RS2/ PRO-FPJ1 Owners: Setup Discussion Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-26-2008, 05:48 PM
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Rob,

Sweet! You will love it!

Chris,

When you post your Avia results, let us know what gamma setting you are using also!

Phil,

Thanks! Yeah it does look great! Definitely a major distraction, but it is fun to have it running while I finish installing outlets etc.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-26-2008, 05:52 PM
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Congrats Rob. I was starting to get you confused with Rich for a while but Im glad to see you finally got the OK from the wife to pull the trigger. 8)

If your buddy wont buy the RS1 I am sure there will be lots of takers on the forums. 8)
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Old 02-26-2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Congrats Rob. I was starting to get you confused with Rich for a while but Im glad to see you finally got the OK from the wife to pull the trigger. 8)

If your buddy wont buy the RS1 I am sure there will be lots of takers on the forums. 8)

Yeah but his friend is willing to buy it for MSRP - $500 (and thinks he is getting a great deal because of Rob's special secret calibrations).

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Old 02-26-2008, 06:13 PM
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Rob, if your buddy is interested in buying a house in Texas, please send him my way. 8)
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:15 PM
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Purchased the RS2 couple of weeks back and have been doing many adjustments to the projector and getting to know it better. The posting from Alan in regards to the bottom 5% IRE adjustment was the final setting that made things perfect in my room ( total light control ).

What I had noticed before was a crush in the black levels. For example in the scene of Fifth Element ( Blu-RAY from PS3 ) before they are about to attack the opera scene and kill the Diva, they enter a small dark room. With basic AVIA setup what I noticed is that the background wall was lacking of all detail and very dark. Once I implemented the Alan's trick with the bottom 5% IRE I noticed things much improved in shadow detail including that scene.

Really appreciate the feedback there. I had one questions for owners of the RS2. Something that I have observed and a friend of mine observed also.

I am using a Oppo 980H upscaling for regular DVD. I have it connected to the RS2 via HDMI and I currently use the Oppo HM-31 as a switcher for all my HDMI. What I have noticed is that if I configure the Oppo 980H to send 480i over HDMI to the RS2 the image is really bad. It seems like a very bad upscale or just a pixel expansion upscale.

If I plug the Oppo via component to the RS2 and feed 480i I get a proper upscaled image. It hasn't bothered me that much because the upscaler on the Oppo is very nice, but it has been 'bugging me' and just wanted to throw the question out for others to see if they see the same ( seen this on two separate units ).

Does this mean that a 480i inbound on HDMI is not being processed by the internal scaler of the rs2? Or maybe not getting the full treatment?

Thoughts?
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:58 PM
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Mike,

No wife here bro. Single and happy with that. Although, even if I did have a wife I can guarantee I wouldn't be asking her for permission to spend the money I make.



Cameron,

hehehe nice and I wish I could get that type of cash for it. I am selling it to him for 3.5k and I am throwing in a brand new bulb so he's basically get a new RS1 sans a year of the warranty which IMO is no biggie sicne the PJ seems to be problem free. I'm taking a good hit on the resale (compared to what I paid and the fact I only used it for a year meaning I shouldn't even be selling it now) but it is ok because my impatient self really wants that RS2 and it is only money.

ROB
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:11 AM
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Thanks, millerwill & Cameron.
My salesman (orders only) says that he can't get one from his distributor and that the latest shipment are all allocated.
I have an e-mail requesting info for Jason at AVS.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron View Post

Chris,

When you post your Avia results, let us know what gamma setting you are using also!

Right now I keep finding myself always going back to Normal. The custom gamma 2.4 with the W ire bumped up 5 looks pretty darn good for the overall image, but some of the shadow detail is still missing. The problem is, you can spend hours and hours doing different configurations and like them all!

Once I get my replacement AA video switcher, I will calibrate again and settle on 2 or 3 combos to cover different types of viewing.

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raf View Post

What I had noticed before was a crush in the black levels. For example in the scene of Fifth Element ( Blu-RAY from PS3 ) before they are about to attack the opera scene and kill the Diva, they enter a small dark room. With basic AVIA setup what I noticed is that the background wall was lacking of all detail and very dark. Once I implemented the Alan's trick with the bottom 5% IRE I noticed things much improved in shadow detail including that scene.

Really appreciate the feedback there. I had one questions for owners of the RS2. Something that I have observed and a friend of mine observed also.

I am using a Oppo 980H upscaling for regular DVD. I have it connected to the RS2 via HDMI and I currently use the Oppo HM-31 as a switcher for all my HDMI. What I have noticed is that if I configure the Oppo 980H to send 480i over HDMI to the RS2 the image is really bad. It seems like a very bad upscale or just a pixel expansion upscale.

If I plug the Oppo via component to the RS2 and feed 480i I get a proper upscaled image. It hasn't bothered me that much because the upscaler on the Oppo is very nice, but it has been 'bugging me' and just wanted to throw the question out for others to see if they see the same ( seen this on two separate units ).

Does this mean that a 480i inbound on HDMI is not being processed by the internal scaler of the rs2? Or maybe not getting the full treatment?

Thoughts?

I use the 970HD and fed the RS2 both HDMI and component. Both will upscale. I found them to look exactly alike, but I was feeding the RS2 720p and 1080i, not 480i. Did you try 720 or 1080? Also, you want to make sure VS is turned off. When I was using a Toshiba A30, it would upscale thru HDMI but not component. My VS was turned on at the time and when switching between the comp and HDMI, the RS2 would automatically turn on/off VS and blow the image out of proportion. Just a thought.

You can see what the RS2 is doing by going into menu/info while a source is playing and see what it is scaling to.

Chris

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

Right now I keep finding myself always going back to Normal. The custom gamma 2.4 with the W ire bumped up 5 looks pretty darn good for the overall image, but some of the shadow detail is still missing. The problem is, you can spend hours and hours doing different configurations and like them all!

Once I get my replacement AA video switcher, I will calibrate again and settle on 2 or 3 combos to cover different types of viewing.

Last night I had some time to play with the Ggamma. I tried both straight 2.5 and then the 2.4 with the bump of 5 in the lower W ire. It looks really really really good (the 2.4 custom). I definitely like it a lot more than Normal. I didn't get to watch too much stuff on it though. Mostly Dish HD stuff. The Discovery Bismark HD and American Idol in HD. At least on those two, I couldn't see any missing detail in the dark areas.

Are you noticing the missing shadow detail only on upscaled SD stuff?

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:15 AM
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Also, did you adjust your brightness after changing the gamma?

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron View Post

It looks really really really good (the 2.4 custom). I definitely like it a lot more than Normal. At least on those two, I couldn't see any missing detail in the dark areas.

Are you noticing the missing shadow detail only on upscaled SD stuff?

I've been using the HBOHD SW Attack of the Clones and an upscaled Superbit Fifth Element DVD mostly to check shadow detail. I pretty much see the same on both. I also think the 2.4 gamma looks excellent, it's just that there was for sure some loss of detail in the lower range. What I did not do is spend much time trying to compensate for that. I will when I get a chance and it'll probably end up being one of my 'User' buttons.

I figure everyones setups are a little different, sources, rooms, screens, throw, etc., so I'm sure we all will have a little variation in what we like best.

I checked and adjusted when needed, the black, white and color after changing gammas. It's very nice to see they didn't need much adjustment.

If you get a chance Cameron, try freezing a dark scene on sat or a dvd, switch between the different gammas and pay close attention to shadow detail. I'd like to know if you see what I'm seeing.

Chris

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Old 02-27-2008, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

One thing that I did not pin you down on in the RS2 review thread and that I remain curious about is whether I might get more bang for my buck with a videoprocessor that will allow me to tweak the gamma.

I assume that at some point you tried the RS1 with a higher gamma? If you did, what did you find?

I've been meaning to answer this question but when I've had time I kept forgetting. Sorry. I didn't have time to adjust an external processor for a higher gamma while I was doing the review (it would have been a lot of work with the processor I had at the time). That is why I only said in the RS1 review,

"This is the first lamp-based projector that has a native full-field contrast ratio high enough to nearly emulate a CRT projector, so I was surprised that a CRT-like gamma curve of 2.4 or 2.5 wasn't included. I believe that would have increased the image depth in moderately bright to bright movies."

Perhaps that comment had some influence on the JVC engineers adding the higher, custom gamma feature to the RS2, although I suspect they saw the same opportunity themselves. Anyway, I believe that a higher gamma (2.3-2.4 for the RS1) will do what I said and increase the image depth on the RS1 in moderately bright to bright movies, but I strongly suspect that you would need to lower the gamma back to 2.2 below 10-15 IRE or so, because the full-field contrast ratio of the RS1 is not as high as the RS2. And that will depend on throw ratio, etc (you may recall that my RS1 sample had a CR above 19,000:1 at max throw, which was considerably better than spec). Sorry I can't be more precise but I didn't have time to try it and experiment with it during the RS1 review, and I sent the RS1 back shortly after the review was complete. The higher CR of the RS2 provides the opportunity to use a higher gamma (2.4-2.5, although I favor 2.4) across a wider input signal range, and hence improve the image depth in more images.

Greg Rogers
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

I use the 970HD and fed the RS2 both HDMI and component. Both will upscale. I found them to look exactly alike, but I was feeding the RS2 720p and 1080i, not 480i. Did you try 720 or 1080? Also, you want to make sure VS is turned off. When I was using a Toshiba A30, it would upscale thru HDMI but not component. My VS was turned on at the time and when switching between the comp and HDMI, the RS2 would automatically turn on/off VS and blow the image out of proportion. Just a thought.

You can see what the RS2 is doing by going into menu/info while a source is playing and see what it is scaling to.

Chris

Chris:

The image is scaled properly. It fits the screen and geometry wise it is perfect. What I meant ( didn't express this properly ) was that it seemed like the scaler isn't functioning properly or completely.

If you look at the image closely what I see is that the pixels are blocky. Hard to describe in words. If you have done Photoshop it's the difference between a bicubic interpolation and say a bitmap upscale ( where pixels are simply multiplied x*y*size ) and it is very blocky.

I have tested with 720 etc, and when you compare it to the upscale of sending 1080p directly over HDMI there is a visible difference. If I do the same exact thing via the component, it is scaled properly and there is no visible block structure. This is subtle but noticeable.

I doubt that it's something special about the Oppo. I think I can try with other sources (PS3, xbox360) to see if I can reproduce it there.

Raf
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:55 PM
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Chris,

Yeah I will do that. Right now all I have hooked up is the XA2 and the VIP 722 receiver. Unfortunately for some reason, the 722 receiver is not working right. I had Dish out to fix the issue and it worked for one day after that. Now it is dead again.

It seems like every Satellite receiver that I put in a basement has issues. I don't get it!

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:57 PM
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can any of you fine men tell me if your eyes are 10 feet away....how large can your image get 16x9 full screen before screen door is a problem
Thnka
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:00 PM
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My guess is that you can get it big enough. I will post later when I get a chance.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:45 PM
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I posted this in the CIH forum, but this is an appropriate thread to ask as well:

I plan on buying the JVC RS2 projector for my home theater.

Admittedly I'm doing a sort of "want it all" set up for my new HT, in that I will be using a 4 way masking screen system to have variable image sizes using the projector zoom. Unfortunately JVC only automated the zoom in the RS2, while the lens shift function remains as two manual knobs on the underside, on each side of the lens (I recently had a chance to fiddle with them on an RS1).

So far no biggie. BUT...I do anticipate employing an anamorphic lens somewhere down the line. This is because I'll be buying a 124" wide screen but I don't think I'll be able to mount the RS2 back far enough to go quite that wide. Hence, when I want the rilly, rilly big show it looks like I'd need to add an anamorphic lens.

This brings up the manual lens shift issue. In order to do the fine adjustments to get the image perfectly centered I'll likely have to fiddle with the lens shift knobs. But I'm wondering if an anamorphic lens in the way will prevent it. I haven't a lens or projector, so I can't determine if this will be possible or not.

In my case, the projector will be mounted in a cabinet behind the sofa, about 3 feet or so above my head, so I can reach up to it. An anamorphic lens would be mounted to a shelf in front of the projector.

Anyone who has an RS1/RS2 and an anamorphic lens could perhaps give some insight into this issue. (Although most have theirs ceiling mounted I bet).

Thanks!

Rich H.
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Old 02-27-2008, 11:10 PM
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I really don't like messing with the knobs too much. By the feel of them, they just feel like they could stop working if you messed with them too much. Kinda like the mechanism inside is some cheap plastic that could easily get stripped. It is funny how much slop there is when switching from one direction to the other too.

It is the only piece of the projector that causes me to worry in the longevity dept.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:42 AM
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While being gone to a professional conference, I recently got a chance to see Chris's ht in not so sunny Arizona. While I certainly don't presume that I am qualifed to evaluate anyones home theater, Chris is making something very special down in the desert. Work in progress like all of our hts', but the light at the end of the tunnel is certainly brighter for Chris than for me.
The image the RS2 displayed on his 120" wide SMX at screen was awesome. Chris first demonstrated the RS2 with moderate ambient light and there was still ample contrast to enjoy the content. Of course, make the room totally black and let the show begin. We played some shorts from Dish HD, Roy Orbison (for black and white) and, episode ll of Star Wars. All looked and sounded great, but the widescreen Star War clips using the panamorph had me mesmerized into the scene like I was seeing it for the first time.
The SMX has only 1.16 gain and it seemed plenty bright to me with the RS2. To me, more brightness would make the image less film like and more cartoon like. For those concerned about adequate light, as I was, you really need to see an RS2 in as simular environment as your ht as you can find. I really think you will be as pleased as I was.
I forgot to ask Chris how many hours currently on his lamp but considering the cost of our ht, not a big issue.
Thanks Chris for your time and I hope you were still able to get a round of golf in,
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PS: Sorry I forgot the beer. Next time I am in LHC I"ll drop some by.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I've been meaning to answer this question but when I've had time I kept forgetting. Sorry. I didn't have time to adjust an external processor for a higher gamma while I was doing the review (it would have been a lot of work with the processor I had at the time). That is why I only said in the RS1 review,

"This is the first lamp-based projector that has a native full-field contrast ratio high enough to nearly emulate a CRT projector, so I was surprised that a CRT-like gamma curve of 2.4 or 2.5 wasn't included. I believe that would have increased the image depth in moderately bright to bright movies."

Perhaps that comment had some influence on the JVC engineers adding the higher, custom gamma feature to the RS2, although I suspect they saw the same opportunity themselves. Anyway, I believe that a higher gamma (2.3-2.4 for the RS1) will do what I said and increase the image depth on the RS1 in moderately bright to bright movies, but I strongly suspect that you would need to lower the gamma back to 2.2 below 10-15 IRE or so, because the full-field contrast ratio of the RS1 is not as high as the RS2. And that will depend on throw ratio, etc (you may recall that my RS1 sample had a CR above 19,000:1 at max throw, which was considerably better than spec). Sorry I can't be more precise but I didn't have time to try it and experiment with it during the RS1 review, and I sent the RS1 back shortly after the review was complete. The higher CR of the RS2 provides the opportunity to use a higher gamma (2.4-2.5, although I favor 2.4) across a wider input signal range, and hence improve the image depth in more images.

Thanks Greg. Any word yet on the 11s2?

Affable Nitwit
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron View Post

I really don't like messing with the knobs too much. By the feel of them, they just feel like they could stop working if you messed with them too much. Kinda like the mechanism inside is some cheap plastic that could easily get stripped. It is funny how much slop there is when switching from one direction to the other too.

It is the only piece of the projector that causes me to worry in the longevity dept.

Yeah, having fiddled with the knobs on the RS1 I know what you mean. I know that from reports like yours if I have the RS2 exactly centered to the screen I shouldn't have to use the lens adjustment if I zoom in and out. However I think I'll probably have the RS2 a foot or two higher than screen center. I don't know how much lens shift off-set that will bring in when I zoom, but I want to be able to access the knobs just in case.

As it turns out the anamorphic lens shouldn't present the problem I thought it would. I forgot that once a scaler/stretch is engaged for 2:35:1 the image will be the correct height, so I can just move the lens out of the way to adjust the top masking, then slide the lens in front to adjust the side masking.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:14 AM
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I don't think a foot will make too big of a difference. Ceiling mounted certainly does, but I think you might have to zoom another couple inches to mask the difference, but if you have a masking system, it shouldn't be a problem. The lens should actually help your situation.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Thanks Greg. Any word yet on the 11s2?

Nope

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

In my case, the projector will be mounted in a cabinet behind the sofa, about 3 feet or so above my head, so I can reach up to it. An anamorphic lens would be mounted to a shelf in front of the projector.

Anyone who has an RS1/RS2 and an anamorphic lens could perhaps give some insight into this issue. (Although most have theirs ceiling mounted I bet).

Rich H.

Rich, take a look at the pic. Imagine the pj flipped of course for your application. I think if you can mount the lens assembly from the top, like in the pic, you'll be able to get to the knobs easily.

Chris
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

However I think I'll probably have the RS2 a foot or two higher than screen center. I don't know how much lens shift off-set that will bring in when I zoom, but I want to be able to access the knobs just in case.

Rich, make sure you calculate how much higher than the top of screen you can go. With my pj at 18 ft back and center of lens 13 inches higher than the top of the screen, that is the absolute max I could go with shifting the image down(without tilting the projector).

Chris

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBI View Post

While being gone to a professional conference, I recently got a chance to see Chris's ht in not so sunny Arizona. While I certainly don't presume that I am qualifed to evaluate anyones home theater, Chris is making something very special down in the desert. Work in progress like all of our hts', but the light at the end of the tunnel is certainly brighter for Chris than for me.
The image the RS2 displayed on his 120" wide SMX at screen was awesome. Chris first demonstrated the RS2 with moderate ambient light and there was still ample contrast to enjoy the content. Of course, make the room totally black and let the show begin. We played some shorts from Dish HD, Roy Orbison (for black and white) and, episode ll of Star Wars. All looked and sounded great, but the widescreen Star War clips using the panamorph had me mesmerized into the scene like I was seeing it for the first time.
The SMX has only 1.16 gain and it seemed plenty bright to me with the RS2. To me, more brightness would make the image less film like and more cartoon like. For those concerned about adequate light, as I was, you really need to see an RS2 in as simular environment as your ht as you can find. I really think you will be as pleased as I was.
I forgot to ask Chris how many hours currently on his lamp but considering the cost of our ht, not a big issue.
Thanks Chris for your time and I hope you were still able to get a round of golf in,
Doug
PS: Sorry I forgot the beer. Next time I am in LHC I"ll drop some by.

Hi Doug! Funny how we actually knew each other before conversing here, isn't it?

My bulb has around 50 hrs on it. I finally managed to make macros for doing VStretch and lens in/lens out. Works perfect. Sorry you had to put up with me fumbling around with all those remotes.

Did you decide on a projector yet? I'll take you up on that beer next time you're in town. Just make sure you bring your clubs this time!

Chris

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

Rich, take a look at the pic. Imagine the pj flipped of course for your application. I think if you can mount the lens assembly from the top, like in the pic, you'll be able to get to the knobs easily.

Chris

Thank you for the picture Chris.

I see what you mean but I would have to mount the lens on a shelf below the projector, not from above. But it turns out this won't be a problem for me so long as I use a sled of some sort to move the lens out of the way when adjusting lens shift.

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Rich, make sure you calculate how much higher than the top of screen you can go. With my pj at 18 ft back and center of lens 13 inches higher than the top of the screen, that is the absolute max I could go with shifting the image down(without tilting the projector).

As mentioned, my projector will not be mounted above the screen; it will be in a cabinet behind the viewing sofa and it's height will put
the projector almost centered with the screen center.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:59 AM
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can any of you fine men tell me if your eyes are 10 feet away....how large can your image get 16x9 full screen before screen door is a problem
Thnka
jOHN

John,

For a reference point I do not see the pixels discretley when I am beyond 7 feet from my 180" diaganal 16x9 screen. My eyes are 20/20. If I were at 10 feet the screen could be bigger, of course.

C
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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As mentioned, my projector will not be mounted above the screen;

Oops, I misread that. Sorry.

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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