to gregr's review, the VW60's Normal setting works well for Rec. 601, although the Wide setting is a bit oversaturated for Rec. 709. But many people (not all, and I'm not trying to make a value assertion here ) consider this a relatively subtle issue and don't bother adjusting primary chromaticities based on whether the source is SD/601 or HD/709.

The other distinction is about the coefficients used in the matrix transform to encode/decode RGB to/from YCbCr. Rec. 709 defined significantly different coefficients than were used for Rec. 601 (and many other previous standards). This is the higher-order distinction of concern when doing things like upscaling an SD source before feeding it to an HD display. If the source video is SD YCbCr, encoded with the 601 coefficients, then in addition to the geometric scaling it should be transformed to 709-encoded YCbCr for 1080i/p output because that is what the display will be expecting to decode for such an HD-resolution input. It is conceivable for a display to support manual configuration of whether a YCbCr input at any resolution is encoded with 601 or 709 coefficients, but that's not a common feature. I have a VW50 and it doesn't have such a control, and I'm pretty sure that gregr's review of the VW60 explicitly states that it doesn't have one either (along with a wish that more displays would support manual control of this behavior). So, if you're feeding the VW60 an HD-resolution YCbCr signal (1080i/p or even 720p), Rec. 709 encoding is assumed.

Quote:


This leaves an interesting question which I'm hoping someone here will know the answer to. If an upscaling DVD player or HDDVD player plays an SD disc, does it, or does it not translate from the SD to the HD color space? My current observations would suggest not, in which case viewing SD material with Wide Colour enabled on the VW60 is a definite no-no.

It depends on the player, but I think that newer upscaling players are likely to do the right thing with respect to transforming the encoding for YCbCr output. I can say that my Oppo DV-970HD and my Toshiba HD-XA2 do the right thing for their YCbCr outputs with all combinations of output resolution and SD or (in the case of the XA2) HD source video.

Disclaimer: I am not a video professional, this is all just based on my personal understanding and experience.

-- Peter
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post #273 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjmixman View Post

This is quite informative:

P.P.S Obstler - are you watching HD or SD films??? If SD DVD then your violet/purple lips sound exactly like the sort of thing I've seen with SD material - just switch back to Normal color space and I expect all will be well.

Watching HD material but from HTPC connected via dvi-hdmi. also changing the wide/normal color space setting doesn't get rid of the purple lips at all. though I never noticed it on my old projector I also can't rule out a source problem if no one else seems to have that purplish look. will have the check the material on different displays.

One other thing I notice: when I look at the same material from the htpc on my dell pc lcd monitor I see much more detail in black areas than with the vw60, haven't figured out what that is either.
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post #274 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjmixman View Post

Meanwhile I'm trying to decide whether I prefer the punchier/brighter look of High Lamp Auto Iris 1, 50% brightness, Gamma off and 80%-85% contrast or OmarF's Low Lamp/Gamma 3 settings/high contrast settings. If I read correctly he has a high gain screen (6.0), which I do not - I'd figure that could make a very big difference to one's choice in this area as could room decor.

JJ

My current settings:

Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Auto 1, Recommend Mode
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 49
Color: 49
Hue: 50
Color Temp: Middle
Sharpness: Min (off, I suppose)
Black Level Adjust: Off
Gamma Correction: Gamma 3 (with A/VSpec Mark's service menu gamma tweak)
RCP: -6 on Red Color intensity

I found that lowering the Brightness to the factory default of 80 eliminates white crush in Auto 1 while giving me great black levels (it may also have to do with why I don't notice the iris focusing too often now--maybe only once or twice in a movie), and that lowering the Color to 49 and the RCP of -6 on Red gives pleasing color saturation without over-pushing red. According to the test patterns on DVE I could have the Brightness as high as 51, but there is a noticeable difference in the richness of black when going with 49. Turning Sharpness on seems to my eyes to cause a slight motion blur in the image, though that may just be my imagination, but I've found I don't need it anyway and so have turned it off for HD material. With upconverted SD material I think it may still be helpful to have a bit of Sharpness added, +3 to +7 depending on taste. And yeah, my screen's pretty high gain, 6.0. I also have curtains up all over my room to prevent light reflection, and I've even covered my ceiling with large panels of black cloth to kill reflections off of it onto my screen. I have a pretty light-tight room
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post #275 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 05:00 AM
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I found that lowering the Brightness (you mean contrast, I think) to the factory default of 80 eliminates white crush in Auto 1 while giving me great black levels (it may also have to do with why I don't notice the iris focusing too often now--maybe only once or twice in a movie), and that lowering the Color to 49 and the RCP of -6 on Red gives pleasing color saturation without over-pushing red.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I did some tests with DVE last night and proved that with the really high contrast settings (> 95%) suggested earlier on in this thread, you may be able to distinguish top level whites, but the green clips before the other colours - so some detail would definitely be lost.

Your settings are now very close to mine now, except I'm running with the high lamp setting - quite logical given the difference in our screen gains. Also, I think having the extra brightness gives the impression of really good/deep blacks!

Quote:


I also have curtains up all over my room to prevent light reflection, and I've even covered my ceiling with large panels of black cloth to kill reflections off of it onto my screen.

You defintitely do right to black out your ceiling - I have the same problem but haven't found a domestically suitable/acceptable scheme for dealing with it yet; am toying with the idea of a installing a horizontal roller blind. The truth is that this kind of thing probably does more to improve the image than subtle tweaking of gamma curves etc.

A/V Mark - could you elaborate on what the gamma tweak actually does - visually it seems to reduce the reds a little at low-medium intensity.

JJ.

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post #276 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 05:03 AM
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Thanks for the update. I'll try those settings this weekend. My VW60 is coming in today and I'll continue to use my 119" HP. Those settings are similar to what I used with my VW50. I miss the constant tweaking. My AE2000u was a bit boring. Nothing needed to be adjusted in Color 1.


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post #277 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 05:13 AM
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Peter - thanks for your really informative/comprehensive reply regarding REC601/709. This is useful stuff to know.

Quote:


According to gregr's review, the VW60's Normal setting works well for Rec. 601, although the Wide setting is a bit oversaturated for Rec. 709.

I'm thinking this would confirm that Wide color would be substantially oversaturated for SD material, assuming (as seems to be the case) that the upscaling device translates the RGB/YPbPr encoding coefficients but not the primary color chromaticities.

From a purely perceptive standpoint, I've found that HD material in Normal doesn't look too bad but SD material in Wide looks decidedly odd. HD material in Wide, with color=49, RCP red-6, middle color temp looks just about spot on.

Sadly, it seems that none of this helps obstler with his purple lips. I guess that must be something else.

JJ.

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post #278 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 05:27 AM
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Quote:


Watching HD material but from HTPC connected via dvi-hdmi. also changing the wide/normal color space setting doesn't get rid of the purple lips at all. though I never noticed it on my old projector I also can't rule out a source problem if no one else seems to have that purplish look. will have the check the material on different displays.

Here's a thought re. obstler's problem. Maybe your HTPC is transmitting the data down the wire as RGB instead of YCbCr. That could open up a whole can of worms! As we have discussed earlier, HDMI can send data in either format - one is aimed at computer monitors and the other at video devices. But the data is on the discs as YCbCr so it's probably best if it doesn't get translated to RGB until it is inside the projector.

Suggest you check your settings at the PC end. Hopefully it will give you a choice to transmit the data as component video (I think it will be labelled as YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2) Failing that, maybe try an analog component video connection to the projector, at least to see if it makes a difference.

JJ.

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post #279 of 1581 Old 11-30-2007, 01:41 PM
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[quote=OmarF;12357763]My current settings:

Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Auto 1, Recommend Mode
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 49


I found that lowering the Brightness to the factory default of 80 eliminates white crush in Auto 1 while giving me great black levels

OMAR- YOU STATED THAT YOU LOWERED THE BRIGHTNESS TO 80...I believe that you meant CONTRAST
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post #280 of 1581 Old 12-01-2007, 11:20 AM
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[quote=WOLVERNOLE;12363283]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

My current settings:

Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Auto 1, Recommend Mode
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 49


I found that lowering the Brightness to the factory default of 80 eliminates white crush in Auto 1 while giving me great black levels

OMAR- YOU STATED THAT YOU LOWERED THE BRIGHTNESS TO 80...I believe that you meant CONTRAST

You are most correct I wrote that in a rush before heading out to work. Though I've found I can get away now with a Contrast of 85 and no white crush

Omar
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post #281 of 1581 Old 12-01-2007, 12:30 PM
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Anyone here actually have to use the convergence adjustment on their VW60?


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post #282 of 1581 Old 12-01-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

My current settings:

Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Auto 1, Recommend Mode
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 49
Color: 49
Hue: 50
Color Temp: Middle
Sharpness: Min (off, I suppose)
Black Level Adjust: Off
Gamma Correction: Gamma 3 (with A/VSpec Mark's service menu gamma tweak)
RCP: -6 on Red Color intensity...

It appears that after 1 month of tweaking you are almost back to the default settings. Glad to see you lowering the contrast, using the Auto Iris.
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post #283 of 1581 Old 12-01-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Anyone here actually have to use the convergence adjustment on their VW60?

I used it. Been so long that I really do not remember what I had to adjust and by how much... I think the red was off and I had to tweak it to the right a few clicks.

-Mark AKA A/Vspec
ISF certified Audio/Video Specialist

Home of the ISF and Audyssey Pro calibrated Medieval Knight Theater:

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post #284 of 1581 Old 12-02-2007, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Anyone here actually have to use the convergence adjustment on their VW60?

Have to? Probably not. But it did tighten the picture up a bit with no perceivable negative effects.
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post #285 of 1581 Old 12-17-2007, 01:05 AM
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Hi,

I did a side-by-side comparison between the VW60 and HD1 (RS1) and noticed that the RS1 has better black level with a completely black picture. I think that shouldn´t normal. I´ve read here that some VW60s have a too bright setup which can be corrected in the service menu. Can anyone tell me how to do this?


Here are my settings:
A/D Converter
01 ADC/R Gain 277
02 ADC/G Gain 277
03 ADC/B Gain 277
04 ADC/R Offset 0
05 ADC/G Offset 0
06 ADC/B Offset 0
07 SS/SonG Bias Current 1
08 SS/SonG Hysterisis 1
09 SS/SonG Thresh 1
10 SS/Video Pos Thresh 1
11 SS/Video Bias Current 1
12 SS/Video Hysterisis 1
13 SS/Video Thresh 1
14 SS/VS Pol Gain 0
15 SS/HS Pol Gain 0
16 SS/Back VS Pol Gain 0
17 SS/Back HS Pol Gain 0
18 SS/VS Sep Sel 0
19 SS/HACCU 0
20 SS/HINA Thresh 1
21 SS/HINA Hysterisis 1

Panel Driver
01 P.Drv/Gain R 85
02 P.Drv/Gain G 85
03 P.Drv/Gain B 50

Display Engine
01 DE/LUT SW 0
02 DE/UF SW 1
10 DE/REG ZONE EN 0

Other
01 Iris/Adjust 0
02 Iris/Open Reg 713
03 Iris/Close Reg 383
04 Iris/Open Hall 583
05 Iris/Close Hall 582
06 Other/Synchronous 1
07 Other/Pattern Enb 1


WB

high
preamp
R: 128
G: 72
B: 111
bias
R: 119
G: 128
B: 129

middle
preamp
R: 128
G: 72
B: 99
bias
R: 122
G: 128
B: 131

low
preamp
R: 128
G: 64
B: 72
bias
R: 119
G: 128
B: 130

user 1
preamp
R: 158
G: 102
B: 141
bias
R: 128
G: 128
B: 128

user 2
preamp
R: 128
G: 72
B: 99
bias
R: 122
G: 128
B: 131

user 3
preamp
R: 128
G: 64
B: 72
bias
R: 119
G: 128
B: 130

Gamma
Level 0
Position 1
R: 25
G: 0
B: -31

Level 1
Position 1
R: 21
G: 0
B: -15

Level 2
Position 1
R: 13
G: 0
B: -20

Level 3
Position 1
R: 9
G: 0
B: -16

Level 4
Position 1
R: 9
G: 0
B: -17

Level 5
Position 1
R: 9
G: 0
B: -5

Level 6
Position 1
R: 5
G: 0
B: -16

Level 7
Position 1
R: 1
G: 0
B: -10

Level 8
Position 1
R: 3
G: 0
B: -11

Level 9
Position 1
R: 1
G: 0
B: -13

Level 10
Position 1
R: 0
G: 0
B: 0

Level 11
Position 1
R: -1
G: -1
B: -1



outside the service menu:
Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Auto 1, Recommend Mode
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 49
Color: 50
Hue: 50
Color Temp: Middle
Sharpness: Min (off, I suppose)
Black Level Adjust: Off
Gamma Correction: Gamma 3
RCP: -6 on Red Color intensity


and


Lamp: Low
Auto Iris: Manual @37%
Color Space: Wide
Contrast: 99
Brightness: 50
Color: 49
Hue: 50
Color Temp: Middle
Sharpness: 0
Black Level Adjust: Off
Gamma Correction: Gamma 3


Thanks in advance
Frank
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post #286 of 1581 Old 12-17-2007, 02:51 PM
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I had similar problems when I first got my VW-60. I was projecting on a DIY Do-Able board. Other than that, picture looked nice. I've upgraded to a firehawk, and now colors are dead-on. Have you considered it might be the screen making the lips look funny? The screen has made a world of difference for me. Hope that is of some use - the picture of this projector on our 106" firehawk is unbelievable, and using many of the tweaks on this thread. I do prefer the lamp on the high brightness setting on the firehawk, though.
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post #287 of 1581 Old 12-17-2007, 08:29 PM
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Very soon, I hope to be posting a guide to calibrating this projector by eye with DVE.

Omar
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post #288 of 1581 Old 12-18-2007, 02:32 AM
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I am still debating on what projector to get and this is one of my choices.

What screens work the best with the Sony and what appears to be the best throw distance for the best PQ?

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS - SUPER BOWL XLIV CHAMPIONS
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post #289 of 1581 Old 12-18-2007, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

I am still debating on what projector to get and this is one of my choices.

What screens work the best with the Sony and what appears to be the best throw distance for the best PQ?

I have a 103" VuTec Silverstar (6.0 gain), and it works beautifully with my VW60. My projector is about 12' back on an 8' ceiling.
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post #290 of 1581 Old 12-24-2007, 06:52 AM
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I just finished calibrating a second Vpl-vw60 with a Lumagen Radiance processor. The default contrast was set at 90? I recall the first unit being set lower....80? At any rate at 100 ire the red readings were about 15% low.This has a pretty negative effect on the image. Turning up the red control in the white balance menu did not change anything,indicating it was out of gas, red wise .
I then dropped the contrast to 80 and the red popped right back to almost ideal levels. Overall the grayscale now looks better than any Sony projector I have set up in recent history.
The Lumagen adds the parametric gray scale adjustments to fine tune up to 11 points as well. As mentioned earlier this combination is very very good!
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post #291 of 1581 Old 12-24-2007, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

I am still debating on what projector to get and this is one of my choices.

What screens work the best with the Sony and what appears to be the best throw distance for the best PQ?

Mine is 13 feet from a 110" Stewart Firehawk 1.35 gain in a totally light controlled room. I run the VW60 with the low bulb setting and it is stunning!


Traveler
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post #292 of 1581 Old 12-25-2007, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traveler View Post

Mine is 13 feet from a 110" Stewart Firehawk 1.35 gain in a totally light controlled room. I run the VW60 with the low bulb setting and it is stunning!


Wow, me too! Almost exactly the same thing - 110" Firehawk G3, about 13' away, totally light controlled room.

I'll add that even with lights, including overhead cans and leaving the door open to the HT, the screen looks amazing. The G3 can handle a fair amount of ambient light with only minimal washing out.

However you want to watch it in a light controlled environment, and just be stunned.

TiVo is on it's way out -
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post #293 of 1581 Old 12-26-2007, 06:16 AM
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How does the panel alignment feature work? I went into the feature, selected red and then saw a grid appear with the ability to move vertical and horizontal, but was afraid to change anything....how do you align the panels exactly?
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post #294 of 1581 Old 12-26-2007, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenyalie View Post

How does the panel alignment feature work? I went into the feature, selected red and then saw a grid appear with the ability to move vertical and horizontal, but was afraid to change anything....how do you align the panels exactly?

After the grid shows up, just hit the direction keys.

You can also choose to have all three colors in the grid, or pick any two to make it easier to align.

TiVo is on it's way out -
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post #295 of 1581 Old 12-26-2007, 06:43 AM
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thanks for the reply, what exactly am I aligning...the grid? Sorry for the newbie question

Thanks
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post #296 of 1581 Old 12-27-2007, 06:48 AM
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Hi Guys from sunny (not!) England.

I have just swapped my VW50 for a new Black Pearl and tried to read this thread from start to finish - I got to page 5 before blood started to come from my eyes and ears!

I am new to tweaking and have no desire to enter the service menu so can someone (pretty please!) point me in the right direction of how to get the best out of this projector with some basic settings.

I am using a da-lite cinema contour grey screen (a few years old now but I think it was a competitor to the stewart greyhawk and I bought it originally to partner my first projector, a VW10 then a VW11, then a VW50).

The finish of the material is da-mat high contrast grey with a gain of 0.8 so does this mean that I should use the lamp in the high setting?

Thanks Guys for any help - really appreciate it!

Best Wishes

Gary
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post #297 of 1581 Old 12-28-2007, 03:28 PM
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any help on panel alignment...this isn't as intuitive as I like. Also, I seem to be loving Standard...with Gamma 1 and USER 1 and RCP set to -6...seems awesome in HD
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post #298 of 1581 Old 12-28-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

Very soon, I hope to be posting a guide to calibrating this projector by eye with DVE.

Omar

Omar,

Where did ya go???

Scott
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post #299 of 1581 Old 12-29-2007, 01:51 AM
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Hi Guys,

I tried Omars settings including the gamma tweak via the service menu (I felt courageous!) but on Gamma 3 I lost too much black detail and Gamma 2 gave much better results and shadow detail. I have therefore reverted to the non Gamma tweak and turned the Gamma setting to off. I also get better results with the lamp on high but that is probably due to my low screen gain (0.8) compared to Omar's +6?

Will keep playing!

Best Wishes

Gary
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post #300 of 1581 Old 12-29-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenyalie View Post

any help on panel alignment...this isn't as intuitive as I like. Also, I seem to be loving Standard...with Gamma 1 and USER 1 and RCP set to -6...seems awesome in HD

What exactly are you having trouble with with the panel alignment?

You should be shooting for solid white lines on test pattern with no green, red or blue fringes on the lines. It is a global adjustment so you should try and get the center of the image dead on. There might still be some miss-alignment on other areas of the display.

Quote:


Hi Guys,

I tried Omars settings including the gamma tweak via the service menu (I felt courageous!) but on Gamma 3 I lost too much black detail and Gamma 2 gave much better results and shadow detail. I have therefore reverted to the non Gamma tweak and turned the Gamma setting to off. I also get better results with the lamp on high but that is probably due to my low screen gain (0.8) compared to Omar's +6?

Every projector is most likely different and will need to be calibrated differently. You can use some of these settings posted here to possibly get you close but then you need to adjust it for your screen size and gain, for possible defects/anomalies in the projector and other variables.

ISF calibration is always a plus but some have a good eye and can get it close.

I have a 2.35 setup and leave my Panamorph lens in place for all viewing and I am viewing on a 130” curved StudioTek screen so my settings are not going to be the same as most.

-Mark AKA A/Vspec
ISF certified Audio/Video Specialist

Home of the ISF and Audyssey Pro calibrated Medieval Knight Theater:

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