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post #271 of 1682 Old 02-08-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

If you notice on Jason's 15S1 review, the CR measurements were taken at low lamp. The 11S2s are measured in normal lamp. Historically, based at least on what I put together of what Jason and Tom Huffman had measured on Sharp 20ks, 11S1, and 15S1 there appears to be a 10 - 20% CR increase in going to normal lamp over low.

Other than measurement error (or lamp modulation which I'll cover below) I don't see any good reason for CR going up when going to higher lamp modes. It would have to be from something like a different color balance or light coming out of the bulb at a different distribution across angles, because 1.2x/1.2y is exactly the same as x/y and on/off CR is a ratio. White and black should go up by about the same percentage when the lamp is put in a high mode and the DLP chip should block about the same percentage of that light in each case. Put another way, pushing 25% more photons through to the DLP chip shouldn't change the on/off CR unless they come at different angles or have some other difference, other than there just being more of them.

Lamp modulation like the Panasonic projectors support, which is kind of like a dynamic iris) can increase on/off CR in high lamp mode because they go to high lamp for white images and low lamp for "black" images, but when the user selects low lamp, they don't modulate the lamp. However, I don't believe any of those projectors you mentioned has dynamic bulb support like that.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #272 of 1682 Old 02-08-2008, 07:37 PM
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Agreed Darin. I typically take measurements at both low and high to compare. Though they vary somewhat, it is negligable at best and really cannot be attributed to anything other than variations in the measurement technique itself.
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post #273 of 1682 Old 02-08-2008, 08:18 PM
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You guys would know on the CR at lamp settings. I was basing off of data I saw, I thought from Tom Huffmans, and I thought Jason's .. but looking at his 11S1 review there definitely is not a variance there.

Being that the absolute black is the most important thing to me, I will dwell on the blacks first. The blacks on the 11S2 are definitely noticeable. The CR is absolutely there. I even went to a user 2 setting to see if it was just Jasons tweaks and its there at default, too.

Even at iris 3 it looks damn good. Probably has a higher CR, and brightness, than most single chip DLPs in their highest contrast modes in that setting.
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post #274 of 1682 Old 02-08-2008, 08:27 PM
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Darin, I think its up your alley. 8)
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post #275 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

The blacks on the 11S2 are definitely noticeable.

As in noticeably better ? I know video memory is poor but what is your impression of its low APL performance compared to your RS1 ?

Look forward to more feedback.

D
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post #276 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 04:04 AM
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D,

My wife is keeping me "busy." I had a couple of hours to play with it last night, but not much after I had the PJ and 360 setup. She has me with more to do this morning. Putting a couple of things together and some work on her car. 8(

The black level is noticeably better. That memory can not be trusted, but off of that memory it beats its pants off. If you recall I had to use an ND4 with my HD1 .. at that time though I was using a Carada BW as my screen .. now I have had that screen parked and am using a Carada HCG.

The 11S2 is pretty much like Dan Miller advised. A similar image to the 15S1 with a lower black floor. I will not be using an ND2 filter with this projector.

The 11S2 looks absolutely as good in dark and well lit scenes. Well, it looks very good in both .. but it looks really really good (like the 15S1 does) in well lit scenes, WOW. 8)

D, there is NO difference in light output at 4x - 6x speed. There was a slight noise difference that was more apparent in low lamp. In normal lamp its a very faint difference, but its there.

RBE likely doesnt effect me because I noticed no benefit/penalty to 4x - 6x speed. Then again I didnt play with it long. I left it at 6x since the noise didnt really bother me.
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post #277 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 04:20 AM
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Thanks to Jason's very positive review and all around fantastic numbers ( except medium-low brightnes in best mode) Marants 11S2 seems to be hottest projector at the moment. I just hope this kind of performance will be someday soon at mass market prices.
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post #278 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 04:20 AM
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Quote:


What was the minimum throw you used and the size of the screen ?

Yankee, Im sorry I missed/skipped this. 8(

It is a 103" 16:9 sized screen. Im pretty much exactly filling the 16:9 image.. I had a little overlap at its widest/largest image.

I would put it right at 11' to the lens of my 11S2 .. and 12 - 12.5' to the lens of my 15S1. My panamorph lens ends up being a lot closer to my 11s2 lens. I dont have room on the table that the 11S2 is on to move it back but I would say that it will get just a little dimmer there is a 10% dropoff in brightness from min to max throw so a 1' difference will probably result in 10% of that difference dropping off, or 1% of total lumens.

Instead of 400 lumens at min 11 feet .. I would guess 395 lumens at 12' 393 lumens at 12.5'.
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post #279 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 04:37 AM
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D,

The HD1 is also 50% brighter so instead of an 8 fl image on my 400 lumen/12000 CR 11S2 plus .8 gain screen it was probably around 600 lumen/15000 CR on a 1.4 gain screen. Using math, I was looking at 50% brighter image on a 75% more gain screen.

Using math, I was looking at 15k to 1 CR at 24 fl on the HD1 versus 12k to 1 CR at 8 fl on my 11S2 at 12k to 1. With an ND4 the HD1 + 1.4 gain screen would have had an approx 15k to 1 CR at 6 fl. 8) Very similar to the 11S2. + .8 gain screen.

As you can see black level performance on the 11S2 is similar to that of the HD1 plus ND4 <- which is AMAZING. But even more amazing is that the 11S2 simultaneously has the high ANSI CR, Marantz/DLP look of the 15S1. 8)


I would think that I could probably even go to the Carada BW on my 11S2 and it will have acceptable blacks to me, at 16 fl at 12k to 1 CR. 8)


It looks pretty damn good in iris 3 at 16 fl, with approx 5k CR, too 8) If I switched to my Carada BW I could actually attain 5k to 1 CR at 27 foot lamberts if I wanted to, but of course the blacks would absolutely suck to me at that point.
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post #280 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

D,

My wife is keeping me "busy." I had a couple of hours to play with it last night, but not much after I had the PJ and 360 setup. She has me with more to do this morning. Putting a couple of things together and some work on her car. 8(

The black level is noticeably better. That memory can not be trusted, but off of that memory it beats its pants off. If you recall I had to use an ND4 with my HD1 .. at that time though I was using a Carada BW as my screen .. now I have had that screen parked and am using a Carada HCG.

The 11S2 is pretty much like Dan Miller advised. A similar image to the 15S1 with a lower black floor. I will not be using an ND2 filter with this projector.

The 11S2 looks absolutely as good in dark and well lit scenes. Well, it looks very good in both .. but it looks really really good (like the 15S1 does) in well lit scenes, WOW. 8)

D, there is NO difference in light output at 4x - 6x speed. There was a slight noise difference that was more apparent in low lamp. In normal lamp its a very faint difference, but its there.

RBE likely doesnt effect me because I noticed no benefit/penalty to 4x - 6x speed. Then again I didnt play with it long. I left it at 6x since the noise didnt really bother me.

Mike

Thanks for the feedback. Look forward to more once you have chance.

There's a UK "power buy" just been posted on the UK forum for 11S1. The price is just over half the previous MSRP (£10k). I think the UK MSRP has also been dropped to £7.5k and I hope this will be the price point for the 11S2 if it ever gets launched here

D
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post #281 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 05:41 AM
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Avi,

I hope to be done with the honey dos quickly so I can get back to viewing/comparing but Ive got a LOT to do. 2 of my kids are sleeping over at friends houses so it would be an ideal time to get some playing done.

I hope you get your hands on a 11S2 and 15S1 soon. Youll fall in love with either, just like you did with the image on your HT380. Except I hope you wont have any doubts even after close inspection - these two units are built like tanks and ride like a luxury car should.

8)
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post #282 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Jason... I need to know...


When watching a 2:35 movie...


With a normal 1:78 Screen...


How black are the black bars...

Are they distracting in any regards?

If I purchase an 11S2 I will have no money for the Carada Masking system.

If you want the black bars to disappear, the ONLY thing that can do that (outside of a masking system) is a black room. The black level of the projector is meaningless if the room is reflecting back any of the light from the illuminated portion of the screen.

In my theater (and I'm sure Darin's amongst others), the VP-12S4 could make the black bars blend right into the frame of the screen. The 11 and 15 make it a walk in the park. But the ceilings and walls are so dark that the room feels dark with all of the lights on.

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post #283 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 07:24 AM
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JediMaster PMed me about the black bars being noticeable, too, SOWK and what I told him was that projecting a 2.35 image on a 16:9 panel on my 2.35 screen, even in the blackest of images or a pure black field, the 2.35 bars are completely indestinguishable from the unprojected on parts of my screen.

The bars on top and side of my screen are all equally black when in iris 1 on the 11S2. Do you need masking then? I think, "NO." 8)
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post #284 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNic2 View Post

Thanks to Jason's very positive review and all around fantastic numbers ( except medium-low brightnes in best mode) Marants 11S2 seems to be hottest projector at the moment. I just hope this kind of performance will be someday soon at mass market prices.

If recent history is any indicator (i.e., the 11S1 and 15S1 history), it seems reasonable to expect a 15S2 pj in less than a year, which would have most of the performance of the 11S2 (and maybe even brighter), but not put together with hand-selected components, and perhaps at ~ half the price of the 11S2, putting it in the ballpark of pj's like the RS2, i.e., between 5 and 10K.
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post #285 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 09:53 AM
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When we talk of "hand selected components", what exactly does that mean? In my field we do sort through items for matching purposes but not at the cost of 40-50% price increase! What's wrong with the components anyway? Then this begs the question, what happens with the non-selected units...

"Unless you continually work, evolve and innovate, you'll learn a quick and painful lesson from someone who has"
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post #286 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 10:31 AM
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Id say 1.5 years for 15S2. The 11S1 has been out for about 2 years and the 15S1 hit US streets in October. Im sure Marantz wont be cannibalizing its 11S2 sales with a cheaper 11S2 anytime soon, specially not when the 11S2 seems to be the best PJ anywhere near its pricepoint and above.

Look at the Sharp 20k, its been out there forever with its DC3 chip .. wouldnt surprise me at all if they keep the 15s at DC3 to set them apart.
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post #287 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Id say 1.5 years for 15S2. The 11S1 has been out for about 2 years and the 15S1 hit US streets in October. Im sure Marantz wont be cannibalizing its 11S2 sales with a cheaper 11S2 anytime soon, specially not when the 11S2 seems to be the best PJ anywhere near its pricepoint and above.

Look at the Sharp 20k, its been out there forever with its DC3 chip .. wouldnt surprise me at all if they keep the 15s at DC3 to set them apart.

I'd bet you are correct.

Unless some outside competitive force comes into play (e.g. everyone else goes DC4, etc.), I can't see Marantz making hasty changes.

If it ain't broke...

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post #288 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 12:03 PM
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Masking is the only real way to get truely rid of the black bars...
But in my testing of this unit, I found that it did extremely well at making those bars as dark as possible. So, if you have spare money lying around (don't we all?), then go with a masking. If not, I would not sweat it.
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post #289 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Id say 1.5 years for 15S2. The 11S1 has been out for about 2 years and the 15S1 hit US streets in October. Im sure Marantz wont be cannibalizing its 11S2 sales with a cheaper 11S2 anytime soon, specially not when the 11S2 seems to be the best PJ anywhere near its pricepoint and above.

Ah, I didn't realized that the 11S1 had been out so long. (I'm only lately begun to watch the Marantz products.) So your scenario does sound more likely.
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post #290 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 01:07 PM
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Catdaddy, how do you like your new 11S1 so far? How is it better compared to the 15S1? Based on its specs, I would assume that the 11S1 will have darker blacks and a bit dimmer light output. How's the color (saturation and accuracy)?
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post #291 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 01:25 PM
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Sorry Bill, that last post didnt come out as I intended. I certainly am just speculating as well. 8) I read my hastily written post (wife was nearby) and it seems as if it was written by someone with some inside knowledge and it certainly wasnt. Nothing "sure" about my speculation, either.

Your guess is as good as mine. 8)

Francis, I really havent had much time with it since I have gotten it. I did spend a couple of hours with it after I brought it up and set it up .. but Ive not spent much time since.

Initial impressions are that the image looks very similar. Definitely shares that same Marantz/DLP look that we love from the 15S1. The blacks are a plus on the 11S2. This unit also actually measured brighter than my 15S1.

I am only connected via component with my X360 HD as all of my cables to my devices go through the roof to the 15S1 still so I have been using different color adjustments from what Jason calibrated. I havent had enough time to toy with the colors too much yet so at this point I am actually preferring the colors of my 15S1, although I expect that when its all said and done these will be pretty much the same.

The thing I am most excited about it is that I will be able to go without an ND filter and enjoy the blacks and depth/pop/3Dness that I have grown accustommed to with a fairly bright (for me) image.

I will be heading back up again for a couple of hours worth of toying/comparisons. 8)
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post #292 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

D,


As you can see black level performance on the 11S2 is similar to that of the HD1 plus ND4 <- which is AMAZING. But even more amazing is that the 11S2 simultaneously has the high ANSI CR, Marantz/DLP look of the 15S1. 8)


I would think that I could probably even go to the Carada BW on my 11S2 and it will have acceptable blacks to me, at 16 fl at 12k to 1 CR. 8)


.

I have the RS2, haven't calibrated it yet, and coming from a sony g70, I love the black level on this baby and picture overall, but for the increase in price up to the 11s2, if I can get same black level with the improved ansi contrast then I'm in. I currently have a 19ft throw onto a scope carada BW 120x51 with the panamorph 380 on a sled in a total bat cave room.
Do you think I'd be disappointed in the 11s2 black level in this set up?
joe
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post #293 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 05:58 PM
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Well I'm pretty sure that the 11s2 might come close to the RS1 black level, but not the RS2. But you do get that sweet ANSI/DLP thing. Plus to get that RS1 equivalent contrast, you are going to have to have that iris way down and you may be wanting with that size of screen. On the other hand, with that size of screen with the dimmer image, the black level will drop too a bit.

I am not an expert though.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #294 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 07:42 PM
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Joe,

I dont think you will be disppointed. 8)

Thats about my screen size, so you should be getting about 12 - 15 fl on that screen with a Carada BW at 12,000 to 1 CR. The black level will be better than the RS1s, because it is dimmer .. and youll get that pristine looking out the window look that is on the 15S1 to boot.

Jason guestimated about 2/3 CR in iris 2 so that will get you around 8k on off with more lumens and then if you really need it bright .. you can get it up to 800 lumens.

I havent seen the RS2 but Im pretty sure its a damn good projector. Personally, I like the Marantz/DLP look of the 15S1 so much I dont believe I would have preferred the RS2 to the 15S1, let alone the 11S2.
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post #295 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Joe,

I dont think you will be disppointed. 8)

Thats about my screen size, so you should be getting about 12 - 15 fl on that screen with a Carada BW at 12,000 to 1 CR. The black level will be better than the RS1s, because it is dimmer .. and youll get that pristine looking out the window look that is on the 15S1 to boot.

Jason guestimated about 2/3 CR in iris 2 so that will get you around 8k on off with more lumens and then if you really need it bright .. you can get it up to 800 lumens.

I havent seen the RS2 but Im pretty sure its a damn good projector. Personally, I like the Marantz/DLP look of the 15S1 so much I dont believe I would have preferred the RS2 to the 15S1, let alone the 11S2.

Mike, Sorry I'm not visiting Austin any time soon--it would be great to see your 11S2 in action. Would be even better to see it side-by-side with a RS2.
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post #296 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 09:36 PM
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Yeah it'd be really nice to see the RS1 and this compared side by side. I'd guess we'd get:

sharpness- 11s2

on/off- RS2

ansi cr- 11S2

brightness- hmm, I'd guess the RS2 is slightly brighter but I would guess they'd be a wash

colours- both are oversaturated but it seems the rs2 is worse in that regard so I'm going to guess the 11S2 would win here

gamma- based on what Greg has said the RS2 I'd guess would win here unless the 11S2 has a sweet user gamma setup.

greyscale tracking- again, based on what has been posted it seems the RS2 wins here

I for one am down to these two pjs as my next upgrade and I am leaning towards the 11S2 for the added sharpness. I am fine with the on/off of my rS1 so if I can get the same performance there and get better sharpness and ansi cr then hey, that is right up my alley.

ROB
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post #297 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 09:52 PM
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Sorry I could not get to Austin either, I decided to get the 11S2, doing it local,
its the install and setup that I need, I have to left hands for that stuff.

The final decision came down to "latest technology" , I sold some sports stuff and got more then I thought so I put it to good use.

I saw the RS1 and 15S1 at a HT in Dallas and thought the 15 was much better then then RS1, I was surprise to read this thread on much they rave about the RS1.
I thought the black level of the 15 was (no pun intended) was a night and day difference. Could have been the setup.

I am teaming it with a Firehawk g3 114" .

BTW , what's with the : 8) symbol you guys use ???

Greg
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post #298 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee14 View Post

BTW , what's with the : 8) symbol you guys use ???

Greg

It's a 'poor man's' smiley face, sideways.
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post #299 of 1682 Old 02-09-2008, 10:38 PM
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You gotta be kidding !!!!

First of all anyone on this thread like me to say "poor man" would probably fall on a lot of deaf ears out there.

I am so far behind the times, i just found out from my 12 year old GRANDSON what LOL means, when I was growing up it was lots of luck !!!

Someone needs to write a book on all the new text messaging lingo,
he then for sure could not use the 8) if it did well.

I am sure that there is one out there already which will prove just how far behind I really am.

I should have everything installed by the 21st, I'll give my 12th grade mentality opinion without the tech stuff,
I tried that once on the lexicon forum and got insulted by about 4 readers,
So i will stick to sayings like "night and day" and its really avery good picture.

Counting the days, greg
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post #300 of 1682 Old 02-10-2008, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

Yeah it'd be really nice to see the RS1 and this compared side by side. I'd guess we'd get:

sharpness- 11s2

on/off- RS2

ansi cr- 11S2

brightness- hmm, I'd guess the RS2 is slightly brighter but I would guess they'd be a wash

colours- both are oversaturated but it seems the rs2 is worse in that regard so I'm going to guess the 11S2 would win here

gamma- based on what Greg has said the RS2 I'd guess would win here unless the 11S2 has a sweet user gamma setup.

greyscale tracking- again, based on what has been posted it seems the RS2 wins here

I for one am down to these two pjs as my next upgrade and I am leaning towards the 11S2 for the added sharpness. I am fine with the on/off of my rS1 so if I can get the same performance there and get better sharpness and ansi cr then hey, that is right up my alley.

I recently viewed a side by side with a new HD1(RS1) and an older 11S1. We watched various HD material (low apl/high apl) and observed the difference by blocking light from each unit. This wasn't as objective test just and neither machine was full calibrated. The 11S1 wasn't mounted in a ideal position (max shift). We obsereved -

1) In higher APL scenes the 11S1 was noticeably more dimmensional (3D) and the HD1 exihibited a red edge on some dark objects with bright backgrounds (I aways assumed this was source but it wasn't shown on the 11S1??). With some bright scenes the HD1 looked less dymanic with the perception that black wasn't as black.

2) In lower APL scenes the HD1 had the edge. The difference wasn't massive and we had to look but the advantage was with the JVC.

3) The 11S1 had a cripser image and this was more noticeable seen side by side. In isloation the HD1 look pretty sharp but side by side there's a noticeable difference.

4) The colors looked more natural but some of this may be addressed with setting.

Both are fine PJ's.

D
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