Marantz VP-11S2 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:08 PM
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Yeah, Bill .. its about 400 lumens in iris 1 in my setup .. 800 in iris 3 .. so your RS1 would be in between them probably at about 600.

The 14 fl in iris 1 is using my 1.4 gain screen, not my .8, and the 28 fl is doubling the brightness from iris 1 on that same screen.

Jason guestimated 8000:1 CR at iris 2. There is a huge falloff from iris 1 to iris 2 on these dual iris machines, where its almost made iris 2 useless for the brightness gain to me.
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post #542 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:09 PM
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I have another here I am doing this weekend so I'll report back on more specific measurements...
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post #543 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:28 PM
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Woohoo! Cant wait to get another 11S2s measurements. I cant wait to see what you find out, Jason. 8)
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post #544 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Yeah, Bill .. its about 400 lumens in iris 1 in my setup .. 800 in iris 3 .. so your RS1 would be in between them probably at about 600.

The 14 fl in iris 1 is using my 1.4 gain screen, not my .8, and the 28 fl is doubling the brightness from iris 1 on that same screen.

Jason guestimated 8000:1 CR at iris 2. There is a huge falloff from iris 1 to iris 2 on these dual iris machines, where its almost made iris 2 useless for the brightness gain to me.

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Yes, my RS1 is about 600 lumens (low lamp mode, new lamp), and with a O/F CR of what, 10 to 15K:1? (I can't measure this reliably). I would hate to give up a factor of 2 in O/F CR, now that I've gotten used to it, and of course I do like a bright, punchy pic. (At they say, brightness is addictive.) I would clearly need to look at the RS2 and 11S2 to see how they compare to my eyes. OR, maybe by CEDIA, we will have the best of both of these, at an affordable price (whatever that is).
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post #545 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:37 PM
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You dont have to give up that CR, Bill. Arent you using an ND2 right now with your HP?

You might have to replace it a little bit sooner, but you should start off 50% brighter with the 11S2 than the RS1 with ND and it still has a TON of punch. Even without the ND2 you would be looking at 2/3 the brightness with the 11S2.

I dont think there is anything wrong with waiting, though, if that is what you decide to do .. but I think youll be passing up on a HUGE upgrade in PQ til then. You should definitely at least take a look at it at Jason's place. 8)
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post #546 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

You dont have to give up that CR, Bill. Arent you using an ND2 right now with your HP?

You might have to replace it a little bit sooner, but you should start off 50% brighter with the 11S2 than the RS1 with ND and it still has a TON of punch. Even without the ND2 you would be looking at 2/3 the brightness with the 11S2.

I dont think there is anything wrong with waiting, though, if that is what you decide to do .. but I think youll be passing up on a HUGE upgrade in PQ til then. You should definitely at least take a look at it at Jason's place. 8)

I have a ND2 filter and tried it out, but I find it to make the pic too dingy.

You are certainly right that improvements are happening so rapidly that one could get a new pj each year now and it would be a significant enhancement. But I guess I just remember my Dad's frugality too much (he grew up in the Depression of the '30's) to do this every year, even if I can well afford it. I think I'll have to see what CEDIA brings and perhaps get something that is announced there, about a year from now. (But the 11S2 does sound SWEET!)
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post #547 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:51 PM
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Sounds good, Bill.

It definitely is sweet. 8)
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post #548 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 08:55 PM
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Every year? Its more like every two months now.

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post #549 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 09:05 PM
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How quiet is this projector?
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post #550 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

How quiet is this projector?

Yes, this would be imp for me, for it would be only ~ 2 ft from my ears. My RS1 is no problem (in low lamp mode), but I wouldn't want anything much louder.
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post #551 of 1662 Old 02-21-2008, 11:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Every year? Its more like every two months now.

I think things are slowing down. At least in the $5K to 15K range. There are 2 or 3 year old projectors now with outstanding pictures that can hold their own against the newer projectors. If you don't sit too close the C3X would probably hold its own against most of the newer stuff.

Seems like we a just fine tuning to get the last bit of performance from the current technology. From all I've read the DC4 is only a small improvement over the DC3 but Marantz has almost doubled any previous on/off CR from the DC3.

I mean how much better of a picture can we get from a single chip DLP? We can get blacker blacks and fine tune the color a little more make it brighter etc., but these will only be marginal improvements to most.

The other areas for improvement involves changes in the light source to laser or possibly led, but I've been hearing talk about this for years now. Will we have it next year? If we do will it be below $15K? Will the picture be a lot better or just longer lamp life?

What I'm getting at is that I think I could be happy with a projector like the Marantz or one of the high end Sims for a long time, maybe 3 years even. I believe now is a good time to upgrade.
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post #552 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 02:10 AM
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How is the CR with the lens cap on?
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post #553 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 04:51 AM
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Things are slowing down, Prices are not. Prices are going down. Soon there will be very little in the above $10,000.00 Market (If there isn't already)

With some 1080P DLPs / Lcos / LCD under $3000.00 there is a much smaller market for high cost projectors.

Their are very few like me that are willing to spend thousands more for "perfection".

I don't see how I would upgrade from the Marantz VP-11S2 in less then 5 years.

I don't care about laser Tech, or even higher contrast ratio's at this point.

Yes, 1,000,000:1 Contrast is coming "soon" But it doesn't really offer that much better picture then 15,000:1.

I have seen the Sony Oled 11" and was impressed but nothing that is WOW, this blows away everything on the market.

TVs are just getting thinner and lighter / bigger.

Front projectors are just getting cheaper.

The Sharp 12K MK2 can hold its own with all the 1080P projectors right now if you have the right view distance / screen size.

The only real time to upgrade from the Marantz at this point is...

If you have an enormous screen (145" - plus for light output purposes only)

or

4K res projectors (but only when there is 4K material)

or

3D Projectors



Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I think things are slowing down. At least in the $5K to 15K range. There are 2 or 3 year old projectors now with outstanding pictures that can hold their own against the newer projectors. If you don't sit too close the C3X would probably hold its own against most of the newer stuff.

Seems like we a just fine tuning to get the last bit of performance from the current technology. From all I've read the DC4 is only a small improvement over the DC3 but Marantz has almost doubled any previous on/off CR from the DC3.

I mean how much better of a picture can we get from a single chip DLP? We can get blacker blacks and fine tune the color a little more make it brighter etc., but these will only be marginal improvements to most.

The other areas for improvement involves changes in the light source to laser or possibly led, but I've been hearing talk about this for years now. Will we have it next year? If we do will it be below $15K? Will the picture be a lot better or just longer lamp life?

What I'm getting at is that I think I could be happy with a projector like the Marantz or one of the high end Sims for a long time, maybe 3 years even. I believe now is a good time to upgrade.

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post #554 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post


You are certainly right that improvements are happening so rapidly that one could get a new pj each year now and it would be a significant enhancement. But I guess I just remember my Dad's frugality too much (he grew up in the Depression of the '30's) to do this every year, even if I can well afford it. I think I'll have to see what CEDIA brings and perhaps get something that is announced there, about a year from now. (But the 11S2 does sound SWEET!)

I hear you on that. Here it is, a year after I got my Rs1 and I am wanting to upgrade it despite the fact a year ago I said I wouldn't have any need/desire to upgrade from it for 2-3 years.

My problem is I really want to stop this upgrading crap yet I know I won't stop it until there is that pj that hits all the things I want. What I am most likely going to do is get the RS2 because I just can't justify getting the 11S2 when I KNOW I'll most likely upgrade from it in 1-2 years since despite how great it may be, it still has a lower on/off CR than I want...so the way I see it, it makes sense for me to get the RS2 and save the few k since again, I'll be upgrading in 09 or 2010 and it is a lesser financial hit to take and will most likely be an easier pj to sell because of it being less in price. I know some who haven't even seen the RS2 feel it won't really be a decent upgrade from the RS1 but based on Greg and some others it sure sounds like it offers enough of an improvement to be worth it and that has me very interested in it.

The logical thing for me to do would be to wait until Cedia and see what the next batch of projectors will bring (especially since I am happy with my RS1) but I fully grasp I have an issue with upgraditis and like to have things now rather than waiting. Man I hate this hobby.

ROB
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post #555 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 04:01 PM
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At Cedia we will see the DC5 chip and it will be a significant improvement over the DC3 unlike the minimal improvement of the DC4. That 's the industry rumor. Who knows if it will be the truth?

On/off CR of 35K is a lot better than a few years ago but don't kid yourself there is quite a ways to go yet. Not having the correct viewing environment however would negate appreciating the increase.

TI has a lot do do with what DLPS cost and my guess is that they charge a lot more for DC4 chips to be used in a three chipper than the do for a single chipper DLP which I suspect is quite a bit more than for a DC3 single chipper.

For good custom installers, the dollar valuer of high end projector sales swamps the under $5K segment. They over $5K market is very healthy.

Cedia is almost exactly 6 months away. We won't see many new models before that. But Planar is rolling out some stuff.

We will see a 3 chip DLP for $10K in September. Yes, or something close to that, with the lower DC3 chip and a lens of $5k projector quality. From who? Some present DLP FP manufacturer but I haven't a clue who. Supposedly some industry people have seen it or probably have been told under nondisclosure agreements. Thats what was published in WSR by an installer under a nondisclosure is his installer column.

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post #556 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 05:23 PM
 
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Sounds like some good stuff in the works. How about the Pioneer Plasma with better blacks than a CRT?
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post #557 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 05:30 PM
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Couple of years off at least. BTW Memphis has 5 more games before its league tourney. Last regular season game is March 8, home against UAB which it only beat by 1 point when at UAB.

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post #558 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

At Cedia we will see the DC5 chip and it will be a significant improvement over the DC3 unlike the minimal improvement of the DC4. That 's the industry rumor. Who knows if it will be the truth?


Cedia is almost exactly 6 months away. We won't see many new models before that. But Planar is rolling out some stuff.

We will see a 3 chip DLP for $10K in September. Yes, or something close to that, with the lower DC3 chip and a lens of $5k projector quality. From who? Some present DLP FP manufacturer but I haven't a clue who. Supposedly some industry people have seen it or probably have been told under nondisclosure agreements. Thats what was published in WSR by an installer under a nondisclosure is his installer column.

Boy, that makes the coming CEDIA an exciting prospect, with the new products coming out about a yr from now. If dlp's can get their O/F CR up to the RS1--and the 11S2 sounds like it's close--that will make them an outstanding possibility. If they can do this for < $10K, they should have a very competitive product.
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post #559 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:04 PM
 
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The article also talked about an under $4K Epson DLP that had picture and features of a $10K plus projector(not optics though). Still a ways off and how long after the show will it be before you can buy this stuff? I'm going with the 11S2.

The Memphis/UT game keeps getting bigger here.
According to the Memphis Flyer, FedExForum officials say its the SECOND hardest ticket in the history of the forum.

Hardest ticket? Hannah Montanna.
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post #560 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:07 PM
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WOW, crazyness.

DC5 to be seen in 6 months when there are only 2 projectors using DC4 out so far.

Are the DC4 chips that go to three chippers different in any way than the ones that go into one chippers, Mark? That doesnt make sense to me that they would be more expensive if they are "meant" for 3 chippers.

Dont know about Memphis, but I see the celtics record getting tarnished now that they actually are playing some real teams. 8) They probably should have traded for Jason Kidd and Shaq. Now that would be a pretty decent starting five.

They could call them the Grumpy Old Men + KG. 8)
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post #561 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:09 PM
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Hardest ticket? Hannah Montanna.

I'll second that. I have a 7 and a 4 year old daughter. When HM came to town, we actually signed up for the fan club in order to get advance tickets to the show. Literally the moment they went on sales for members, my wife went there and got good seats. But there was an issue with a security setting so by the time she fixed it (about 15 seconds) those seats were gone. She grabbed the next ones available and we were opposite the stadium in the upper corner! Apparently within about 1 minute after that they were all gone completely (so I suppose we were lucky).

I have to say though, I was quite entertained by the whole thing. Maybe I am crazy, or it could be the fact that I watch the show all the time with my daughter, but it was a good concert.
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post #562 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:13 PM
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My wife took my little girl to that concert in Austin.

We werent sure we would be able to get them for not too expensive, either, so we bought advanced tickets to the limited showing 3D movie and I ended up taking my daughter and 2 older boys to it. Not too bad really.

That girl is making some nice change right now. Kind of like Steve Nash on the celtics. 8)
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post #563 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:14 PM
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Jason, check my PM when you get a chance!
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Haflich, on March 16 your Celtics play my Rockets.

Ill make you a $500 bet that my Rockets beat that little eastern conference ass .. if you win it could help pay for your NBA league pass and even help you get started on some season tickets for next year 8) .. We can send the money to Jason and he can send the $1k to whoever wins it.
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post #565 of 1662 Old 02-22-2008, 09:20 PM
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TI is very very secretative. manufacturers through their contracts with TI are forebidden under penalty of financial ruin re discussing pricing structure. several manufacturers have stated that the DC4 chip is much more expensive than the DC3.

There may be licensing issues involved in the use of chips supplied at a certain price. rear projectors, single chip front, three chip front. TI makes a whole bunch of technology available for a price to enable a chip or chips to be used. Why do you guys think a three chipper is so much more expensive than a one chipper? sure you trade a wheel for a prism and there are three light pathways to bounce around, very aligned and the combined but do you really think the extra parts explain the 3 to 6 fold increase in MSRP. No one who knows is allowed to discuss details and I certainly don't know.


a chip cost us ___. Every see a post setting this forth. Big lawsuit would come and the babbling company would severly pay. I think many of us have been told that.

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post #566 of 1662 Old 02-23-2008, 05:52 AM
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The CR of the 'latest generation' of DMD chip has followed a fairly steady progression since the introduction of Darkchip1. DC2 was 30% better than DC1. DC3 was only 15% better than DC2. The TI press release on the DC4 stated another 30% improvement. According to the TI slide linked below, that puts the native full panel CR of a DC4 chip at around 3000:1. Unless this theoretical DC5 is a completely different animal, I don't see how it could provide more than another incremental improvement over the DC4. TI can only make the mirrors so flat. They can only shrink the mirror gaps so much, and they can only darken the area under the mirrors so much. Eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns. Perhaps they have increased the tilt angle beyond the present 12 degrees. It would be awesome if someone can build a bright, 30,000+ native CR DLP but I am not counting on it any time soon.

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post #567 of 1662 Old 02-23-2008, 06:25 AM
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No tickets were available in Chicago for fan club members, when I learned of that angle. They went on sale at 10:30 on a Saturday. Of course, comspastic, was down and I had to try over the phone No luck!

As it turned out, my daughter's best friend's cousin's roommate's father is the Jonas Brothers manager! She got fourth row seats AND a meet and greet with Hannah and the brothers!

What's the best projector for the 3D movie?

Heanon, HT Newbie
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post #568 of 1662 Old 02-23-2008, 06:45 AM
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the projector manufacturers, which of course are allowed to discuss performance specs, are reportedly (by them) not achieving an end result out the lens on 30% greater on/off CR. hey are talkin a 10% improvement and one that does not justify the increased chip costs.


Maybe what they are implying is a two step improvement from the DC3 to the DC5 that might total 30% out. Is there a guarantee of a DC5 proto at Cedia/ No. Only rumors. Could be Cedia, CES, or Cedia a year and one half from now in Atlanta. But its coming.

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post #569 of 1662 Old 02-23-2008, 06:59 AM
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Well the only DC3 to DC4 machines we have to compare are the VP11s1, VP15s1 and VP11s2. The 15s1 and 11s1 are both DC3, but with a different iris setups. As I recall both had a max CR between 3000:1 and 4000:1. Now we have the 11S2 at over 10,000:1. Don't the 15s1 and 11s2 share the same dual iris design? I am sure there are other differences between the 15s1 and 11s2, but what can account for a 3x improvement in CR? Some of that must be coming from the DC4 chip and I bet it is more than 10%.
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post #570 of 1662 Old 02-23-2008, 07:20 AM
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Maybe Mr. Miller from Marantz can err chip in.

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