Marantz VP-11S2 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 07:04 PM
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Catdaddy, Congrats on your new PJ. Why did you upgrade when you were already happy with the 15S1? Based on your earlier posts, it looks like a darker black level is the biggest noticeable improvement on the 11S2. How's the fan noise btw?
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post #362 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 07:32 PM
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He couldn't resist. Seriously, it is a noticeable amount better than the 15S1 (which in and of itself is quite good). Granted it is a good amount more money as well...
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post #363 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:02 PM
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Initially I wasnt really sure about upgrading, Francis. I wasnt sure how much more I would like it .. but when Jason got a chance to see it .. and reported the on/off contrast .. like he said, I really couldnt resist.

I am a black level fiend. I liked the HD1 with an ND4 and the 15S1 with an ND2 .. because of its combination of brightness and contrast ratio the 11S2 gives me absolute blacks as good as those other two machines without the ND filters.

I actually didnt commit to selling the 15S1 until Jason assured me it was noticeably more black. If Jason would have told me it was just a little more black .. I would still have my 15S1.

I even put David off a few days, before I committed to sell to him .. because I wasnt sure I wanted to up 4-5k more for a small CR improvement. Thankfully it wasnt a small CR improvement. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #364 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:07 PM
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I wouldn't steer you wrong, now would I?
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post #365 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:11 PM
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Nope. 8) Thank you, thank you, thank you. 8)

When I say I wasnt sure how much more I would like it .. its because I loved the 15S1s image so much. The 11S2 and 15S1 do put out very similar images .. if you saw them separately you would think they were the same projector.

Just having been so used to the brightness/blacks of the 15S1 I can definitely tell the difference in the images. I am really sensitive to the blacks .. and am very hard to satisfy in that regard.

Amazingly, Im satisfied (without an ND filter.) 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #366 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:13 PM
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Good...Marantz just shipped me a new 13S4 with 100000:1 contrast...want that one too? Kidding!
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post #367 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:14 PM
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I hope thats 2 years away .. because I definitely would have to work that around my wife .. of course now I could say this one was defective and that was the replacement unit. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #368 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:19 PM
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Francis, fan noise is the same. 8) Sounds the same in 4x 5x or 6x speed. The difference is audible but its practically insignificant.

I watch it at 6x speed to maximize PQ, of course. Even if it was much louder, PQ first. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #369 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:27 PM
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You guys need to head up to Rochester when Jason and Joel do the PJ shootout. I bet millerwill is probably game to go .. he has been waiting on the AVS event and this demo sounds like it will have all the best projectors there.

Even in a bright room, the 11S2 can be upped to iris 3 and still have the same, or better, brightness and CR than most of the brightest single chippers. With the, best of the best, top of the line Marantz lenses and DC4 chips you guys wont ever have to worry about CA or panel uniformity issues. 8)

Best of all, its all backed by Jason Turk and Dan Miller, personally. 8) How can you go wrong?

Plus if the blacks are good enough on the 15S1 for you, then youll be happy with the Marantz/DLP look and quality and save about $4 - $5k by taking the quality image of that projector. You really cant go wrong with either of these. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #370 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:34 PM
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Thanks for the kind words!
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post #371 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 08:45 PM
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Youve earned it. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #372 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 09:27 PM
 
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This projector has me very interested. I have an RS1 and have never been totally happy with it. I have the bright corners and the have always thought the higher APL scenes looked flat. I love the black level of the RS1 and don't want to go backwards in this area. I've been waiting for a DLP that can compete in black level with the JVC and it looks like the Marantz can do this.

I haven't seen anyone mention anything about light spill or halo around the image. I know you can mask it out, but this is something that has always bothered me on every projector I've had. Is there any with the Marantz?
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post #373 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 09:59 PM
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No light spill... completely sealed optics.

This projector definitely sounds right up your alley, Randall. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #374 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Initially I wasnt really sure about upgrading, Francis. I wasnt sure how much more I would like it .. but when Jason got a chance to see it .. and reported the on/off contrast .. like he said, I really couldnt resist.

I am a black level fiend. I liked the HD1 with an ND4 and the 15S1 with an ND2 .. because of its combination of brightness and contrast ratio the 11S2 gives me absolute blacks as good as those other two machines without the ND filters.

I actually didnt commit to selling the 15S1 until Jason assured me it was noticeably more black. If Jason would have told me it was just a little more black .. I would still have my 15S1.

I even put David off a few days, before I committed to sell to him .. because I wasnt sure I wanted to up 4-5k more for a small CR improvement. Thankfully it wasnt a small CR improvement. 8)

Mike, great to hear how pleased you are with the 11S2! And I agree with your description of the 11S2 vs 15S1; when I saw both of them at the CES, but in different rooms (about 100 ft away), my feeling was that they were very comparable (and extremely nice). I'm sure it takes the side by side comparison that you were able to do to really see the diff.

Yes, it's certainly tempting to think about this pj, but I just watched a BR on my RS1 tonight, and it is just so nice; I'm really going to have to wait another year before replacing it! Re your HD1 (aka RS1), I presume that the blacks on it are still better than those of the 11S2, right? But the higher ANSI CR of the Marantz makes them seem as good? Is this correct? My impression was that the o/f of the 11S2 was ~12000:1, incredible for a dlp, but still not quite up to even the RS1, not to speak of the RS2. Correct me here as appropriate!
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post #375 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 10:39 PM
 
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I can't speak for all RS1s, but when I measured
mine, the on/off was only around 9600:1. I'm sure it would be a bit better at max throw(this was measured at a medium throw), but I think there is probably quite a bit of variance in on/off for the RS1s. While it has been a good projector, I have never been impressed with the build quality.

Thanks for the info Catdaddy.
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post #376 of 1665 Old 02-13-2008, 10:51 PM
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The blacks to my memory are the same, Bill.

Im watching the 11S2 at 30 contrast, versus the 19 contrast that Jason measured the 12k:1 with .. and if you remember the dramatic difference in brightness (and likely CR) that made when we measured it .. Im probably at 410 420 lumens with 11500 ish (since I am closer to short throw) CR.

Keep in mind too, that with the HD1 .. I used an ND4. I guess to about 5 to 6 fl at 15k to 1 versus 8 fl at 13k to 1, with my 11S2. Pretty close absolute blacks. Not close in which image is preferrable to me, though.

The 15S1, desite not being anywhere near the vicinity of blacks as the HD1 still put out a similar absolute black with the ND2 filter albeit at 3 fl.

I wouldnt say that the ANSI CR/DLP look made the blacks look as black despite the lower CR, but it makes all the images look more 3Dish. Despite not being as black (or broght) as the HD1 I did prefer the images on the 15S1 in low APL scenes, even with the lower light output.

You remember how good it looked, despite it lacking punch for your tastes. Now with the 11S2 I can have those absolute blacks with a lot more punch .. probably even likeable for your blinding (to me) taste. 8)

As far as the difference in blacks with the RS2, I am sure they would be noticeable to me but the differences would only be in terms of image brightness because in the end I have to get that black down to an acceptable level of absolute black to me anyways. The 11S2 already has it (acceptable level of black)mand since the RS2 appears to be not much brigher than the 11S2 it makes sense to me that those absolute blacks would be even darker (but since I dont need the ND2 anymore forthe 11S2 .. probably at the point of diminising returns.)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #377 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I presume that the blacks on it are still better than those of the 11S2, right? But the higher ANSI CR of the Marantz makes them seem as good? Is this correct? My impression was that the o/f of the 11S2 was ~12000:1, incredible for a dlp, but still not quite up to even the RS1, not to speak of the RS2. Correct me here as appropriate!

I will correct you...

First off the RS1 is brighter. So the peak White level should be higher.

EVERYONE please remember ON/OFF CONTRAST numbers do "not" tell you the absolute black level of a projector...

It is the ratio between the darkest black and lightest white.

You could have a 50,000:1 Native projector that has worse blacks then the RS1 if it was putting out 1500 lumens


Millerwill, if you have the throw distance for the Marantz and the means ($$$). Then this is a projector that you could live with for 5+ years.

I am probably way more picky about things then probably even Catdaddy and 99% of the people on this forum (AKA OCD). And this is the first projector "EVER" that I can see no flaws with. Except Throw distance and the previously mentioned $$$.
But even if it were cheaper you wouldn't have hand picked lenses/dmd/6X color wheel/etc.

I mentioned this before but the Marantz is in a different class all together then the RS1/2.

Marantz was nice enough to bring it down to a price level were a small number of us looking for close to perfection can now somehow obtain it.

I have been saving now for about 5 months for a high-end DLP, I was only looking to spend $5000.00 max. But at the Time the Marantz VP-15S1/ Sim2 D80 had me thinking possiblay $7000.

But I was leterally causing myself to go crazy about what to buy, as every projector $7000.00 and under all have their flaws. Benq W10000 (Color space issues/Black level/throw) Sharp 20K (noise/rbe/throw) Marantz VP-15S1 (Price/black level) Sim2 D80 (Ugly/no centered lens/looks cheap)

There are alot more but just to name a few...

Then the "Halo" Marantz VP-11S2 came out...

Amazing Blacks
6X Color Wheel (I'm sensitive to RBE - So this put me over the edge.)
Hand Picked Optics
DarkChip 4
Quiet (compaired to the Sharp xv-z20000 - I hope - JASON???)
Bright
Looks beautiful
Shorter throw
HDMI 1.3 (yeah I know may never come about)

And these are just the benifits over the other DLP'S

My list of advantages over the LCD/LCOS market would be way larger.


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post #378 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I will correct you...
.
.
.

It is the differences between the darkest black and lightest white.


On/Off contrast ratio is NOT the difference(-) whereas it is the ratio(/).

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #379 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 06:38 AM
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lol... better now?


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post #380 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 07:58 AM
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The black levels on the Marantz are on par with the RS1. Now, admittedly I have only seen the one 11S2 and I have seen tons of RS1's. The RS1's contrasts varied a good amount, but average I found them in the 12-14k:1 range. As SOWK said, contrast doesn't tell you what the black levels are. The RS1 is a brighter projector inherently (at least compared to IRIS 1 on the Marantz), but that just tells us how good the 11S2 is. Remember I got about 350 lumens at Iris 1, but still had near 12000:1 contrast. That tells you the level of blacks it achieved.
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post #381 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 08:20 AM
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Cat, SOWK: Thanks for the feedback; 11S2 sounds like a very impressive product.

SOWK: the only think I can think that it lacks is an internal CMS so that one could dial in the standard colors (if one wanted to), and also perhaps some more lumens. Jason's comment above that it produces ~350 lumens with CR 12000:1 (Iris 1) is only a little more than half of what the RS1 produces with the same (or higher) CR. (And yes, I understand that more lumens--i.e., brighter whites--means a higher black level if the CR remains the same.)
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post #382 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 08:25 AM
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Again, though, depends on the RS1. Most the RS1's I tested were in the 12-14k:1 range...on par with the Marantz. Yes the RS1 is brighter at that level, but that actually means the black levels are higher on the RS1 than the Marantz.

Of course I have had RS1's with less than 10000:1 as well, and I haven't tested a ton of the 11S2's yet...
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post #383 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Cat, SOWK: Thanks for the feedback; 11S2 sounds like a very impressive product.

SOWK: the only think I can think that it lacks is an internal CMS so that one could dial in the standard colors (if one wanted to), and also perhaps some more lumens. Jason's comment above that it produces ~350 lumens with CR 12000:1 (Iris 1) is only a little more than half of what the RS1 produces with the same (or higher) CR. (And yes, I understand that more lumens--i.e., brighter whites--means a higher black level if the CR remains the same.)

Very good points. Both can still be corrected though.

CMS can be done thorugh an External VP.
Brighter Image with a higher Gain Screen.

Jason said he was going to hand pick through all the units and get me one that has 20,000:1. j/k - well not really


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post #384 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 08:54 AM
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Hey Bill,

The 12000 CR number at 350 lumens is at its longest throw, best CR position but also dimmest on entire throw range. In my position, on the short end of the throw I of course have ~10% more lumens and 10% less CR. ~400 lumens, 10500 CR.

When you factor in the increase in contrast setting from 19 to 30, thats another 10% brightness difference .. based on what you and I measured .. but lets conservatively call it a 5% increase .. ~420 lumens, 11000 CR.

That should put it at about 2/3 of the RS1 in brightness with 14.5 fl on a 128" 2.35 1.4 gain BW screen, and at 29 fl on a HP like you have. 8) Which I dont know if you would use an ND2 with it, or not, but it certainly is ample brightness for even large screens like yours and mine.

Plus, you can shift it into iris 2 where its even closer in brightness performance to the RS1 and to iris 3 where it will perform brighter than an HT380 with arguably even better CR when needed.

My setup, still in progress:


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post #385 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Very good points. Both can still be corrected though.

CMS can be done thorugh an External VP.
Brighter Image with a higher Gain Screen.

Also very good points, though the Radiance is another 4K (but it's only money, right?)
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post #386 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Hey Bill,

The 12000 CR number at 350 lumens is at its longest throw, best CR position but also dimmest on entire throw range. In my position, on the short end of the throw I of course have ~10% more lumens and 10% less CR. ~400 lumens, 10500 CR.

When you factor in the increase in contrast setting from 19 to 30, thats another 10% brightness difference .. based on what you and I measured .. but lets conservatively call it a 5% increase .. ~420 lumens, 11000 CR.

That should put it at about 2/3 of the RS1 in brightness with 14.5 fl on a 128" 2.35 1.4 gain BW screen, and at 29 fl on a HP like you have. 8) Which I dont know if you would use an ND2 with it, or not, but it certainly is ample brightness for even large screens like yours and mine.

Plus, you can shift it into iris 2 where its even closer in brightness performance to the RS1 and to iris 3 where it will perform brighter than an HT380 with arguably even better CR when needed.

Thanks for filling out this info, Mike. Yes, it certainly sounds like the 11S2 would work just fine for me; but I'm REALLY telling myself that I should live with my RS1 for at least 2 yrs!
By then the 11S3, or whatever, may have the CR of the RS2 and be as bright.
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post #387 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 09:23 AM
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Thats not a bad idea, too, Bill. I certainly havent been able to keep a projector for that long but youve gone this far. If the picture on your RS1 still makes your heart flutter I think you are set. 8)

My setup, still in progress:


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post #388 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Quiet (compaired to the Sharp xv-z20000 - I hope - JASON???)

The noise of the Sharp never bothered me. But the Marantz VP15 didn't seem to be quieter. In fact the color wheel were maybe a bit more distracting than the Sharp one's.

Jason can you comment?


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post #389 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Thanks for filling out this info, Mike. Yes, it certainly sounds like the 11S2 would work just fine for me; but I'm REALLY telling myself that I should live with my RS1 for at least 2 yrs!
By then the 11S3, or whatever, may have the CR of the RS2 and be as bright.

Hey, hey...enough of that silly talk...if my wife sees that response it is going to make it very difficult to get her to agree to going to Jason's to see the 11s2 and likely purchasing it after just having the RS2 for a couple of months which both of us like A LOT!!! The excuse, but, honey, we're going to like this A LOT BETTER, is pretty weak with my wife
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post #390 of 1665 Old 02-14-2008, 10:27 AM
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I am completely tapping into my memory, but I would say that the Marantz and Sharp are similar noise, perhaps the Sharp is a tad louder. Again, going purely by memory.

Better answer...the Marantz is one of the quieter DLP's I have come across.
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