Sony VPL-VW60 Tweakers Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1581 Old 11-19-2008, 05:23 PM
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I knew it! In fact, it's worse than I thought...talk about "elevated black levels"!

Here is the room:


Here is my hand in the light path of "no input" black:


Here is the screen taken with my Canon G3 manual, ISO 100, f5, 15 sec. exposure:


The shadow of the camera tells the story...the "HDMI input" icon falls on the painted wall behind, so you can see how bright "black" still is on a darker surface.

Looked in the service menu, my value was 442 (Tried lowering to 350, but didn't see any immediate change.) PJ settings: Cinema mode, Low lamp, Black level-off, Gamma adj.-off, Contrast 80, Brightness 45.

This is from 18~19 ft zoomed to the smallest size. Vertical adjust all the way to the lower extreme.

What on earth could be happening?
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post #632 of 1581 Old 11-19-2008, 06:34 PM
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Here is the test to see if your CLOSE REG can be set lower.

With a 0% or 7.5% full field gray pattern, switch between auto iris and manual iris set to MIN. If you can see a change in projected brightness when you switch from auto to manual, try lowering your CLOSE REG .

Try lowering the CLOSE REG to <200> or even <150>. At some point even the menu screen for the iris setting will stop changing brightness as you switch from auto iris to manual. If you are using a 0% gray pattern, that's the at which the iris is fully closed.

My 1st HW10 had a factory value <347> and adjusted down to <131>. The HW10 I just bought from AVS had a factory value <382> and adjusted down to <144>. So even in the HW10, there is variations regarding when the iris becomes fully closed with a GetGray 0% gray pattern.

Give it another try.

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post #633 of 1581 Old 11-19-2008, 08:44 PM
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I guess I will have to procure a disc that has a low IRE pattern. I have noticed that there are moments that do trigger a lowering of the black level (like when it is attempting to lock onto an HDMI signal), I guess that is another clue that my value should be lowered. My thinking is: If there is no signal going to the projector and I have asked it to show a black background, why wouldn't it close the iris completely?

Thanks for the detailed means of troubleshooting this issue. I shall try and report back.

At least I'm not able to see the "bright corners" some people are bothered by...
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post #634 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 12:21 AM
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Dr.

The CLOSE REG setting relates to the luminance value of the signal. No signal might be the same a BTB, or 0%, I don't know.

You might try a total black out scene in a movie, but that might be 7.5% or 10% gray depending on how well mastered the film was.

I just found out something about the HW10 auto iris tonight. Auto 1 makes deeper blacks than Auto 2, so I was able to raise my CLOSE REG from <142> to <255>.

When I get to taking readings with a probe this weekend, I'll be able to play with the auto iris adjustments some more and I'll post a follow up.

BTW... the beginning of the credits at the end of Hellboy II are a real good test for the Auto Iris.

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post #635 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 06:57 AM
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My take on the Auto iris agrees with your findings: Auto 1 makes the preference for black and Auto 2 retains white level.

Made some headway last night, but not with the setting. I did adjust it down to 142 (from 442-default) but could not see any change between Auto 1 and Manual (although Manual did lower black more when set to MIN). Still nowhere near black although I hadn't put a 0~7.5% IRE pattern to it, I figured the HD DVD splash screen would have triggered a more closed iris.

The biggest change was had by changing the default W/B settings for Custom 3 in the Service Menu. Specifically the BIAS for G and B, which were at 128(for G) and 136(for B). Lowering these both to 73 drastically reduced the black level, but still pretty bright.

My question would be how closed are most owner's irises when projecting black? I ask because it appeared the value only affected the Manual iris setting. Is the value universal or is it independently adjustable for each Iris setting (Auto 1, Auto 2 & Manual). I may have done it incorrectly.

Thanks again for the direction, although I'm still tempted to return this unit.
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post #636 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 08:25 AM
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Dr.

What is your source? Are you sending the projector a 16-235 or 0-255 luminance range?

Are your GAMMA or Black Level controls set to OFF?

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post #637 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 08:34 AM
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Source is a Toshiba HD-A1 and Samsung BD-P2550 both over HDMI though an Onkyo 805. Now that I think about it, I haven't gone direct from each source to the PJ...

My assumption would be that I am sending 16-235. I used a test disc from dr1394's website.

Black level=off, GAMMA=Gamma 3 (darkest).

Are you familiar with the other perameters under "OTHER" that handle the iris, like & , etc.?
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post #638 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 08:53 AM
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DR.

GAMMA should be set to OFF for the calibration.

The "HALL" values reflect the actual brightness values through the projector. As you adjust the OPEN or CLOSED REG settings, you can check the HALL readings to see if the values continue to increase/decrease according to your adjustments. You should note, the HALL readings will fluctuate +/- if without any adjustments, it's not a problem but something to keep in mind if you use the HALL readings and the service manual to make calibration settings.

Make sure your source, or anything in the signal chain, are using the NORMAL HDMI mode rather than EXPANDED mode.

I'm not familiar with the dr1394 disc. There is a chance it may be poorly authored as far as the luminance value of black.

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post #639 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

DR.

GAMMA should be set to OFF for the calibration.

Understood. I have merely been attempting to achieve a resonable black level regardless of accuracy.

Quote:
The "HALL" values reflect the actual brightness values through the projector. As you adjust the OPEN or CLOSED REG settings, you can check the HALL readings to see if the values continue to increase/decrease according to your adjustments. You should note, the HALL readings will fluctuate +/- if without any adjustments, it's not a problem but something to keep in mind if you use the HALL readings and the service manual to make calibration settings.

This agrees whith what I saw.

Quote:
Make sure your source, or anything in the signal chain, are using the NORMAL HDMI mode rather than EXPANDED mode.

The only source this could be an issue with would be the A1 and I have made sure in is not in "Expanded Black" mode.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with the dr1394 disc. There is a chance it may be poorly authored as far as the luminance value of black.

Sure. Would you suggest the AVS HD 709 disc?
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post #640 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 11:00 AM
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I have read good things about that free HD disc, although I have yet to try building a HD disc.

I still use the Get Gray and Avia Pro calibrations SD-DVDs.

For HD signals, I am taking a different route trying to use the CalMAN pattern generator out of the HDMI port on a Dell 1525 laptop.

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post #641 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

...Sure. Would you suggest the AVS HD 709 disc?

Actually I'm very surprised you haven't bothered to get this "free" download yet...
Question: What are you comparing the black level of your VW-60 to? What is your expectation from this pj?

My own personal experience is that "black" being projected from any light source will never be even close to pure black, which by one definition is actually the absence of any light. When I (from memory only) compare my VW-60's black level to other pj's I've owned or seen in the past, I believe it to be the deepest black (dark grey) of the bunch but also providing the best in shadow details, however only a true side-by-side comparison would reveal just how much better. Now if I try to compare it to our Samsung 650 LCD TV, its not even close... the blacks and shadow details are sooo exceptional on that TV, I doubt any projector (regardless of the contrast ratio numbers they are 'selling') will ever be able to attain anything near the Samsung's capability.

I don't play around with service menu settings for the most part, my reasoning kinda goes like this... if it were possible to easily and greatly improve black levels withOUT compromising other things such as shadow details, don't you think Sony would have already did it for you? Isn't it in their best interest to get you the best black level in combo with excellent shadow details? I would suspect that if any further adjustments can effect an improvement, it will be very minor adjustments.

From the pix you've posted, it's true your pj looks very bright indeed but I'm not knowledgeable enough about camera exposure settings, etc to fairly judge just what your picture represents in actual light levels because I believe the 'brightness' of your picture depends mostly upon the exposure setting, but also any ambient lighting, reflections of any light spill, etc. So I suggest all you can do is purchase a real screen then calibrate brightness, contrast next RGB level balance the greyscale and finally set a reasonable gamma (somewhere around 2.1 might be most pleasing) and see if you like what the Sony is showing you. If not, return it and try something else... and you now have the screen and calibration tools and software to set it too up properly. Really don't know what else to tell ya, I don't know any special 'trick' set-ups to get you deeper blacks than what a good calibration will turn up... and without personally being in your theater and experiencing what you are seeing I can't really comment on how your VW-60 compares to mine from just some posted pix. Sorry I can't be of more help.

BTW, my home theater is the proverbial "Batcave"... the screen is flanked on either side by 5 feet of dark burgundy velvet curtains, the ceiling is painted flat-black and covered with a sheen-less black jersey cloth with the area next to the screen being a black velvet-lined ledge and a black velvet curtain below the screen (from screen-to-floor) concealing the subwoofer and some bass traps... the rest of the room is covered in either black cloth, or very dark grey acoustical foam or dark burgundy burlap DIY acoustical treatments. The screen itself has a 4" black velvet border all around and my big Infinity Reference Six speakers on either side of it is also covered in black velvet along with the Infinity 360 center speaker. Its all in our basement so it is completely light-proof. When its movie-time and the lights go out, everything but the screen effectively 'disappears'... and so there's really nothing to reflect light back onto the screen except for the beaming faces in the audience.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #642 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 11:41 AM
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No, you and Bytehoven have been of great help to all of us! I think I can speak for eveyone sho views this thread that you have both contributed greatly towards furthering owner's knowledge of this projector. Thank you.

To give more background as to why I chose the exposure I did was this post from Jason Turk of a VW40 and an Epson ProCinema1080UB.

His was a 30 sec exposure while mine was only 15 with the same f/ratio and ISO speed. I can only imagine what a 30 sec exposure on my screen would look like!
And yes, I am coming from a 34" Sony XS955 CRT that have tweaked to near perfection but I don't believe I have any unreasonable expectations for a PJ.

Just looking for sugggestions on whether this looks like something correctable or if it's an RMA issue.

Again, my many thanks for even engaging me in my time of worry.
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post #643 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

BTW, my home theater is the proverbial "Batcave"... the screen is flanked on either side by 5 feet of dark burgundy velvet curtains, the ceiling is painted flat-black and covered with a sheen-less black jersey cloth with the area next to the screen being a black velvet-lined ledge and a black velvet curtain below the screen (from screen-to-floor) concealing the subwoofer and some bass traps... the rest of the room is covered in either black cloth, or very dark grey acoustical foam or dark burgundy burlap DIY acoustical treatments. The screen itself has a 4" black velvet border all around and my big Infinity Reference Six speakers on either side of it is also covered in black velvet along with the Infinity 360 center speaker. Its all in our basement so it is completely light-proof. When its movie-time and the lights go out, everything but the screen effectively 'disappears'.

Monomer,
Im curious, do you have a CIH setup? If not, are yo using any sort of masking system for 2.35:1 movies?

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post #644 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 05:48 PM
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Doc Spank... interesting idea/post for making a black level comparison from Jason, however I'm thinking both environment (wall/ceiling treatments, etc.) and choice of screen material would have a major affect upon the resulting photos and so I'm not really sure your pix could realistically be used for any direct comparisons to Jason's or anyone else's pictures for that matter. I might suggest you get a better screen though as that wall board you are using in the photos appears to be very smooth, glossy and obviously is hot-spotting quite a bit and that will not show any projector at its fullest potential... but I think you are already aware of that (coming from a comment in a previous posting of yours).

MarkH... nope, I suffer the black (dark grey) bars top and bottom on 2.35:1 material. Back when I used my HTPC with Zoom Player exclusively, I would have all 2.35:1 stuff automatically shifted to the top of the screen and then I simply lifted a long (12foot) bar with a black velvet curtain on it and set it on a couple of hooks that coincided with the bottom of the picture, thus creating a complete black velvet frame around just that portion of the screen with the picture. It really does enhance the apparent contrast quite a bit... however with my current set-up (all set-top boxes now) I decided to forego the hassle of trying to do an all curtain solution... and unfortunately a CIH set-up is really more expense than I am willing to take on just now so that's not an alternative. (Truth be told, I'm kind of a cheap bastard and will only do that 'extra mile' if I can find a really cheap solution to get me there.)

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #645 of 1581 Old 11-20-2008, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

I decided to forego the hassle of trying to do an all curtain solution... and unfortunately a CIH set-up is really more expense than I am willing to take on just now so that's not an alternative. (Truth be told, I'm kind of a cheap bastard and will only do that 'extra mile' if I can find a really cheap solution to get me there.)

Fair enough call mate. I myself am planning on some DIY masking using some form of foam board covered with black velour/flocking for both top and bottom of my 92" screen, in fact I hope to make these over the weekend, as I noticed the bulk of HD collection favours the wider aspect. With DVD the bulk of my collection was still in favour of the taller ratios.

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post #646 of 1581 Old 11-21-2008, 08:41 AM
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Got the new screen material last night. Quite a dramatic difference!

Plugged the source directly into the projector. No change in black level. Tried the other HDMI port. No difference.

I have been able to tame the glow with adjustments to the BIAS/GAIN settings in the Service Menu. Maybe Bytehoven could verify if adjustments made in the SM have the same impact as adjusting them from the User Menu.
Blue appears to have the most significant effect on black level in my unit.

Much more pleased. I have 12hrs on the bulb and an i1 on the way. Definitely feeling more optimistic...

Quote:
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Doc Spank... interesting idea/post for making a black level comparison from Jason, however I'm thinking both environment (wall/ceiling treatments, etc.) and choice of screen material would have a major affect upon the resulting photos and so I'm not really sure your pix could realistically be used for any direct comparisons to Jason's or anyone else's pictures for that matter. I might suggest you get a better screen though as that wall board you are using in the photos appears to be very smooth, glossy and obviously is hot-spotting quite a bit and that will not show any projector at its fullest potential... but I think you are already aware of that (coming from a comment in a previous posting of yours).

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post #647 of 1581 Old 11-21-2008, 10:17 AM
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based on reports from others, USER menu bias/gain adjustments achieve the same effect as using the service menu, and are safer for those who might accidently change something else while in the SM.

There may be an advantage of slightly finer adjustment with the SM controls, but I did not notice the user mode controls to be lacking. If the SM menu controls were as I had seen in the past, and that is reflecting values other than <128> across the board, they could be used to determine how different one projector was from another. In that regard, the SM bias/gain settings provide no insight. It also makes me wonder if there is another FACTORY MENU for the HW10, since some other menu features are missing from what I can access on the HS51A. The only way to know for sure will be to order a service manual for the HW10 when they become available.

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post #648 of 1581 Old 11-22-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

I remember reading a thread in which the topic of discussion surrounded whether the fractional pixel adjustment of the Sony was detrimental to the image. Some were in favor of adjustments of a full pixel so that no "scaling artifacts" could creep in.


This is what I was looking for.

To that end, I found that by using the Dot Pattern in the "Convergence" section of DVE HD (which appeared to cycle between single pixel and double vertically aligned pixels) that the sub-pixel alignment did have a negative effect on resolution.
For me, sharpest focus and alignment is confimed when the inter-pixel area is darkest/best defined.
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post #649 of 1581 Old 11-26-2008, 08:21 AM
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Just completed my first calibration on the PJ last night. It was an enjoyable process, to be honest!

My elevated black level's cause was revealed to me in my Gamma...it tracked @ 1.9 from 0% to 100%! Even an attempt at running with GAMMA3 only brought it down to 2.0.

I was quite surprised how easy it was to dial in the RBG levels.

Here is a breakdown:

VW60 @ 19'onto a 10' wide Wilsonart DW screen (net 10ftL after calibration)

24hrs on bulb

AVS HD709 disc over HDMI from Samsung BD-P2550

Picture Mode: User 1
Iris: Off
Lamp mode: High
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 52 (necessary to prevent crushing @ 16)
Color: 50
Hue: 50
Color Space: Wide
Color mode: Custom 3
RG: 7
GG: 0
BG: -27
RB: 7
GB: -10\\_Done to lower black level
BB: -10/

Black level adjust: Off
Gamma adjust: Off

Oddly enough, my blacks have gotten brighter. Just gotta get the null modem cable to see if wrangling Gamma back to 2.2 will help. Still feel like there is something amiss...
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post #650 of 1581 Old 11-26-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

Just completed my first calibration on the PJ last night. It was an enjoyable process, to be honest!

My elevated black levels cause was revealed to me in my Gamma...it tracked @ 1.9 from 0% to 100%! Even an attempt at running with GAMMA3 only brought it down to 2.0.

I was quite surprised how easy it was to dial in the RBG levels.

Here is a breakdown:

VW60 @ 19'onto a 10' wide Wilsonart DW screen (net 10ftL after calibration)

24hrs on bulb

AVS HD709 disc over HDMI from Samsung BD-P2550

Picture Mode: User 1
Iris: Off
Lamp mode: High
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 52 (necessary to prevent crushing @ 16)
Color: 50
Hue: 50
Color Space: Wide
Color mode: Custom 3
RG: 7
GG: 0
BG: -27
RB: 7 GB: -10\\_Done to lower black level
BB: -10/

Black level adjust: Off
Gamma adjust: Off

Oddly enough, my blacks have gotten brighter. Just gotta get the null modem cable to see if wrangling Gamma back to 2.2 will help. Still feel like there is something amiss...

Fantastic, looks good... in fact, your settings are quite similar to mine except for Color... I find 50 far too saturated and almost cartoonish in many movies. In the end, I keep my Color set at around 37, go on and give it a try and see if you like it... pay special attention to skin tones as they go from looking a little sun weathered to appearing more natural and life-like. You are going to be very impressed at just how powerful ImageDirector is... a custom gamma the way you like it and a dead flat RGB levels from 20-IRE to 100-IRE and almost flat at 10-IRE... when you are finished let us know how pleased you are with your results.

BTW, I personally don't fool with Green... I think it'll become more apparent to you when you get some time in playing around in ImageDirector... there is a relationship between Red and Blue with the Green... you'll see.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #651 of 1581 Old 11-26-2008, 08:59 AM
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I really don't think that changing gamma on my vw60 changed absolute black. I hope you can prove me wrong about that and get blacks as you like.
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post #652 of 1581 Old 11-26-2008, 09:13 AM
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@ monomer,

I'll post the screen caps from my session. I thought they came out very nice. All deltaE above 20%IRE under 3 (most under 2). I will try to pull back on the color, you're probably right...

@ Irish_Comer,

That would be sad for me to discover! Maybe if I had a few luminance values for 0%-10% IRE that others were getting, I might be able to determine if I am being unreasonable in my black level requirements.

As above, I am only getting just under 10ftL @ 100% IRE from a 19' throw in High lamp mode. You'd think my contrast would be a little better given the throw. Maybe it is an issue that can only be attended to with the DI, but I am not liking it's effects...

Also the brighted corners are more apparant now and I also have noticed some color banding where I don't think I should (Cars (blu-ray)-Opening the interior view the tailgate of the semi opens.)

Could this come from having my dynamic range too stretched (ie setting contrast too high and brightness too low OR Wide Color mode)?
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Monomer...

When running in wide color mode and then pulling back the master color to desaturate, did you adjust by eye or did you reference the adjustment on a CIE plot to get red/green/blue back on their pegs?

I ask because I am thinking of doing the same with the HW10. There are times I don't mind the Wide mode as is, but having the track closer to the HD Rec709 triangle would be preferred for some content.

Any tips on your color adjustments would be most welcome.

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post #654 of 1581 Old 11-26-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Monomer...

When running in wide color mode and then pulling back the master color to desaturate, did you adjust by eye or did you reference the adjustment on a CIE plot to get red/green/blue back on their pegs?

I ask because I am thinking of doing the same with the HW10. There are times I don't mind the Wide mode as is, but having the track closer to the HD Rec709 triangle would be preferred for some content.

Any tips on your color adjustments would be most welcome.

Not sure I completely understand your question, so let me side step it by telling you what I did in the past....

The first time around, before I had the cabling to use ImageDirector, I calibrated the pj to the point of RGB level balancing the greyscale at 30-IRE and 80-IRE, next while using Normal Color Space and my Oppo (SD DVD calibration disc), I attempted to dial in the primaries and secondaries to match 601 coordinates using the RCP system provided... I got as close as I could but when I went back to check the greyscale the RGB level balance was all out of whack. So I rebalanced and found the primary and secondary coordinates had now moved so I used RCP to get them back but then the RGB levels had changed in response so on and on... round and round it went until after doing more than an hour's worth of iterations I got both pretty darn close. However, I did notice Lightening McQueen's color was now slightly more orange than the color shown on the cover. Next I decided to do Wide Color Space using my Sony Blu-ray (BD calibration disc) and match the 709 coordinates... same routine ensued with the exception that I was able to nail the primaries and secondaries coordinates dead-on every iteration. However after all the iterations were completed and it was looking good for both color coordinates AND RGB level balance at the 30 and 80 IREs, Lightening McQueen was now a bit redder that his picture on the cover. All in all, I was pretty please with what all my hard effort appeared to have achieved... THEN when viewing some night scenes from Cars it became apparent that the color balance in the lower IREs completely sucked, it was all way off where red was puke brown etc. In the end I turn RCP off completely and was rewarded with colors that looked pretty darn good at default AND my RGB level balanced much better all across the greyscale.

Later after I was able to access the pj RGB gamma through ImageDirector I figured out that the whole greyscale can be fine tuned for each of the gammas for R, G, and B from within ImageDirector... so perhaps I could have yet fully balanced the greyscale from end-to-end AND nailed the 709 coordinates perfectly too, however I'm no longer game to try it all again as all that tweaking just wore me out the first time.

As far as my adjustment of the Color parameter in the user menu... it basically is a saturation adjustment. I tried recording the luminance of a 100-IRE white screen and then tried matching the luminance of a 100% Red screen to 21% of that number by using the Color adjustment... and found it couldn't be done. Eventually I just gave up and adjusted it using the calibrated eye-ball (the one in my head). I didn't bother to check the primary color coordinates as I assumed adjusting Color wouldn't have had any effect on them.... plus they are not perfectly set anyway, being left at default (refer to the above discussion). Bottomline, I feel, is that the primary and secondary colors are not that far off in default to begin with and I really don't believe anyone can see the slight deviations, not without software and a meter anyway.

I hope what I've written here is not too convoluted or whacked out to be understood... it is simply a little history of what I have tried so far.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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Thanks. Not whacked out at all, rather what others have been telling me to expect from RCP.

It seems the only real value of RCP might be to make sure the HUE for primaries and secondaries are on their proper axis. But any attempt to adjust saturation & hue to peg the colors is met with uncontrollable changes in lightness/Y tint shifts that cause the types of issues you mention.

Thanks. It saves me wasting time, which I can spend doing something different.

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post #656 of 1581 Old 11-27-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

...Brightness: 52 (necessary to prevent crushing @ 16)...

Try 51 as that bar representing 16 doesn't need to be flashing, just everything above it. 51 does this in my set up and my guess is your pj is very much like mine, judging by your calibrated settings. However our Gain/Bias settings are very different but there are many reasons for this, one being I don't adjust Green (left defaulted @ 0), only Red and Blue is used to balance the greyscale.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #657 of 1581 Old 11-29-2008, 05:58 AM
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@ monomer,

Thanks, I was wondering that.


Here are a few of my HCFR files. As you can see, the gamma never gets anywhere 2.2 but it tracks very well. Sometimes I have tried to calibrate with Auto 1 on. This results in a crush (gamma off the upper part of the chart-3.6+) in everything between 30% and 60% but the lower and upper extremes are STILL at 1.9 gamma.

Even with lowered panel driver settings (which does bring the middle luminance down), there still appears to be a "gamma boost" that is applied to everything above 70% and under 30%. It makes it VERY hard to get the lower IRE to look right. Either the black is elevated in the red and a 10% window is pushed green or vice-versa.
Isn't there a gamma compensation/algorithm that is applied when the DI is utilized? Could it be that mine is set so as to be constantly "ON"?

Is anyone aware of the setting in the Service Menu that controls this? I'd like to try and disable it for further experiments....

ARgghhh, I really am feeling like this is getting away from me. I'm no newbie to calibrating TVs, but these projectors are giving me fits!


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..as Alice would say.

Now I'm completely befuddled. An attempt to utilize the "Manual" iris to 100% proved that something is wrong with my projector. When switching from 100% manual to "Off" there is an incredible ammount of crush in the image!

The picture looks quite good with the iris manually open to 100%, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having this projector. With Iris 1, darker scenes are completely flat from the gamma boost that is applied while the bright scenes look fine. Iris 2 seems better as it favors peak whites, but still not an agreeable picture in darker scenes.

I'm still unable to get a gamma level under 1.9 and I have to have my Bias settings for Blue and Green lowered to get an acceptable black (without Red or Green contamination).

Still want to know what is happening with the difference in Manual and Off. I have tried Bytehoven's iris tweak (down to 150 from 442) but it only seemed to exacerbate the gamma boost at lower levels, creating the flat/washed-out dark scenes.

Anyone have some theories?
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post #659 of 1581 Old 11-30-2008, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
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...Anyone have some theories?

Okay, guess I'll take a go at it...
Firstly, my guess is you are expecting far more in black level and contrast than what these projectors are currently capable of... probably due to comparing them against the performance of more recent high level LCD flat panels (and CRTs are just plain unfair competition). Secondly, is by lowering Green you are lowering your luminance big time and you must remember your Eye-One is not to be trusted at anything below 10-IRE and considered only useful for general ballpark for below 20-IRE. Just for an example: Using Custom3 as a starting point my values are as follows... Gain- R:+6 G:0 B:+2 Bias- R:+10 G:0 B:+8 However, it must be remembered that these were only my starting values which is obtained BEFORE I create my custom gamma curves in ImageDirector. If you haven't yet experienced ImageDirector, you need to be aware that not only can you custom design your gamma curve but you can also then perfectly balance the RGB levels at every single point along the gamma curve (which you will always need to do after any gamma adjustments). I'm currently using a custom gamma curve that starts around 2.08 and climbs to 2.2 by 30-IRE then levels off around 2.35 for the rest of the greyscale. This seems to give me good shadow detail and some 'pop' at the lower IRE levels while also giving good contrast at the higher IREs. If you've seen my earlier HCFR graph postings you'll see what I mean about an extremely flat RGB level balance... that was only made possible by the use of ImageDirector.

And of course another possibility is that your projector is indeed malfunctioning... its really hard to say anything for sure because we only have descriptions being exchange on a forum to go by. This much I can tell you about my VW-60... it is very good compared to other LCD pjs I've owned or seen in the past, however it is not in the same league as the current crop of LCD TVs and I don't believe my projector is faulty. Possibly you might be falling victim to all the hyperbole and superlatives that often pepper enthusiastic hyper-reviews of new projectors? What other projectors have you owned previously to the Sony? What kind of black level performance did they have? How good was their shadow detail?

Also have you tried calibrating without messing with the Green level? One thing that struck me about what you've reported so far is your extremely low ftL readings... at 18feet projected onto a 97" dia 16:9 matte white 1.1 gain screen I get just around 16ftL on High Lamp mode and that's with over 600 hours on the lamp! In Low Lamp it measures somewhere below 10ftL (sorry I can't be more precise as I haven't measured it since ~500 hours and I believe it was right around 10 ftL then) but it was 12ftL at 100hours. Either your screen is just plain huge and/or gain is quite low or something really is wrong with your projector. The general rule is the higher your ftL, the more pop you will see in both darker and brighter scenes... lower fL will give a more washed-out appearance especially in dark scenes. So another suggestion is re-calibrate your pj but this time unzoom until you have the proper ftL (strive for at least 12 ftL min but 16 ftL should allow for an outstanding PQ experience once fully calibrated) and then calibrate your greyscale without touching the Green level (leaving both Gain and Bias at default 0) and leaving all the service menu items at their factory default settings... then report back here with your results/findings... that should give us more in common to work from.

BTW, make sure you have Auto Iris in OFF and Black Level Adjust also OFF during calibration... also leave Gamma OFF until you are ready to measure it or adjust it in ImageDirector. Only AFTER calibration should you then turn the Auto Iris back ON... personally I like to use Auto Iris 1 and mostly leave Black Level Adjust to OFF.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #660 of 1581 Old 11-30-2008, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

..as Alice would say.

Now I'm completely befuddled. An attempt to utilize the "Manual" iris to 100% proved that something is wrong with my projector. When switching from 100% manual to "Off" there is an incredible ammount of crush in the image!

The picture looks quite good with the iris manually open to 100%, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having this projector. With Iris 1, darker scenes are completely flat from the gamma boost that is applied while the bright scenes look fine. Iris 2 seems better as it favors peak whites, but still not an agreeable picture in darker scenes.

I'm still unable to get a gamma level under 1.9 and I have to have my Bias settings for Blue and Green lowered to get an acceptable black (without Red or Green contamination).

Still want to know what is happening with the difference in Manual and Off. I have tried Bytehoven's iris tweak (down to 150 from 442) but it only seemed to exacerbate the gamma boost at lower levels, creating the flat/washed-out dark scenes.

Anyone have some theories?


Any chance you could post some pics of the issues you're seeing? Reason I ask is it may be similar to what I was seeing in this post earlier? Ive been believing a lot of these units are somewhat defective (despite having had 2 now) but I have been able to achieve a great image from mine now without compromising much shadow detail, despite knowing the problem exists on my unit. When I reach 100 hours, I will finally do a proper calibration.

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