BenQ W 5000 little Test - Page 173 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5161 of 5175 Old 09-18-2017, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Don't underestimate how much of a difference other attributes can make. I couldn't imagine going back to my W5000 after having my Planar 8150 or either of my JVCs.
I realize that but honestly I haven't really found anything yet that would justify all the trouble of installation work. I actually have Panasonic VT60 plasma too and while it has so much better contrast than W5000, picture is not that much better overall. Also my W5000 beats image quality of my local cinemas digital projectors any day, so that's why I've been waiting patiently.
I have checked few units during years but almost always they would have required serious adjustments in my living room (wrong throw ratio, no lens shift or too limited and so on). I have placed my W5000 on the top of the large cabinet so high that I need a lot of lens shift to get picture low enough. Also depth of that cabinet is limited and cannot be increased, so projector's depth has to be the same as W5000 or less. Lately I've been also seriously waiting for OLED flat screens improving and coming available bigger than 65" and they should be coming pretty soon (I just hope price will be reasonable, like in the smaller models today), so that would be a nice alternative for projector also.



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Wish mine would have lasted that long.
Mine has been incredible. By far the best projector I have ever owned, and I have had them so many in my life most of them costing many times more than this. This has been the cheapest, most reliable and the only one that I have been happy with image quality for long time. I used to update projectors before this even only after some months. Some units I kept couple years. Most of them had terrible problems in them from the beginning, and if not they developed one. This one was serviced only once.


I'm not saying another projector is out of the question but I have no idea what to even consider as replacement that would meet my requirements. Any suggestions?
Preferably DLP without costing arm and leg, and it should have about the same throw ratio as W5000 and lens shift should be able to place upper edge of the image at the same level as lens when unit is right side up.

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post #5162 of 5175 Old 09-18-2017, 01:28 AM
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Have you had it in for any service at all during the time you have owned it?

Only once. It developed that half picture vertical lines DLP board issue and it was fixed under warranty. It was somewhere around 2000-2500 hours. Now it has about 5600 total hours and it is on third bulb (bulbs seem to last forever in this unit, none blew and did not even get way too dim but of course new bulb made it shine every time like new).


I'm not totally giving up on my W5000 yet. I need to check it again with fresh eyes and make sure everything before throwing it away. One thing that come to my mind was that I need to make sure focus setting. I haven't touched if for many years as it has never needed fine tuning once set correctly. I have self made lens cap that I have learned to put on and take off without messing with the setting ever during all these years, but maybe that could have happened after all. Then again it does not explain why everything looks fine from 1-2 feet from screen but not from normal viewing distance...


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I wonder if the 4K Optomas have better contrast than the W5000?
I haven't seen that myself but from reading reviews of recent 4K DLP projectors, it looks like contrast ratios aren't really getting better, many are even worse.

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post #5163 of 5175 Old 09-18-2017, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
I'm not saying another projector is out of the question but I have no idea what to even consider as replacement that would meet my requirements. Any suggestions?
Preferably DLP without costing arm and leg, and it should have about the same throw ratio as W5000 and lens shift should be able to place upper edge of the image at the same level as lens when unit is right side up.
Honsetly, I can't see spending money on a DLP anymore, even though it's still my "favorite" technology. As you probably remember from the W5000 days, with DLP the picture performance really plateaus quickly, where you can spend a lot more for very, very little gain in picture. The W5000 was sort of at the knee in it's day, I think the knee is lower now. Unless you're going to spend something like $10k on a new 0.95" DC4 machine from DPI or maybe Vivitek, everything else is a 0.65" DMD with performance that's not a lot different from the W1070/1085 which is a <$1000 machine. DLP really seems to have given up the "high end" home theater market. Further, most tend to have pretty terrible installation flexibility.

Outside of DLP, installation flexibility is really not a problem.

Well a JVC would blow you away, there's some killer deals on B-stock units from AVS. They'd meet all your requirements except they're about 2" deeper than the W5000. I saw an Epson 5040 at a local dealer that looked nice, but that was just about a 30 second look, I didn't evaluate it or anything. But when you compare the W5000 to something 2-3x brighter and with 100 times the contrast, well...
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post #5164 of 5175 Old 09-19-2017, 08:15 PM
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I agree with stanger89.

I had been a longtime DLP fan, from the days it was actually competitive with contrast. After 7 good years with my Mits HC3800, I was looking for an upgrade and DLP has just gone absolutely nowhere. The HC3800 had been measured around 3000:1 native contrast, which was really good for a DLP. Most of the DLP's today (and recent past) in that price bracket measure much worse now.

I stepped up to a low hr used JVC RS57 (X700) and have been very pleased with the contrast and very low black floor performance. It's very quiet too. I did a rough side-by-side comparison of my HC3800 before selling it to a friend and on bright scenes, mixed scenes, it actually held up very well to the JVC. I'd even give the HC3800 a very slight edge in bright scene pop. Impossible to tell w/o a side-by-side otherwise.

But the blacks were just incredible. I had to now cover all my equip LED's up in my room. In a fade out to black it gets so black, that it seems like a black hole until your eyes adjust. This is way darker than a commercial theater. Even if some of the newer commercial theaters have better projectors with good contrast now, they still have to keep the runway lights and scones lit up on the walls so that people don't trip in the dark and sue them. So it will never get as black and dark there as it can with a JVC in your theater.

Surprisingly I didn't really see much of an improvement with shadow detail, other than it's just more black and less gray...but no extra detail.
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post #5165 of 5175 Old 09-19-2017, 08:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
I agree with stanger89.

I had been a longtime DLP fan, from the days it was actually competitive with contrast. After 7 good years with my Mits HC3800, I was looking for an upgrade and DLP has just gone absolutely nowhere. The HC3800 had been measured around 3000:1 native contrast, which was really good for a DLP. Most of the DLP's today (and recent past) in that price bracket measure much worse now.

I stepped up to a low hr used JVC RS57 (X700) and have been very pleased with the contrast and very low black floor performance. It's very quiet too. I did a rough side-by-side comparison of my HC3800 before selling it to a friend and on bright scenes, mixed scenes, it actually held up very well to the JVC. I'd even give the HC3800 a very slight edge in bright scene pop. Impossible to tell w/o a side-by-side otherwise.

But the blacks were just incredible. I had to now cover all my equip LED's up in my room. In a fade out to black it gets so black, that it seems like a black hole until your eyes adjust. This is way darker than a commercial theater. Even if some of the newer commercial theaters have better projectors with good contrast now, they still have to keep the runway lights and scones lit up on the walls so that people don't trip in the dark and sue them. So it will never get as black and dark there as it can with a JVC in your theater.

Surprisingly I didn't really see much of an improvement with shadow detail, other than it's just more black and less gray...but no extra detail.
The JVC 1080p projectors are notorious for crushing digital 17 with regular out of the box settings, which is the first step out of black encoded in the Blu-rays we watch. This means that without a proper calibration these JVCs actually have fairly poor shadow detail performance. If you get a chance, you should have a professional come out to calibrate your X700. It will help tremendously in this regard by fixing the crush problem. From what I've read, it seems their new native 4K projector doesn't seem to have this issue out of the box, so I suppose it might be possible this issue will be a thing of a past on any subsequent native 4K projectors from JVC, but of course we'll have to see if they continue this trend first.
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post #5166 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
I realize that but honestly I haven't really found anything yet that would justify all the trouble of installation work. I actually have Panasonic VT60 plasma too and while it has so much better contrast than W5000, picture is not that much better overall. Also my W5000 beats image quality of my local cinemas digital projectors any day, so that's why I've been waiting patiently.
I have checked few units during years but almost always they would have required serious adjustments in my living room (wrong throw ratio, no lens shift or too limited and so on). I have placed my W5000 on the top of the large cabinet so high that I need a lot of lens shift to get picture low enough. Also depth of that cabinet is limited and cannot be increased, so projector's depth has to be the same as W5000 or less. Lately I've been also seriously waiting for OLED flat screens improving and coming available bigger than 65" and they should be coming pretty soon (I just hope price will be reasonable, like in the smaller models today), so that would be a nice alternative for projector also.



Mine has been incredible. By far the best projector I have ever owned, and I have had them so many in my life most of them costing many times more than this. This has been the cheapest, most reliable and the only one that I have been happy with image quality for long time. I used to update projectors before this even only after some months. Some units I kept couple years. Most of them had terrible problems in them from the beginning, and if not they developed one. This one was serviced only once.


I'm not saying another projector is out of the question but I have no idea what to even consider as replacement that would meet my requirements. Any suggestions?
Preferably DLP without costing arm and leg, and it should have about the same throw ratio as W5000 and lens shift should be able to place upper edge of the image at the same level as lens when unit is right side up.
I'm a huge DLP fan. Just like most here, I've been hoping that TI would step up to the plate and make DLP competitive at 4K. I've been tempted many times by the JVCs, but so far, I've resisted.
Years ago, we had a couple of different Benqs. FWIW, we also have a Panasonic VT60 series plasma as our daytime display (kindred soles).
Our FP is the Sharp XV-Z30000. If you like your Benq and want to ride out the DLP "transition" to 4K, I can not recommend it highly enough. They are getting difficult to find, but do they turn up in the classified and ebay from time to time. If you find one for <$2K, check it out.
My $.02.
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post #5167 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 11:24 AM
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I can’t quite identify with the fascination with/attachment to DLP in the current landscape. I used to be very pleased with my BenQ W20000 DLP that was basically state of the art in 2008, with an original retail price of over 7000 USD (I got it cheaper when it was phased out 2009).

I used it for almost a decade up until this year and thought that image quality in general couldn’t be improved much without going broke; the BenQ threw a very sharp and balanced picture - I thought perhaps that 4K would tighten and resolve a bit more, but not enough to warrant a new installation.

Then I demoed and directly compared Epsons 5040 (LCD) and JVCs RS400 (DLA) versus my BenQ and there was no contest. Both of them right now are half the retail price of the 2008 BenQ but exceeds it an every way, and that’s just 1080. In a light controlled room, the JVC in 4K with properly set HDR is better than any public cinema I have ever been to and almost on pair with contrast and blackness found on OLED tv:s

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
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post #5168 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The JVC 1080p projectors are notorious for crushing digital 17 with regular out of the box settings, which is the first step out of black encoded in the Blu-rays we watch. This means that without a proper calibration these JVCs actually have fairly poor shadow detail performance. If you get a chance, you should have a professional come out to calibrate your X700. It will help tremendously in this regard by fixing the crush problem. From what I've read, it seems their new native 4K projector doesn't seem to have this issue out of the box, so I suppose it might be possible this issue will be a thing of a past on any subsequent native 4K projectors from JVC, but of course we'll have to see if they continue this trend first.
I've been keeping an eye out for a Spyder4 so that I can do the JVC autocalibrate....mostly to do the gamma calibration as mine surely has the gamma droop at 800hrs now. In the meantime I've had to use a lower gamma preset (like 2.2 or 2.1), plus kick the dark gamma adjustment up like +2 on all colors--both of which increased my shadow detail and helped the black crush quite a bit, as it was really bad when I got it at 580hrs on the PJ. Doing those adjustments, while helping a LOT, just brought the shadow detail perf up to the level of my HC3800 (which was dialed in pretty good with gamma too).

The HC3800 was known to have pretty good shadow detail perf, do you think the RS57 is capable of better?

Will a Spyder and JVC autocalibrate fix the shadow detail to the level of a pro? Not that interested in a color calibrate, as I'm pretty happy with colors as they are. But maybe that will effect shadows too?

I've heard about the digital 17 issue with JVC's....but did not know this could be calibrated for? Seemed everything I've read was that it was just a thing with these JVC's and to not worry about it that much.

??
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post #5169 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
I
Our FP is the Sharp XV-Z30000. If you like your Benq and want to ride out the DLP "transition" to 4K, I can not recommend it highly enough. They are getting difficult to find, but do they turn up in the classified and ebay from time to time. If you find one for <$2K, check it out.
My $.02.
I snagged my JVC RS57/X700 for $2k on ebay. It had 580hrs on the original lamp and came with an additional new OEM lamp in a sealed box.

The RS57 was a $7k (actually $8k) listed price PJ when new 3-4 years ago, so I certainly got a deal. Was looking for X500/RS4910/RS49's actually at that $2k price point, but just got lucky with mine probably cos the seller listed it only as an RS57....he should have put 'X700' in the title too.
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post #5170 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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I can’t quite identify with the fascination with/attachment to DLP in the current landscape. I used to be very pleased with my BenQ W20000 DLP that was basically state of the art in 2008, with an original retail price of over 7000 USD (I got it cheaper when it was phased out 2009).

I used it for almost a decade up until this year and thought that image quality in general couldn’t be improved much without going broke; the BenQ threw a very sharp and balanced picture - I thought perhaps that 4K would tighten and resolve a bit more, but not enough to warrant a new installation.

Then I demoed and directly compared Epsons 5040 (LCD) and JVCs RS400 (DLA) versus my BenQ and there was no contest. Both of them right now are half the retail price of the 2008 BenQ but exceeds it an every way, and that’s just 1080. In a light controlled room, the JVC in 4K with properly set HDR is better than any public cinema I have ever been to and almost on pair with contrast and blackness found on OLED tv:s
I can sumarize my DLP faination in one word: "Sports".
The native sharpness/motion handling, in combination with a Darbee (and a DaLite HP) make live sports almost like being "there". If you watch a lot of dark content (ie SciFi movies), the LCOS (JVC & Sony) beat DLP in spades. However, most of our movies are brighter content and we tend to watch a lot of sports. DLP still does it for us.
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post #5171 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 06:18 PM
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I can sumarize my DLP faination in one word: "Sports".
The native sharpness/motion handling, in combination with a Darbee (and a DaLite HP) make live sports almost like being "there". If you watch a lot of dark content (ie SciFi movies), the LCOS (JVC & Sony) beat DLP in spades. However, most of our movies are brighter content and we tend to watch a lot of sports. DLP still does it for us.
I still have yet to identify a difference in motion between my Planar 8150 and RS600. DLP's got some great attributes, uniformity, stability, etc, if they'd only bring tandem DMDs to the consumer market (and if they could manage it at "reasonable" prices) they could wipe the floor with LCoS. In the mean time, I find DLP's benefits to be fleeting to non-existent in bright content, and the limitations are obvious when things get darker.
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post #5172 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 06:44 PM
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I still have yet to identify a difference in motion between my Planar 8150 and RS600. DLP's got some great attributes, uniformity, stability, etc, if they'd only bring tandem DMDs to the consumer market (and if they could manage it at "reasonable" prices) they could wipe the floor with LCoS. In the mean time, I find DLP's benefits to be fleeting to non-existent in bright content, and the limitations are obvious when things get darker.
Stranger89,
I can not recall if you have had a Sharp Z30K? The smooth dynamic iris takes the black and detail to a new level, for DLP (HT humor ).
Jason (Zombie) still has one in his multi PJ stack. Last time he talked about it, he was still using it for day to day TV and 3D.
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post #5173 of 5175 Old 09-20-2017, 06:48 PM
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post #5174 of 5175 Old 09-23-2017, 07:26 AM
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Honsetly, I can't see spending money on a DLP anymore, even though it's still my "favorite" technology. As you probably remember from the W5000 days, with DLP the picture performance really plateaus quickly, where you can spend a lot more for very, very little gain in picture. The W5000 was sort of at the knee in it's day, I think the knee is lower now. Unless you're going to spend something like $10k on a new 0.95" DC4 machine from DPI or maybe Vivitek, everything else is a 0.65" DMD with performance that's not a lot different from the W1070/1085 which is a <$1000 machine. DLP really seems to have given up the "high end" home theater market. Further, most tend to have pretty terrible installation flexibility.

Outside of DLP, installation flexibility is really not a problem.

Well a JVC would blow you away, there's some killer deals on B-stock units from AVS. They'd meet all your requirements except they're about 2" deeper than the W5000. I saw an Epson 5040 at a local dealer that looked nice, but that was just about a 30 second look, I didn't evaluate it or anything. But when you compare the W5000 to something 2-3x brighter and with 100 times the contrast, well...
It definitely seems that there are very few reasonable priced DLP's today offering lens shift with decent adjustment range and the fact that even "4K" machines are using gimmicks to produce 4K image. Many times I've been considering those DILA based units and their variants but I'm sure all panel alignment, aging, rising black level and all sort of issues there are will drive me nuts.


I will see later if I can find out what's wrong with my DLP and if nothing is improved, I'll have to reconsider those DILA based units again. I'm really hoping it would because I was hoping this one would last until very big OLED's became available at reasonable price.
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post #5175 of 5175 Old 09-23-2017, 01:13 PM
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Many times I've been considering those DILA based units and their variants but I'm sure all panel alignment, aging, rising black level and all sort of issues there are will drive me nuts.
Panel alignment> For sure I don't have perfect convergence on my JVC, but my JVC has a WAY better lens than my Mits HC3800 DLP. With the Mits, I had pretty bad focus uniformity across the screen. Had to choose what part of the screen I wanted to be in focus (chose the center of course). I'd say my Mits could only have about a 1/3 of my screen in focus, while with the JVC it is WAY better....perhaps in the 90%+ range (honestly didn't try to look at every pixel to find out).
So perfect convergence on the DLP with a cheaper lens, vs worse convergence but way better lens on the JVC = about the same 'apparent' sharpness between them.

I'm sure a higher end .95" single chip DLP with a better lens could do better of course.

Rising black level> This doesn't appear to be an issue with JVC's.

Sure, there are pros/cons to each....but right now I can't go back to DLP as that tech stands right now. Once you go black, you don't go back!
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