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post #91 of 4235 Old 01-12-2008, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Leeloo

Phil, interesting comments on the colors being off. All this talk on the RS1's and now the RS2 about the colors being way off. I suppose my RS2, if I was put it thru the paces like you did, could be improved on, but to me the color balance on my RS2 looks pretty darn good. The color tones in Leeloo's hair look almost perfect to me, compared to the seemingly thousands of times I've seen that scene of her on the ledge on many, many different displays. In fact, this last time I watched it, I noticed for the first time that the knotted up strands on each side of her face looked like they were made out of paper and weaved into her hair for the scene.

Superbit version out of my Oppo at 1080i, component.

Have you compared yet the HDMI vs. component outputs inre to color balance?

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post #92 of 4235 Old 01-12-2008, 11:11 AM
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I have a feeling that I am going to use my Radiance to bring the colors back into control somewhat, but I may not go all the way. Right now the colors look good. I haven't compared to my Phelps G15 yet. Maybe next week. Right now I am more concerned about crawling around in fiberglass and running wires so I can have the drywall hangers show up early next week.

I am also waiting for my new colorimeter to show up. When that comes and I get some time, I will put the projector through its paces and see what can be done. Hopefully by then there will be another Lumagen update adding more power to the Radiance.

I really like the flexibility of the Radiance so far. It will save a lot of configuration problems for me. Now I am trying to convice Lumagen to add convergence capability similar to what the Sony VW200 has. That would be sooooo awesome!

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post #93 of 4235 Old 01-13-2008, 11:17 AM
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The colors are definitely watchable even if they are off, (the brain is an amazing thing!), but seeing them next to the G15 will just eat at me until I fix it!, (I know, one of THOSE guys! )

As I said it's a great improvement. I'd say it's close to perfection with the following exceptions:

Low light output > fixable with higher gain screen
Off colors > fixable with Radience
No fixed lens support > fixable with Radience
Red pixel half off > oops!

The only thing not fixable is the red shift. Unfortunately I can't move the projector down to center the lens more so I guess I'm stuck with it, (until the RS3! ).

Note that I don't know if the lens shift is the problem but since I can't move it anyway, it's a moot point. Man, I'm retired and still don't have enough hours in the day!
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post #94 of 4235 Old 01-13-2008, 12:38 PM
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Sounds like a Radiance is definitely for you. Maybe you could help me campaign for Sony style convergence ability being added to the Radiance XD. That might help with your red pixel.

Tom Stites earlier in another thread mentioned that the RS2 did support a fixed lens. He mentioned that you had to use the aspect ratio function to make it work. I have not tried that yet as I am doing a slider myself after the whole zoom focus thing didn't pan out for me.

I have a feeling that what Tom mentioned probably doesn't quite pull it off completely.

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post #95 of 4235 Old 01-13-2008, 12:41 PM
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With all of this talk of the colors compared to the G15, I am making a goal of pulling out my G15 this upcoming week and doing a comparison. My RS2 looks great in the color department so I am thinking the difference is not going to be that great.

I will keep an open mind and see how they compare.

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post #96 of 4235 Old 01-13-2008, 11:16 PM
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Hopefully my Radience will ship next week. Unfortunately the Sony, if I understand it, will just average the two lines so it actually decreases resolution. The best solution would be for better optical path/panel alignment.

The red is only annoying for menu's etc., it isn't an issue for normal viewing. Of course the Sony method likely isn't likely noticable during normal viewing either. I guess it depends on how much horsepower is left in the XD chips. Count me in if it's possible. It would be nice to have the option.

Tom actually answered my question about fixed lens and though he initially said yes, he had to correct himself as it only works for SD sources. HD has no H Squeeze function. I might have passed on the Radience and lived with the colors if RS2 had that function.

My G15 really looked spot on. The RS2 is definitely off but it depends on how sensitive you are to color shift. As an ex engineer it just bugs the heck out of me knowing something is wrong, particularly if it can be fixed.

The more I watch it the more I like it though. Now that it's roughly dialed in, (very roughly! ), the blacks are just stunning and when the colors are dialed in it will truely be a sight. I had a couple of friends over to watch Pirates III and there was dead silence during the entire movie! They became totally immersed and were blown away by the picture.
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post #97 of 4235 Old 01-14-2008, 07:57 AM
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I agree that the best solution would be better optics and panel alignment, but we aren't going to see that on the RS2.

It is too bad that you won't be able to use the RS2 only for fixed lens, but it sounds like you need the Radiance anyway for your own fulfillment level.

Regardless, the Radiance will be much easier to use for switching inputs, and modes as the RS2 is a little weak in the automation department from what I am experiencing.

How did you roughly dial in your RS2?

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post #98 of 4235 Old 01-14-2008, 03:31 PM
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I just boosted the brightness a little and dialed down the color. I can't remember what gamma I am using but it looks rather good now, (like I said; rough! ).

I'll wait for the XD to arrive before I do anything else. I just got my Middle Atlantic frame and bought some oak plywood to make a cabinet for it as well as DVD 'book' shelves for the back of the room so my priorities will be there for a while.
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post #99 of 4235 Old 01-14-2008, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Olson View Post

I just boosted the brightness a little and dialed down the color. I can't remember what gamma I am using but it looks rather good now, (like I said; rough! ).

I'll wait for the XD to arrive before I do anything else. I just got my Middle Atlantic frame and bought some oak plywood to make a cabinet for it as well as DVD 'book' shelves for the back of the room so my priorities will be there for a while.

I know the feeling. Presently construction is first priority over playing with the toys.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #100 of 4235 Old 01-16-2008, 04:07 PM
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My theater construction began yesterday and I have settled on (at least for this instant in time) the JVC RS2 and have a few questions:

Has anyone compared this PJ image quality with and without a processor (which one) and what kind of improvement did you see with the processor? One of the benefits of a processor would be unlimited imput sources and would then only need to run a single HDMI cable to the PJ but I would only consider this if it makes sense as far as improvingimage quality.

While I have a screen left over from my last theater (StudioTec 1.3 gain Stewart) that is 54 x 96, am actively considering a 2.3 screen of larger size. How large can I go and still have the brightness I desire (dedicated room with no windows or other ambient light source).

Any issues with image distortion depending upon PJ position relative to top of screen?

Is it true that it is best to mount the PJ as close to the screen as possible within the allowed distance for a particular screen size.
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post #101 of 4235 Old 01-16-2008, 04:45 PM
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You can fix the inaccurate JVC colors problem with the right VP. You can improve upon the deinterlacing and scaling done in the JVCs. You can add noise reductionj, yada, yada, yada, and provide switching for a large amount of sources and can dial in each source using input and output memories.

Mounting and distortions depend on how you mount. Stay with vertical offset ranges, get the lens absolutely parallel to the screen and centered left right.


The closer you place the projector to the screen re throw diastance, the brighter the image will be. The farther you mount it away, the better the black level will be. The longer the zoom you use, the more light the lens eats up decreasing brightness but since there is less light, improving the blacks.

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post #102 of 4235 Old 01-16-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

My theater construction began yesterday and I have settled on (at least for this instant in time) the JVC RS2 and have a few questions:

Has anyone compared this PJ image quality with and without a processor (which one) and what kind of improvement did you see with the processor? One of the benefits of a processor would be unlimited imput sources and would then only need to run a single HDMI cable to the PJ but I would only consider this if it makes sense as far as improvingimage quality.

While I have a screen left over from my last theater (StudioTec 1.3 gain Stewart) that is 54 x 96, am actively considering a 2.3 screen of larger size. How large can I go and still have the brightness I desire (dedicated room with no windows or other ambient light source).

Any issues with image distortion depending upon PJ position relative to top of screen?

Is it true that it is best to mount the PJ as close to the screen as possible within the allowed distance for a particular screen size.

I concur with Mark's comments. The goal is to use the image shift as little as possible.

I am currently in the process of hooking up a Lumagen Radiance to my RS2.
From a color standpoint, the Lumagen can do a great job with improving the RS2 image quality. The Lumagen will also do a better job than the RS2 with anything SD as they have the best scaling out there for VPs in its class. I have seen better SD quality improvement so far with DVD content in particular. I haven't tested out Satellite SD though and that is where I hope to get some extra image performance. The Radiance just implemented various noise reduction functions and I have not had a chance to look at that yet. So far I don't see any real difference in HD content between the Radiance and the RS2. They both look great. So that is my initial impression. I usually don't get magic vision when I buy something new and see improvement just because I bought it. Also, I bought the Radiance more for its other abilities than improving picture quality so I wasn't looking for drastic changes from that side, but I do see some improvement on the few things that I have fed it in SD. If you plan on going 2.35 in the future, the processor will come in handy as it will do a better job than the RS2 in that regard. The RS2 can do the stretch, but the implementation is useable but not nearly as ideal as the dedicated VP solution.

The RS2 will be plenty bright on the screen you have now. I am ultimately installing on a 10' wide 2.35 screen that is 1.35 gain. Initial tests in a light controlled batcave show that the RS2 has plenty of brightness for this size. I don't think that I would go larger than that unless I switched to the HP screen that has greater gain, which will not happen for me as my projector is ceiling mounted and I need an AT screen due to my giant speakers .

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post #103 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

While I have a screen left over from my last theater (StudioTec 1.3 gain Stewart) that is 54 x 96, am actively considering a 2.3 screen of larger size. How large can I go and still have the brightness I desire (dedicated room with no windows or other ambient light source).

Depends on what brightness you desire.

My RS2 is 18 ft away from 10 ft wide 2.40 SMX screen and for me, it is plenty bright. Then again, I've never been one for 'light cannon' output from a projector.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Any issues with image distortion depending upon PJ position relative to top of screen?

My pj is pretty close to the top of my screen, so I did have to use a lot of the image shift down via the knob. Image geometry, fortunately, remains as close to perfect as I can see. Distortion I have not seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Is it true that it is best to mount the PJ as close to the screen as possible within the allowed distance for a particular screen size.

One thing I noticed about the RS2's zoom is that it has huge range out. If I had it to do over, I might try and get the pj closer to the screen, but there is always that trade off. Right now the pj is above and behind all my seating areas which is nice because everything is out of sight, out of mind. That was the goal in my particular HT. I honestly don't see how anyone could mount a pj in the middle of the screen and be close to the screen and have it not be a visual distraction.

Cameron, if you're going to be using the Radience, you won't have to use the VStretch feature at all?

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post #104 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 08:37 AM
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Yeah I won't have to use VStretch at all with with Radiance. The Lumagen scaling is superior to the Gennum scaling and the user interface on the Radiance is better also. I can send the radiance one RS232 command to switch to the exact mode I want. Not so simple with the RS2. The nice thing is that you can do the VStretch without the Radiance if you need to. The implementation however is not as elegant or simple.

I am trying to figure out how high I want my 2.35 screen at this point. The higher, the less lens shift. I don't want the screen too high though. I know exactly where it would be with a 16:9 screen, but I still need to experiment with it to make sure it is just right for me.


Chris,

So what is the height of your ceiling and how far down is your 2.40?

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #105 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 08:47 AM
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On the subject of scaler/processors: The three that have been recommended to me are: DVDO, Crystalio and Radience: Is there a "cliff notes" version of the pluses and minuses of each I could find anywhere? Anyone done a comparison? And other than switching, how important is a scaler/processor for High Def?
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post #106 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 09:07 AM
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Chris,

My RS2 will be about 17.5' away from my 10' wide 2.35 screen so we have a similar setup. What actual screen material are you using?

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post #107 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Cameron, my ceiling is 9 ft. The top of screen is 87" off the floor and the center of the RS2 lens is at 97" off the floor. 10" higher.

So yep, I'm way off the ideal scenario, but it all seems to work out. I have a little bow on the bottom sides of the image, but I think it's a lens alignment thing
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post #108 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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The SMX perforated. I'm not sure what actual gain the material is, but compared to my Firehawk and with the RS2 projector, I prefer the SMX hands down.

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post #109 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

The SMX perforated. I'm not sure what actual gain the material is, but compared to my Firehawk and with the RS2 projector, I prefer the SMX hands down.

If it's the CineWeave, it's most likely 1.16 with a 6.5% openness.
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post #110 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I think it is the CineWeave. I knew it wasn't a real high gain screen. Acoustically, it's very transparent, it has no hotspotting and I'm back to seeing true whites now compared to the slightly yellowish whites with my Firehawk.

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post #111 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 11:14 AM
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Yeah mine is the Ultramatte 1.5 gain microperfed. It is the 1st gen microperf so it does have the propensity to exhibit moire in some situations. I am pretty sure the Panamorph will reduce that though as it does change the geometry of the pixel structure.

I have found that upgrading to the new microperf with the anti-moire pattern is a bit cost prohibitive.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #112 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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Yeah mine is the Ultramatte 1.5 gain microperfed. It is the 1st gen microperf so it does have the propensity to exhibit moire in some situations. I am pretty sure the Panamorph will reduce that though as it does change the geometry of the pixel structure.

I have found that upgrading to the new microperf with the anti-moire pattern is a bit cost prohibitive.

Check SmX. IMO, their woven screen is better acoustically than a perfed vinyl, can be skewed to eliminate any moire and it is worlds less $$$.
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post #113 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, I bought my SMX material raw and had a buddy make the frame and bezel. It went together a lot easier than I thought it would.

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post #114 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 12:03 PM
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Cameron...

I am curious how you made out finally with the Panamorph??

Have been thinking that I should ceiling mount one of the projectors here and have been distracted since coming back from CES. Was the problem with the plate not being sufficient and bending ??

Have to switch out projectors for customers and have been using a omnimount glass component shelf but most people come to see the RS1/2 anyway so figured I would get it airborne. In so doing I will have to make an articulating arm from my ceiling due to the "stuff" on the ceiling to center it 16" .. just a bit worried if the plate is wonky if I would be better off cutting my own plate with better materials? 16" doesnt sound like much but cantilevered it is quite a bit more stress. In any event I am interested how it worked out.

Will be getting in a Cary 11V to look at soon and will let you know how it compares to some of the other items mentioned.

Put some RS2's on stewart studiotek 130 at 10 ft wide with absolutely no issues.

The first projector seemed to lag for the first little bit on the auto lens shift but it was possibly still cold from the vehicle. All of a sudden it kicked in and no problems thereafter.

Would strongly recommend looking at the pixel adjustment as all so far have needed at least one color adjustment but was perfect after this.

Curious as to what gamma most of you selected to use or thought was the most accurate.

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post #115 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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just a bit worried if the plate is wonky if I would be better off cutting my own plate with better materials? 16" doesnt sound like much but cantilevered it is quite a bit more stress.

It is a little wonky. But only because of the heft of the lens/sled assembly.

It's not that the 'materials' aren't good. A thicker plate would probably do the trick and eliminate the plate from sagging, but then you would still have an odd stress back on the projector mount. Too much weight out front. I didn't much like the idea of the chain support thing at first, but it worked out pretty darn good. Solid as a rock now. I'll take a few pics tonight of my final setup and post them.

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post #116 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Check SmX. IMO, their woven screen is better acoustically than a perfed vinyl, can be skewed to eliminate any moire and it is worlds less $$$.

I might look into it, but I worry that the drop in gain will be too much for me.

Still I will consider it especially if there is any moire in my setup. There definitely isn't when I have the 16:9 image in the center, but I haven't used the panamorph setup with that screen yet.

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post #117 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 12:56 PM
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Mandarax,

Well there was more going on than just the plate bending, the whole projector twisted. I created a prototype solution that works and keeps it stable. + or _ 1/4 inch or less twist. I am pretty sure that when I do the actual setup there will be no difference. It does increase the complexity of the mount, but that is the price I have to pay to isolate the projector from the floor above. For most Panamorph installations on a ceiling, this wouldn't be an issue. I do have 5 pipes sticking out of the ceiling now instead of 1. I probably only need 3 but I put in two more just in case.

Other than that, I am very impressed with the panamorph combo! It looks great with the VStretch and I am also happy with what I have seen so far with the Radiance.

Auto lens shift?

I did a litle pixel shifting, but haven't focussed on MC much yet because there isn't anything that has popped out at me yet.

I have not played with the gamma yet as I was planning on messing with that more when I calibrate the sucker. I think I will probably start calibration sometime next week.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #118 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

It is a little wonky. But only because of the heft of the lens/sled assembly.

It's not that the 'materials' aren't good. A thicker plate would probably do the trick and eliminate the plate from sagging, but then you would still have an odd stress back on the projector mount. Too much weight out front. I didn't much like the idea of the chain support thing at first, but it worked out pretty darn good. Solid as a rock now. I'll take a few pics tonight of my final setup and post them.

Chris

If you were making a plate out of heavier steel you could counter balance it from the rear also. You would need to make sure your mount could handle all that extra weight.

Hanging the whole sucker up is now more like a 2 man job.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #119 of 4235 Old 01-17-2008, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cameron View Post

Hanging the whole sucker up is now more like a 2 man job.

You got that right!

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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post #120 of 4235 Old 01-18-2008, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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A pic of my chain setup. The 2 x 2 on the ceiling is glued and screwed thru the double drywall to hat channel above.
LL

My Home Theater is a work in progress.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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