Marantz VP-11S2 - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-26-2008, 09:37 AM
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I am fully aware of what the Unishape technology can do. But the dynamic dimming/brightening is what increases CR in the end is it not? My point was there is not a single chip DC3 that does not use either an iris, or lamp modulation to reach a CR of over 5000.
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Old 04-26-2008, 09:45 AM
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Can an S2 owner tell me the full capability and controls of the V-stretch mode. I asked the WSR reviewer but he didn't know and hadn't checked this vital control.

1. Is it vertical only and what is the range?

2. If also horizontal whats its range.

3. Do the 2 (if there is horizontal) correlate to restore geometry

4. How many memories are there

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

I am fully aware of what the Unishape technology can do. But the dynamic dimming/brightening is what increases CR in the end is it not? My point was there is not a single chip DC3 that does not use either an iris, or lamp modulation to reach a CR of over 5000.

My post never mentioned single chip or unishape. You point is well made though.

Imagine a PJ that developed 1100 D65 lumen at 7500CR using Unishape.

Now apply an iris that could clamp down to 600lumen and 20k CR.

Not unrealistic and best of both worlds. That would be nice.

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:30 AM
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Yes 600 lumens and 20k CR from a DLP would be very nice indeed. But I don't think you will get there without the iris being of the dynamic type. The Planar 8150 has both a dynamic iris, and per color segment lamp modulation (Bob W. would not say if it was Unishape or another implementation). It appears from early reviews that it should be capable of 1000 lumens D65 with an over 10k CR. Hopefully it will reach the spec. of 15k CR.
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

I don't think you will get there without the iris being of the dynamic type.

I do, and Im willing to bet on it. Im also willing to bet that it will be bettered by a factor of 10 and even more.

Just a hunch.

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:47 AM
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Better what by a factor of 10? Are you saying a CR of 200k at 600 lumens?
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

In iris 3 - Jason had 800 lumens and approximated/ballparked 5,000 CR (based on compared brightness and blacks to his HT380) at 800 lumens and Greg has 842 lumens with 3,340 CR.

Glad to see the iris 3 figures. I'm looking for it. 800 lumens + 4k CR is perfectly fine for me. I'm doing 110" wide in a not so perfect rm, so I dun need that mega 5 digit CR numbers. But the brightness, sharpness, motion smoothness of the Marantz should help. With RS2 I dun have a choice to run it at 5k CR but with 800 lumens.
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Even a decent DC3 will give 5000-6000 without an iris.

I doubt that. Even projectors that don't allow the user to change the iris position still have irises. It would be a little strange to spin it that one projector has low native CR because they allow the user to open the irises farther than another one does which doesn't have user selectable iris choices or compare a non-dynamic system to a dynamic system as if the non-dynamic one should have gotten more because the dynamic one did.
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

For the same money you could go from 8k and 300lumen to 6.5k and 1100 lumen and get a decent size screen lit up.... 11ft wide 235 at 28fL that would fade to 18fl. The S2 would give 8fL fading to less than 5

Why not just tell people what projector you are talking about, since it has to be available for your claim to be true? Using street price for one vs MSRP for the other would be wrong, but I can't tell whether you are doing that without knowing what other projector you are talking about.

Is the SIM2 that uses Unishape modulating the lamp based on the scene content and adjusting the gamma as the lamp is dimmed (so things at 20 IRE don't just get darker when the lamp goes darker)? Dynamic dimming like dynamic irises do, even if using the bulb instead, is not native CR, so that alone would go against your claims of Marantz's native CR being x amount lower.

--Darin

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

At least two trusted sources have published their reviews of the 11S2 so far...

I was not aware that Jason had "published" any CR numbers for the 11S2. The fact that he no longer publishes CR and lumen numbers is unfortunate. The AVS community is missing a very important unbiased and objective source of information that a lot of us held in high regards.
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

The haze is source dependent, want to get ride of it? Raise up Gamma, or lower brightness by 2 clicks. Fixed. But thats not what is on the disk.

Raising the gamma to 2.4-2.5 is what is on the disc with reference to the CRT monitors used for mastering the material. 2.2 isn't, so you may see more haze than the person doing the mastering saw. But, going to 2.4-2.5 can have problems with lower on/off CR. I don't believe the S2 even has a choice to even go to a straight 2.2 (it comes out of black faster than that, meaning it would make things just above black more gray than 2.2), and has no higher choices, so an external processor would be required to go to "Raise up Gamma". In which case the higher black floor described by on/off CR comes into play.

--Darin

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Old 04-26-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I was not aware that Jason had "published" any CR numbers for the 11S2. The fact that he no longer publishes CR and lumen numbers is unfortunate. The AVS community is missing a very important unbiased and objective source of information that a lot of us held in high regards.

I agree, although I understand the decision. Unlike most of the other reviewers, AVS is in the business of selling PJs, not just reviewing them. Posting numbers could hurt a relationship with a supplier if it puts their product at a disadvantage, even if the measurements are accurate.
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Can an S2 owner tell me the full capability and controls of the V-stretch mode. I asked the WSR reviewer but he didn't know and hadn't checked this vital control.

1. Is it vertical only and what is the range?

2. If also horizontal whats its range.

3. Do the 2 (if there is horizontal) correlate to restore geometry

4. How many memories are there

What I can tell you is based on what I see in the manual, but I can test whatever you like.

The v-stretch mode seems to be a simple vertical stretch for 2.35 content with no options to adjust as far as I can tell.

There is a width control that can reduce the width up to 75%, looks like you cannot increase.

There is also a zoom control - I think primarily for 4:3 letterbox content, again, no options.

Nine programmable user memories.
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:24 AM
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i wish there could be a thread about the s2

i have one that jason calibrated and then calibrated again with the lumagen radiance. it is a great combination. coming from my 6 - 7 years of front pjs. this is the most pleasing thus far. i don't know how to use an instrument to document contrast. but i have two of the best instruments to make a measurement of contrast on the front of my head. the s2 on/off is the same as the rs1. ansi contrast is much greater.

how about some s2 tips from users?
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:33 AM
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Using Phlatlight technology might boost the on/off contrast as much as you like but would in practise cause brightness compression. The s2 shows that DC4 allows for a small increase in native contrast. The remaining step dlp has to take is going from 12 to 14 degree mirror angle. How much this can increase the native contrast is anybody´s guess. A good estimate is possibly that 14 degrees can double the native contrast.

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Old 04-26-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I doubt that. Even projectors that don't allow the user to change the iris position still have irises. It would be a little strange to spin it that one projector has low native CR because they allow the user to open the irises farther than another one does which doesn't have user selectable iris choices or compare a non-dynamic system to a dynamic system as if the non-dynamic one should have gotten more because the dynamic one did.
Why not just tell people what projector you are talking about, since it has to be available for your claim to be true? Using street price for one vs MSRP for the other would be wrong, but I can't tell whether you are doing that without knowing what other projector you are talking about.

Is the SIM2 that uses Unishape modulating the lamp based on the scene content and adjusting the gamma as the lamp is dimmed (so things at 20 IRE don't just get darker when the lamp goes darker)? Dynamic dimming like dynamic irises do, even if using the bulb instead, is not native CR, so that alone would go against your claims of Marantz's native CR being x amount lower.

--Darin

1. Your iris points are very well made, and taken on board. I'll look into specifics on the iris performance. Thanks for pointing that out.

2. The PJ I referred to is no mystery. I assumed it was obvious and didnt want to bring other machines into the thread. And there was no misleading street/MSRP BS going on. An HT3000e will give over 6000CR and 1100 calibrated lumens. Its long throw option ( i would need that on either machine) is $1k as opposed to $3k extra on the S2. No external VP needed for good colorimetry either. For my needs that makes the 3000e MSRP of $16k as opposed to $22k with the S2 (or $18k if you can live with the oversaturation ).

For a decent sized screen and a good fL number, there is no competition.

I have no dog in this fight as I don't use single chip DLP.

The S2 is a great machine, one of the better single chippers (of those they've tested) according to WSR, but its not the panacea that some portray. No machine is.

Horses for courses.

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Old 04-26-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

What I can tell you is based on what I see in the manual, but I can test whatever you like.

The v-stretch mode seems to be a simple vertical stretch for 2.35 content with no options to adjust as far as I can tell.

There is a width control that can reduce the width up to 75%, looks like you cannot increase.

There is also a zoom control - I think primarily for 4:3 letterbox content, again, no options.

Nine programmable user memories.

1. So the vertical scaling is not fully variable.

2. Nor is the horizontal

3. When I referred to use memories, I was referring to memory location for specifically fully variable AR control, if available. I doesn't allow fully variable AR so the point is moot

I was basically asking if it had fully variable and programmable AR control on either or both axes. It doesn't.

Thanks for the time and effort, I appreciate it.

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Old 04-26-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

Better what by a factor of 10?

CR

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Old 04-26-2008, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

I agree, although I understand the decision. Unlike most of the other reviewers, AVS is in the business of selling PJs, not just reviewing them. Posting numbers could hurt a relationship with a supplier if it puts their product at a disadvantage, even if the measurements are accurate.

One of the issues was the accuracy of the numbers, as stated by Jason himself. The test conditions and equipment weren't close to ideal. The numbers therefore were not suitable for comparison to those taken in ideal conditions with state of the art equipment. Some people quoted them in that manner. It was a no win situation.

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Old 04-26-2008, 12:20 PM
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"I am fully aware of what the Unishape technology can do. But the dynamic dimming/brightening is what increases CR in the end is it not?"

Modulating the lamp to boost output while illuminating the red segment increases CR independent of and w/o "cheating" like a DI and incurs no brightness [edit] compression.

It essentially gives a lamp that has closer to the correct color spectrum, so that lumens and CR don't have to be thrown away to get it there.

Noah
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Old 04-26-2008, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I am fully aware of what the Unishape technology can do. But the dynamic dimming/brightening is what increases CR in the end is it not?"

Modulating the lamp to boost output while illuminating the red segment increases CR independent of and w/o "cheating" like a DI and incurs no brightness correction.

It essentially gives a lamp that has closer to the correct color spectrum, so that lumens and CR don't have to be thrown away to get it there.

I recall reading years ago that InFocus was increasing the lamp power during the red segment and then maybe a year or two ago that Marantz was doing this. What some of us are thinking of is dynamic dimming or brightening based on scene content that is more like a dynamic iris, as far as increasing CR in a way that isn't native CR. Pushing the power within the red segment falls within the native CR IMO, but lowering the power to the lamp because a scene has an APL of 10% doesn't. There may also be cases where the line between what is native CR and what is dynamic CR gets blurred.

BTW: If a company is going to use a bulb or LED like a dynamic iris then I would like to see them also give us manual iris choices like the 11S2 does. A 300 lumen mode for more CR is something I would value and even if it didn't increase the CR, I think there is value in having significantly dimmer and brighter modes (2x or so) without having to use a neutral density filter. I don't necessarily want movies and video games or sports to have the same levels and brighter modes can be nice for cases with lights on.

--Darin

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Old 04-26-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

BTW: If a company is going to use a bulb or LED like a dynamic iris then I would like to see them also give us manual iris choices like the 11S2 does. A 300 lumen mode for more CR is something I would value and even if it didn't increase the CR, I think there is value in having significantly dimmer and brighter modes (2x or so) without having to use a neutral density filter. I don't necessarily want movies and video games or sports to have the same levels and brighter modes can be nice for cases with lights on.

--Darin

Agree 100%, ideally I'd like to see infinitely varible lamp output but barring that a couple more options other than high and economy would be of great value. Voltage/current regulation required for arc stability must make this a very difficult task but my biggest wish is for, near future, light sources allowing an array of custom light output options.

Edit: an infinitely variable iris would be cool too but I'd rather keep moving parts and necessary controllers out of my projector.
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Old 04-26-2008, 02:46 PM
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I was not aware that Jason had "published" any CR numbers for the 11S2. The fact that he no longer publishes CR and lumen numbers is unfortunate. The AVS community is missing a very important unbiased and objective source of information that a lot of us held in high regards.

HHF, Jason had not "published" the numbers but since they were taken from my unit I had the numbers which I shared. 8)

I know its convenient for some to point to his numbers as some type of "blind test" to substantiate their numbers, when its convenient, just as its easy for them to dimiss his numbers, or integrity - if you can believe that, when it hurts the arguments they are trying to make.

One thing is clear though, people who have seen these projectors in the same room, in the same environment, on the same material, seem to repeatedly support Jason's measurements and conclusions.

Jason still likes the SIM2 projectors. As he has noted on other theads, however, he doesnt believe that they are the best of the bunch anymore. It probably wont be long, but Im sure the time will come for the 11S2 to have step aside in Jason's eyes, too.

Someday, something will come that will knock the RS2 off of Greg's pedestal, too.

Quote:


I recall reading years ago that InFocus was increasing the lamp power during the red segment and then maybe a year or two ago that Marantz was doing this. What some of us are thinking of is dynamic dimming or brightening based on scene content that is more like a dynamic iris, as far as increasing CR in a way that isn't native CR. Pushing the power within the red segment falls within the native CR IMO, but lowering the power to the lamp because a scene has an APL of 10% doesn't. There may also be cases where the line between what is native CR and what is dynamic CR gets blurred.

The specifics of how lamp pulsing/modulation increase brightness/CR/etc are interesting and it does seem that they do bring the benefit of a higher CR and a brighter simultaneous image. These benefits, though, do come at the apparently documented expense of at the minimum a greater propensity for rainbows and the scene to scene shifting of color/skin tones.

Its fairly recent history and Im sure everyone is very familiar with the reports of greater incidences of rainbows and of others turning off brilliant color on other machines because of the colors shifting.

As far as color accuracy goes, wouldnt shifting colors because of lamp pulsing actually shift the colors on a scene to scene basis? Wouldnt this color "shifting" actually hurt the color accuracy of the image?

If you fix colors with a CMS with the lamp at a certain level of brightness wouldnt you again have to shift it every time that it modulated for it to actually be as color accurate as possible?

There are some remarks from Bob Williams, with Planar, on some of the negatives on the Planar threads.

Regardless of the benefits, negatives, measurement techniques and instrumentation used one thing that is clear to me is that in Jason's setup, same environment, etc, in iris 3 the 11S2 has similar brightness, actually brighter, than the HT380 and has similar black level (hence his comment that the CR was similar, around 5500 or so) and does not need lamp modulation or a dynamic iris to achieve it.
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Old 04-26-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

in Jason's setup, same environment, etc, in iris 3 the 11S2 has similar brightness, actually brighter, than the HT380 and has similar black level (hence his comment that the CR was similar, around 5500 or so) and does not need lamp modulation or a dynamic iris to achieve it.


A human eyeball that can give a CR reading as precise as that. thats one miraculous organ right there (again)

The human visual system is notoriously inaccurate in this regard, due to its non linear and adaptive nature.

Im glad your happy with your purchase. Despite my criticisms I always said Its a good machine. WSR said it was one of the best single chip DLPs they'd tested.



PS could you answer the V-stretch questions I posted above? I'd appreciate that, thanks.

Ignore that question Cat, I've just had it answered.

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Old 04-26-2008, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

A little off topic, but as long as we are discussing the issue.

I noticed when setting the no-scaling option in the Radiance that it initially was not working. The info screen showed that the incoming resolution was 1914x1077, thus scaling could not defeated. I found that the crop settings had been set with a few pixels on each setting - I have never set or looked at these options before.

I am wondering if these are the default settings, and the slight softening could be related to this. People have it set this way and did not realize it. This is the first firmware that I have seen this incoming resolution showed on the second info screen.

Of course, I reset all the values to zero, and no-scaling can now be activated. Didn't have much time to compare yet though.

By default a 1920x1080 input is not cropped. So, somehow your setting are not default. I suspect you already have, but back out of these to the default crop setting (e.g. no-crop), and you will get the scaling to turn off. Your stated setting is at "scale just a little bit" which is by far the hardest thing to do for any scaling algorithm.

You will then be completely bypassing scaling on our FPGA. The video still is processed by the Gennum (now Sigma) chip for deinterlacing and any image enhancement. It also is processed by the calibration software (but this will not affect sharpenss of the image).

Please make sure the black level is as good as you can get it, since if black is too high at all the image will look softer. We have had people not set our input and output PC level that caused them to think it looked soft, but once they set input/output level correctly, they said the image looked sharp. If you are coming in and going out 4:2:2, then these input/output PC/video level settings do not apply (4:2:2 is always video level).

Hope this is helpful. Please send email to support at lumagen.com if you have questions, or check the Beta forum.

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Old 04-26-2008, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

By default a 1920x1080 input is not cropped. So, somehow your setting are not default. I suspect you already have, but back out of these to the default crop setting (e.g. no-crop), and you will get the scaling to turn off. Your stated setting is at "scale just a little bit" which is by far the hardest thing to do for any scaling algorithm.

You will then be completely bypassing scaling on our FPGA. The video still is processed by the Gennum (now Sigma) chip for deinterlacing and any image enhancement. It also is processed by the calibration software (but this will not affect sharpenss of the image).

Please make sure the black level is as good as you can get it, since if black is too high at all the image will look softer. We have had people not set our input and output PC level that caused them to think it looked soft, but once they set input/output level correctly, they said the image looked sharp. If you are coming in and going out 4:2:2, then these input/output PC/video level settings do not apply (4:2:2 is always video level).

Hope this is helpful. Please send email to support at lumagen.com if you have questions, or check the Beta forum.

Thanks for posting and taking the time

When can we expect a true pass through?

I would instantly be in the market for 2 machines.

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Old 04-26-2008, 09:12 PM
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[In my previous post meant "compression", not correction]

"Pushing the power within the red segment falls within the native CR IMO, but lowering the power to the lamp because a scene has an APL of 10% doesn't."

That was exactly my point - lamp modulation can be used to increase native CR w/no downside that I can see, or to act like a DI with its shortcomings and advantages.

Noah
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Old 04-26-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

When can we expect a true pass through?

I would instantly be in the market for 2 machines.

We have plans for a near-zero latency pass-through.

I assume you want the calibration features, but no scaling or enhancement features, correct? What we have now is pass-through if input matches output. Otherwise, if the input does not match output resolution we scale. Are you asking for us to never scale, and switch the output to match the input?

Do you want a pure switch function without calibration? This is what you will get if you don't change any settings from default.

We have a number of other features as higher priority, but if enough people vote for this one over other planned features I can move it up. Best to place votes on our main Radiance thread.

Jim Peterson
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Miller View Post

This is from THE engineer:

STANDARD: 2.2
DYNAMIC: Marantz original curve (s curve)
THEATER: Marantz original curve (multiple curve)
A: 1.9
B: 2.0
C: 2.2 (darker than standard's near black)
D: 2.4
E: Marantz original curve (very s curve)

Just FYI.

Also, a screen will not change gamma.


Is this still true?

Greg stated that there is barley a 2.2 mode in his review.

And C was around 1.8 for his measurements.

Did Greg get a unusual review unit?

Dan did you get a chance to read the review?
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Is this still true?

Greg stated that there is barley a 2.2 mode in his review.

And C was around 1.8 for his measurements.

Did Greg get a unusual review unit?

Dan did you get a chance to read the review?


I haven't been following the Gregr threads and don't know if he provides details of the settings used on the machine he used. If may be worth asking for black level, contrast etc, etc just for ref if he didn't already provide. Or even better thas base data from the measure taken.

D
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

We have plans for a near-zero latency pass-through.

I assume you want the calibration features, but no scaling or enhancement features, correct? What we have now is pass-through if input matches output. Otherwise, if the input does not match output resolution we scale. Are you asking for us to never scale, and switch the output to match the input?

Do you want a pure switch function without calibration? This is what you will get if you don't change any settings from default.

We have a number of other features as higher priority, but if enough people vote for this one over other planned features I can move it up. Best to place votes on our main Radiance thread.


Hi Jim

Thanks for claryifing. I assume the low latency pass-through would be of benefit in gaming applications were user action and screen respons is important ?

D
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