RS-1, Radiance Primary Gamut Correction - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
still yet more
LL
LL
LL
sfogg is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
elmalloc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
beautiful

Current Projects:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ON HOLD - Building Home Gym.
ON HOLD - Building Simulation Room (Eyefinity).
ON HOLD - Building Theater room (Sim2 HT380, 2.35 14ft wide).
elmalloc is offline  
post #93 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
last group
LL
LL
LL
sfogg is offline  
post #94 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
BTW, in the video processor section Jim mentioned greyscale is coming next, then internal test patterns and then he bumped up the priority on 4:2:2 output at various bit depths to follow that. So over the next few weeks the Radiance is going to gain quite a few more calibration features.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #95 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:41 PM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,463
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Shawn, I merged all of the Radiance specific, useful posts from the other thread into this one so that all of your info could be in one place - just in case you were wondering what happened. This way no one will need to shuffle between the two threads to get all of the info.

_______________________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #96 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks Bob, having it all together makes things easier.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #97 of 839 Old 10-22-2007, 08:50 PM
Senior Member
 
kthacher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 339
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey Bob - this looks like it took a lot of effort. Thanks for resurrecting this very useful thread.

Kerry
kthacher is offline  
post #98 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 09:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Shawn, The only time I noticed color saturation on my RS-1 was with Yoda on Empire Strikes Back. I dont suppose you could post corrected and uncorrected shots of that??? Pretty please?
shamus is offline  
post #99 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:18 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,509
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 201 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Thanks for all those, Shawn.

The only-green-corrected actually look best to me on my computer monitor (LCD, so not really meaningful).

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #100 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"The only time I noticed color saturation on my RS-1 was with Yoda on Empire Strikes Back. I dont suppose you could post corrected and uncorrected shots of that???"

Sure, if I get a chance to play with this tonight I can take a couple for you. Any particular scene/time you would really like to see?

FWIW the DisplayLT arrived today so I will start using that for measurements as it is apparently more accurate then the Spyder2.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #101 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
aaron_hinni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ballwin, MO
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

FWIW the DisplayLT arrived today so I will start using that for measurements as it is apparently more accurate then the Spyder2.

Where did you order your Display LT from? I am also curious where you actually place these things when using a front projector system as they say they are used for "monitors".

Ready, Fire, Aim...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
aaron_hinni is offline  
post #102 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Noah,

"The only-green-corrected actually look best to me on my computer monitor (LCD, so not really meaningful)."

This is the nice thing about having controls. One can use them where they choose to or not at all, it is after all their projector.

I think the green only and uncorrected shots are a little cooler (technically, not subjectively) then the gamut corrected.

I measured color temp last night using Calman v3 on an 80% window and the corrected version was just a hair under 6500K. By eye I think the other two versions looked a little cooler then that but I was rushing last night and didn't measure the temp of either of the other settings.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #103 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Where did you order your Display LT from? I am also curious where you actually place these things when using a front projector system as they say they are used for "monitors"."

B&H Photo Video. I've had the Spyder facing the projector near the screen for the HCFR readings. Calman has a nice feature to help maximize the range of the meter by having you move it closer and closer to the projector while giving you feedback to avoid clipping the meter.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #104 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 02:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"The only time I noticed color saturation on my RS-1 was with Yoda on Empire Strikes Back. I dont suppose you could post corrected and uncorrected shots of that???"

Sure, if I get a chance to play with this tonight I can take a couple for you. Any particular scene/time you would really like to see?

FWIW the DisplayLT arrived today so I will start using that for measurements as it is apparently more accurate then the Spyder2.

Shawn

THANKS!!!
Any scene with Yoda(Empire Strikes Back). He looks really neon and it was the only time I thought negatively about the colors.
shamus is offline  
post #105 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
These are again the gamut corrected, stock and just green gamut correction. I altered the gamut corrected a little from the earlier shots. For the blue primary I was adding quite a bit more green then red and have dialed the two back to being the amount of add between them.

They tend to have Yoda in dark scenes so these were fairly long exposures which tends to change the look of screen shots somewhat.
LL
LL
LL
sfogg is offline  
post #106 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Three more.
LL
LL
LL
sfogg is offline  
post #107 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 08:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 325
I presume it must be an effect of the screenshots, but the colors on those Star Wars shots is bizarre in all three examples - really pale with bizarre blue-green hues. I've used that DVD on a number of different displays and don't remember ever seeing it look like any of those shots.

?

But the other screen shots do seem to portray the effects of the Lumagen better.

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is offline  
post #108 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 08:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Rob Tomlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Shawn, in your opinion, where would you say that the Radiance is currently falling short, if anywhere, in terms of calibrating the RS1?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rob Tomlin is offline  
post #109 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 08:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Rob Tomlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I presume it must be an effect of the screenshots, but the colors on those Star Wars shots is bizarre in all three examples - really pale with bizarre blue-green hues. I've used that DVD on a number of different displays and don't remember ever seeing it look like any of those shots.

?

I agree, but as Shawn said, those were long exposures which can definitely have a significant impact on the color.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rob Tomlin is offline  
post #110 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 10:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Thanks Shawn! Sorry, I was hoping this would be a great example, but I guess it doesnt work that way. Its hard to tell from the pics, but the yellowish around his mouth appears to blend better now?
shamus is offline  
post #111 of 839 Old 10-23-2007, 11:27 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is so difficult to use screen shots. I tried taking a number of screen shots and the results were in no way representative of what I was actually seeing. One major issue is LCD computer screens do not have REC 709 primaries. We cannot evaluate screen shots because anything displayed are converted to the colorspace of the monitor. A screen shot needs to be displayed on a display with the same colorspace as the camera. I will need to experiment with taking pictures in the RAW format, then set the color temp to 6504 in Photoshop. Next, I would need to adjust the picture for color, tint, brightness and contrast so the laptop screen looks identical to the projection screen. Even at that there is no guarantee that when displayed on another computer it would look the same.

Most of the posted screen shots look absolutely terrible on my laptop, not even close to how good my RS1 looks.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
GlenC is offline  
post #112 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Rich,

"I presume it must be an effect of the screenshots, but the colors on those Star Wars shots is bizarre in all three examples - really pale with bizarre blue-green hues. I've used that DVD on a number of different displays and don't remember ever seeing it look like any of those shots"

That is from the long exposures. The long exposure tends to highlight colors much more then in the darker areas and you also get more noise from the cameras sensor itself with long exposures. If you have a camera try take a few screen shots on a darker scene and you should see what happens to the picture.

In those three Empire shots just look at relative differences, don't consider those what they looked like on screen as that wasn't what they looked like. Even then it is hard to see what changed. One of the many limitations of trying to judge this from screen shots and not seeing it first hand.

On screen just looking at Yoda they all looked different but I couldn't really decide which looked 'better.' It didn't jump out at me like the earlier differences did. Yoda didn't seem very neon green to me even on the totally uncorrected shots but I also only watched the couple of sections where I took the pictures. Maybe in other scenes it stood out more?

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #113 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Rob,

"in your opinion, where would you say that the Radiance is currently falling short, if anywhere, in terms of calibrating the RS1?"

Per the charts it hasn't pulled green all the way in yet, though what it has done so far has obviously made a big difference. I think Lumagen is hoping to release the version with twice the Gamut correction range today so I will have to see how that changes the my impressions of the picture.

The Radiance doesn't have any of the greyscale/gamma correction in it yet. Lumagen is hoping to get that in by the end of the week. With that you end up with considerably more control over greyscale/gamma then what can be done in the RS-1 itself. Lumagen is initially going with their 11 point correction (you set where you want the 11 points) and will later on be moving to 21 point.

And they don't have test patterns in yet... maybe next week on those. They just make calibration easier esp. when that gets integrated with Calman.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #114 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Glen,

Agreed on the limitations of screen shots.

Do you have the Radiance with the RS-1? If so how is the gamut control working for you?

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #115 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 08:03 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Glen,

Agreed on the limitations of screen shots.

Do you have the Radiance with the RS-1? If so how is the gamut control working for you?

Shawn

Not yet, I feel that having the 11-step grayscale/gamma adjustment is more important than the CMS, and my Lumagen HDQ does that. With the grayscale and gamma accurately calibrated, I am not seeing any objectionable color issues, the picture and flesh tones look quite good. I will make the move to the Radiance, once they get the grayscale function working. At that time, I will also have a new and very accurate Spectroradiometer which will allow me to do an A/B evaluation the RS1, accurate grayscale & gamma vs. accurate colorspace, grayscale and gamma.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
GlenC is offline  
post #116 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 08:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Rob Tomlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Rob,

"in your opinion, where would you say that the Radiance is currently falling short, if anywhere, in terms of calibrating the RS1?"

Per the charts it hasn't pulled green all the way in yet, though what it has done so far has obviously made a big difference. I think Lumagen is hoping to release the version with twice the Gamut correction range today so I will have to see how that changes the my impressions of the picture.

The Radiance doesn't have any of the greyscale/gamma correction in it yet. Lumagen is hoping to get that in by the end of the week. With that you end up with considerably more control over greyscale/gamma then what can be done in the RS-1 itself. Lumagen is initially going with their 11 point correction (you set where you want the 11 points) and will later on be moving to 21 point.

And they don't have test patterns in yet... maybe next week on those. They just make calibration easier esp. when that gets integrated with Calman.

Shawn

Great, thanks Shawn!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rob Tomlin is offline  
post #117 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 12:29 PM
Member
 
mikela8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Shawn,

Have you seen any evidence of color banding given the 8bit RGB output? By the way, I switched over to the beta. Couldn't wait.

Mike
mikela8 is offline  
post #118 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Have you seen any evidence of color banding given the 8bit RGB output?"

Not yet but I haven't watched too much dark stuff that might highlight it. Using the expanded range might highlight it more as well? Jim is saying 4:2:2 output will be in about 2 weeks so as long as the RS-1 can really accept 10bit 4:2:2 this should be a non-issue.

"By the way, I switched over to the beta. Couldn't wait. "

Nice, good luck with it.

Lumagen put out the expanded Gamut correction version today. I think they also adjusted the Gamut correction so that it avoids white crush automatically. And they made it so the greyscale stays constant with the Gamut Controls!

Jim also said that later on implementing the Gennum's region based greyscale correction is on their to do list. That may be useful to help improve shading errors on the RS-1.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #119 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 01:01 PM
Senior Member
 
mikela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Lumagen put out the expanded Gamut correction version today. I think they also adjusted the Gamut correction so that it avoids white crush automatically. And they made it so the greyscale stays constant with the Gamut Controls!"

Fantastic! Before and after pics expected
mikela is online now  
post #120 of 839 Old 10-24-2007, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
OK... just spent a lot of time trying to get the DisplayLT working (driver install problems). Then getting it working in HCFR.

I redid the gamut correction and grey scale using the DisplayLT, HCFG and the GetGray disc. Attached are the results so far.

I should be able to dial in the greyscale better, get rid of the humps, after the Lumagen gains the parametric correction.

In the Lumagen the Gamut Correction #s

Red= Add Green 90, Add Blue 90
Green = Add Red 127, Add Blue 127
Blue = Add Red 110, Add Green 110

The RS-1 is set to Color Temp Middle, Gamma A (looks low), OffSet Red=0, Green -30, Blue 30. I have a ND4 and ISCOII in front of the projector.

Haven't watched it yet but here is how it measures. I need to read more about how to properly see about dialing in the secondaries, I haven't touched them.

Shawn
LL
LL
sfogg is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off