Sony VPL-VW60 Tweakers Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1581 Old 02-20-2009, 11:26 PM
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This works with HW10. After pushing Enter Enter Left Enter push MENU button. At the bottom there is DEVICE menu. Enter that.
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post #722 of 1581 Old 02-21-2009, 02:30 PM
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Thanks for the reply, I discovered the problem. Weak batteries in the remote! I'd seen this before with previous systems where you can't enter certain menus without fresh batteries. Weird. Now instead of asking me to return to user menu, it asks if I want service menu (hadn't seen that until changing the batteries).

George
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post #723 of 1581 Old 03-26-2009, 03:38 PM
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i was wondering if any of you could help me out with calibrating my VPL-VW60. the image that's being projected isn't as "eye-popping" as it should be. it has a very dull look to it, and the HD isn't able to reach its full capacity because if this. so, if u guys have any calibration settings that will really give the projector a bright and vibrant look, please help me out.

thanks,
Nihit
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post #724 of 1581 Old 03-26-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nihitter05 View Post

i was wondering if any of you could help me out with calibrating my VPL-VW60. the image that's being projected isn't as "eye-popping" as it should be. it has a very dull look to it, and the HD isn't able to reach its full capacity because if this. so, if u guys have any calibration settings that will really give the projector a bright and vibrant look, please help me out.

thanks,
Nihit

If you're simply looking for a calibration that makes the image "pop" rather than an accurate calibration, then I'd play around with the settings until you're happy. You might want to consider starting with the black level, gamma 3, and wide color mode.
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post #725 of 1581 Old 03-26-2009, 05:28 PM
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thanks man. but the problem is i don't know how to use the advance settings in my projector. i have been playing around with the black levels and gamma but no matter how i set those levels, the image won't be clear enough, or it may be fuzzy, etc. i read in the previous entries about a hidden menu that lets u do things like gamma correction. i didn't mess with it because i was too scared that it might leave a permanent effect.
so, overall i was wondering how to set make the projector have a vibrant look and also be clear and fluent the same time?
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post #726 of 1581 Old 03-28-2009, 09:06 AM
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Have you used any sort of set-up disc (AVCHD or Avia or DVE) to check your levels? What are your current settings?
Do you mind me asking where/who you bought this from?

Your use of terms like "flat", "dull" & "fuzzy" does make it sound like a gamma issue. Mine was extremely low when I received mine. I had to do a fair amount of tweaking in the Service Menu to get a satisfying picture, but I'm very happy with it now. Much more dimensional than where it started.

Do you find the picture varies it it's flatness based on the overall brightness (APL or Average Picture Level) of the scene you are watching? Prior to adjusting, low APL scenes suffered the most, mid APL was o.k. and high APL flattened out again. Only after I bought an i1 to measure what was goin on, was I able to make the proper adjustments (along with the guidance and experience from old posts/current members!)

As Fabbas suggested, start with Gamma 3 mode and add the Black Level "Low". Check with a calibration disc (AVCHD is great AND free) to make sure you aren't clipping the black or white levels.
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post #727 of 1581 Old 03-28-2009, 02:05 PM
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no i haven't used any calibration disks. would a calibration disk help solve the problem?
the current settings are:
Picture Mode : user 1
Advance Iris manual at 75
Low Lamp Mode
Contrast : Max
Brightness : 48
Color : 50
Hue : 50
Color Temp : custom 1 ; Gain : R 19, G -9, B -22 : Bias - R 5, G 0, B -6
Sharpness : 5
Gamma Correction 1
Black level is off
Color space is wide

it seems like the projector isn't outputting as much light as it should be.
i bought the projector from projectorcenter.com
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post #728 of 1581 Old 03-29-2009, 10:59 AM
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Those don't sound like they would be problematic, the Gamma 1 is most likely boosting the darker areas of the picture-giving the impression of a "brighter" picture at the expense of contrast/depth of the image.

Having you contrast at MAX is sure to bring out issues, I'd start with 80~90. Contrast should not be the means by which you adjust overall brightness.

Another part of this equation would be: What size image are you projecting? On what type of screen/surface?
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post #729 of 1581 Old 03-29-2009, 04:31 PM
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The screen i have is an Elite 120 inch. It's a gray background.
Are there any settings in the service menu that would help make the image brighter, because the amount of light being projected just make the screen look dull? These settings have helped, but the image still isn't as vibrant as it should be.
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post #730 of 1581 Old 03-30-2009, 08:13 AM
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I was of the belief that you need a PJ with high lumens to get an image to "pop" with a gray screen. Seems it's primary function is to help with black levels.

You could pump up the Panel Drivers up, but to do so would be at the expense of color accuracy PLUS the potential to degrade the SXRD panels.

At first I thought you might have a gamma issue, but your mention of a grey screen seems to account for the "dull" image.

Just my opinion...
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post #731 of 1581 Old 03-30-2009, 11:34 AM
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Hello,

Got a refurbished VW60 today and am learning to set it up.

Black levels seems amazingly poor, I couldn't have imagined they would be this bad but maybe I just need a little more time to configure it better. Edit - There's no black crush and black in a scene of mixed light is nice and inky but something like a total black frame like the opening scene in cars is pretty well lit and seems blu-ish a tad.

I tried some settings I found here and also did some experimentation.

Anyway,.. in the service menu the pj says it has 4 total operational hours. Is that easily reset or did I get a very nearly new pj?

=Brian
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post #732 of 1581 Old 03-30-2009, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

I was of the belief that you need a PJ with high lumens to get an image to "pop" with a gray screen. Seems it's primary function is to help with black levels.

You could pump up the Panel Drivers up, but to do so would be at the expense of color accuracy PLUS the potential to degrade the SXRD panels.

At first I thought you might have a gamma issue, but your mention of a grey screen seems to account for the "dull" image.

Just my opinion...

so, how would i pump up the panel drivers and would you recommend doing it if buying a new screen isn't an option?
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post #733 of 1581 Old 03-30-2009, 01:50 PM
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@ nihitter05,

Personally, I wouldn't consider doing it as a permanent adjustment (but I generally err on the side of caution). You aren't going to see a substantial increase in brightness for the potential risk. I would just go with the lamp HIGH to accomodate. I would also suggest you take some of the money you saved on the purchase and get an i1 or Spyder 3 and download AVCHD to get a handle of what's in need of adjusting. (Best investment next to my RS SPL meter!)

@ Brian,

I was following your thread, glad things worked out! I have been struggling for, what I would consider, the decent black levels that all the reviews raved about on this unit. But since this is my first experience with front projection, I may have been expecting too much (like you coming from the CRT camp).

It wasn't until I had about 40hrs on the lamp that I acquired an i1 and did my first measurements. I'm not sure I would even been able to calibrate a moderate black level within that first week, the bulb was just uber-bright. After that, between 100~200hrs the bulb finally settled into it's current brightness in which the black levels have improved substantially.

Give it some time and get ready to tweak quite a bit....
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post #734 of 1581 Old 03-30-2009, 01:54 PM
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Thanks,

I do think it's a new bulb.... I think you are right, it will dim a bit and I'll be all set.

(Plus, I'll get used to it and forget the inky crt's a bit.)

In all other regards this pj is fantastic. I could never dial in convergence of my CRT perfect like this and .... it doesn't drift either.

I hope the bulbs for these remain available for a while so I can stock up.


-Brian
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post #735 of 1581 Old 04-06-2009, 09:20 PM
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Guys,
Some of you may remember the issues I was having a few months ago on both the VW60 units Ive had. I used some suggested settings which tamed the problem, and I decided to wait till I reached the 100th hour before I did a full calibration and then got stuck into Image Director. Ive only just reached that mark, so plan to calibrate in the next few days. I need to stipulate that I have NEVER changed anything in the service menu.
So anyway, decided to play a bit of Left 4 Dead on the Pj last night and noticed a lot of solarisation on screen during the menus, which, while different to the pixelation I first experienced on some movies many months ago, its similar to the test pattern issue I experienced (here).

Anyway here's a (poor) pic from last night:- PJ has perfect convergence, just my shaky arm!



What do you guys think needs to be done? This doesnt crop up on movies, except the odd time and not to the same intensity, but it does lead me to believe these VW60 are very poor out of the box in terms of gamma. You'll remember I replace my first unit because of these issues, so the chance of a second unit with a fault is pretty slim (though not impossible).
Anyway, Im hoping you guys can assure me a calibration will solve this!

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post #736 of 1581 Old 04-06-2009, 11:45 PM
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So the background of that menu is supposed to be all one colour and those swirly patterns aren't meant to be there?
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post #737 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 07:24 AM
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Mark,

I definately get the blocky issue you describe - we imported from the same place. It is an inconsistent issue, whilst some movies show it (usually darker blacks), other's dont at all. I havn't seen anything to the extent that you've just posted above though. I wonder if there is something inherently wrong with the processing of these signals :/ although if that were the case, it should appear on all units....
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post #738 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 12:28 PM
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Mark,

Not happy that you and I are still having problems, but glad to hear you are ready to tackle them! Let's get to the bottom of this together!

The issues you described in the test patterns my have to do with a poor burn of the disc. I would download the latest and burn with a slow setting on a quality disc. My blu-ray play would sometime garble some of the full-screen resolution patterns until I re-burned a disc. Some patterns wouldn't show and subsequently make the screen blank when the player was set to 24fps output. Just a couple things to check...

I was attempting to rally some others that have seen this issue by starting this thread. Not much response. It must be the way the Dynamic Gamma is applied to a specific range of low APL scenes. Now to determine a good way to calibrate for use with AutoIris so as not to lose shadow detail.

Maybe there is just one adjustment in the service menu that could correct this (like when video cards used to have a dip-switch for PAL/NTSC). We both seem to suffer the same poor gamma level and black level. Even after I sent my unit into Sony in Laredo, it still measured the same 1.8 gamma across the 20-100IRE levels. But looking closer at the HCFR readings, the biggest jump was from 0-20IRE. So comming out of black so quickly may be contributing to the "artifacts" we are seeing.

I have to borrow a PC with a serial port to get started with Image Director.

Keep us informed....
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post #739 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tripp View Post

So the background of that menu is supposed to be all one colour and those swirly patterns aren't meant to be there?

Hi Ken,
No its supposed to be more than one colour, but the solarisation I guess makes the screen look like an 8-bit colour depth rather than 32-bit, is probably the bext explanation.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausdavep View Post

Mark,

I definately get the blocky issue you describe - we imported from the same place. It is an inconsistent issue, whilst some movies show it (usually darker blacks), other's dont at all. I havn't seen anything to the extent that you've just posted above though. I wonder if there is something inherently wrong with the processing of these signals :/ although if that were the case, it should appear on all units....

Yeah Ive been able to use some settings that reduce the effect in movies, but having seen it before, makes watching movies a little less enjoyable, as sometimes when it appears I question if it is indeed the PJ processing or just poor black levels in the scene of the movie itself, which some movies seem to have.
Of course I seriously need to do a calibration soon to get this thing up to its potential.

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post #741 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

Mark,

Not happy that you and I are still having problems, but glad to hear you are ready to tackle them! Let's get to the bottom of this together!

The issues you described in the test patterns my have to do with a poor burn of the disc. I would download the latest and burn with a slow setting on a quality disc. My blu-ray play would sometime garble some of the full-screen resolution patterns until I re-burned a disc. Some patterns wouldn't show and subsequently make the screen blank when the player was set to 24fps output. Just a couple things to check...

I was attempting to rally some others that have seen this issue by starting this thread. Not much response. It must be the way the Dynamic Gamma is applied to a specific range of low APL scenes. Now to determine a good way to calibrate for use with AutoIris so as not to lose shadow detail.

Maybe there is just one adjustment in the service menu that could correct this (like when video cards used to have a dip-switch for PAL/NTSC). We both seem to suffer the same poor gamma level and black level. Even after I sent my unit into Sony in Laredo, it still measured the same 1.8 gamma across the 20-100IRE levels. But looking closer at the HCFR readings, the biggest jump was from 0-20IRE. So comming out of black so quickly may be contributing to the "artifacts" we are seeing.

I have to borrow a PC with a serial port to get started with Image Director.

Keep us informed....


Hey Doc,
Yeah it would be great if we can eliminate these issues, and like you Im convinced something in the service menu can do this, but I aint playing around with anything until some proof exists!
I would like to get this unit up to full potential WITHOUT using the AutoIris though - I have bad luck with previous brands and their lenses!

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post #742 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

Hi Ken,
No its supposed to be more than one colour, but the solarisation I guess makes the screen look like an 8-bit colour depth rather than 32-bit, is probably the bext explanation.

If it's more like color contouring/banding then sounds like a colour depth processing issue rather than gamma.

Maybe some better screenshots and in colour might help explain.

And you guys have ruled out source, including player, cables and whatever the signal is going through on it's way to the PJ as well as settings in all?
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post #743 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tripp View Post

If it's more like color contouring/banding then sounds like a colour depth processing issue rather than gamma.

Maybe some better screenshots and in colour might help explain.

And you guys have ruled out source, including player, cables and whatever the signal is going through on it's way to the PJ as well as settings in all?

Hi Ken,
Yes in my situation (which I documented months ago in this very thread) I changed source, copies of the disc in question, cables - everything, yet only the two VW60 units (mind you, the only two Id seen) I had exhibited the problem. Issue does not appear on mt LCD TV (Loewe) which receives the same signal.
I dont really want to clutter up this thread with a load of additional pics, as when I revealed what I believe to be a flaw with these VW60s many many pages back, I was met with some rather interesting comments. As Doc said, people either didnt want to believe it and chose to ignore it, or are convinced its a dodgy unit. But the chances of me getting two units with the EXACT same issue is possible, but incredibly small. Mine even had different build dates, so obviously from a different prouction run.

Perhaps those who see these issues should start a separate thread - what do you think ausdavep, Dr. etc?

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post #744 of 1581 Old 04-07-2009, 08:44 PM
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Ugh, trying to find a laptop with a serial port is impossible. Looked at about 10 so far at work - none have them, onto the family ones. Dont want to move the desktop...

A seperate thread might help. At least to try and narrow down the issues. e.g. I dont think it's ahrdware, otherwise I'd want to see it more uniformly accross the picture. Its not the source, otherwise everyone watching the same movies would be up in arms, I doubt its software, otherwise all VW60 owneres would be up in arms, which leaves settings/calibration. I assume all VW60's come from the same factory, so again, hardware is hard to believe.
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post #745 of 1581 Old 04-08-2009, 07:26 AM
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We could move our discussion here. I'll look into changing the title...
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post #746 of 1581 Old 04-08-2009, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausdavep View Post

Ugh, trying to find a laptop with a serial port is impossible. Looked at about 10 so far at work - none have them, onto the family ones. Dont want to move the desktop...

A seperate thread might help. At least to try and narrow down the issues. e.g. I dont think it's ahrdware, otherwise I'd want to see it more uniformly accross the picture. Its not the source, otherwise everyone watching the same movies would be up in arms, I doubt its software, otherwise all VW60 owneres would be up in arms, which leaves settings/calibration. I assume all VW60's come from the same factory, so again, hardware is hard to believe.

Sound reasoning, thus calibration would definitely be a good place to begin looking for a solution.

Let me take a stab in the dark here... do you by any chance have the RCP enabled? and if so, do you have anything other than zeros set for every and all primary and secondary colors? If yes, try and turn RCP to OFF or set all values for every color to zero and then see if the blocky/dithering is still visible in those dark scenes.

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post #747 of 1581 Old 04-08-2009, 09:21 PM
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RCP was on, turning it off made it worse! I have taken the diuscussion to Dr's thread where I have posted a few pics.
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post #748 of 1581 Old 04-09-2009, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ausdavep View Post

RCP was on, turning it off made it worse! I have taken the diuscussion to Dr's thread where I have posted a few pics.

Im the opposite, turning it on makes mine worse...

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post #749 of 1581 Old 04-09-2009, 12:29 AM
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Ugh, trying to find a laptop with a serial port is impossible. Looked at about 10 so far at work - none have them, onto the family ones. Dont want to move the desktop...

I ended up resorting to buying a serial card for my desktop, which I will have to move into the theatre room at some point in the not too distant future...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

I ended up resorting to buying a serial card for my desktop, which I will have to move into the theatre room at some point in the not too distant future...

Hah, that's exactly what I ended up doing. Originally I got a really long-ass cable (two extensions totalling 35-feet) and ran my a$$-off back and forth between two rooms... the desktop PC was in the far corner of an adjacent room to the 'theater' room that's down in the basement (meaning I also had to traverse 5-steps to another level in the house). I must have walked 10-miles that day and never even left the house. After a couple of these 'long-distance' sessions using ImageDirector, I finally 'bit the bullet' and moved the desktop and a monitor into the theater... know what? it didn't take any time at all... the moving and setting up was quick and the gamma calibration was WAY quicker and easier... I could do in 30-40 minutes what had been taking 2-3 hours or more!

Anyway, I just had to say something as your posting brought me back those memories of 'two-plus hour sessions' trying to balance RGB levels in ImageDirector while walking back and forth across two rooms... pretty insane actually.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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