BenQ W 5000 little Test - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 5147 Old 01-16-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple View Post

In talking with my contact he mentioned that the user can do the firmware upgrade but he might be only talking about the W5000/W20000.

If you could confirm that next time you are talking to your contact, it would be greatly appreciated. User upgradeable firmware is always a big plus in my book. The RS232 port on the back of the W20000 certainly means that it's a possibility.
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post #182 of 5147 Old 01-18-2008, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple View Post

I think I just talked to your contact...

He is fixing the site today and told me that the W5000 has DC2 and the W10000 has DC3.

Can someone elaborate on the implications of the W5000 being DC2?
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post #183 of 5147 Old 01-18-2008, 10:31 AM
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DC2 (DarkChip 2) is an older (3+ years) DLP chip technology that has approximatly 30% lower native contrast than DC3. DC4 is the latest and greatest and claims to be 30% better than DC3. DC4 is currently only shipping in the Marantz VP11-S2 and the Sim2 C3X 1080, which are $15,000 and $32,000 respectively. DC4 should become more widely available by end of summer.
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post #184 of 5147 Old 01-21-2008, 11:30 AM
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F300V10- thanks for the info.

So my remaining question - is the W5000 completely out of consideration for many people here for being DC2, and does any 1080P unit anywhere near this price range have DC3?
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post #185 of 5147 Old 01-21-2008, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emailists View Post

F300V10- thanks for the info.

So my remaining question - is the W5000 completely out of consideration for many people here for being DC2, and does any 1080P unit anywhere near this price range have DC3?

I don't think anyone should discount the W5000 strictly on the basis that it's DC2. I believe that with the Samsung SP-A800B, Joe Kane specified a DC2 versus a DC3 because he felt it had better shadow detail. The Optoma HD80 still uses a DC2, and for its price has been generally well accepted.

For me, though, the seemingly small price differential to the W20000 makes it a very tempting alternative to the W5000. I'm close to discounting the W5000 on the basis that there's something (hopefully) significantly better for not too much more of my hard earned cash.
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post #186 of 5147 Old 01-21-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emailists View Post

F300V10- thanks for the info.

So my remaining question - is the W5000 completely out of consideration for many people here for being DC2, and does any 1080P unit anywhere near this price range have DC3?

I personally don't care if it's super duper black hole chip 5. I am no longer considering the 5k based upon it's poor contrast performance.

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post #187 of 5147 Old 01-21-2008, 01:23 PM
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Is this decision based upon the performance of one sample?

Mattias Ohlson
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post #188 of 5147 Old 01-21-2008, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

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Is this decision based upon the performance of one sample?

I guess I should have elaborated, Mattias.

At this point yes, just one sample.

As a buyer, I'm allowed to change my mind if we find out that sample is defective.

If typical performance includes native contrast of 2,500:1 at 250 lumens or better for either the 5k or 20k, they'll definitely be back on the list for consideration.

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post #189 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

I personally don't care if it's super duper black hole chip 5. I am no longer considering the 5k based upon it's poor contrast performance.

I think there has been some re-evaluation lately and the 'very affordable' projector does not seem to be such a good deal for many after all. It's probably just a matter of realism taking over again.

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post #190 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 02:38 AM
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What the heck... just read the thread...

No one baised on these reviews should buy the 5K.

Better off getting an Lcos/LCD

I"m going to wait for reviews of the 20K

If just as bad, looks like I am going to get the 10K
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post #191 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

What the heck... just read the thread...

No one baised on these reviews should by the 5K.

Better off getting an Lcos/LCD

I"m going to wait for reviews of the 20K

If just as bad, looks like I am going to get the 10K

Join the club.

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post #192 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 09:03 AM
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I keep seeing references to measurements/tests other than javierg's, but I can't find them, anybody care to point me to them?

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post #193 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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W Meyer's numbers are in the first post of this thread.

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post #194 of 5147 Old 01-22-2008, 04:16 PM
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Now how did I miss that... Must have forgotten reading that

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post #195 of 5147 Old 01-29-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manos_kastr View Post

Merry Christmas from Greece.
I have the new projector from BENQ but until now i do not calibrated it. The image looks better than W10000 and 9000.
I will see the issue about the 24fps . I use the PIONEER LX70, PS3, LG110 and HTPC.
The color wheel change from 2 to 3x (2x,2.5x,3x).

I post some pic from the secret menu.

Geia sou Mano,

I am also interested in the W5000/W20000 but i'd definitely need to be able to access the ISF and Service Menu myself.

Can you tell us the way to access the ISF and Service Menus?

Thanks.
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post #196 of 5147 Old 01-29-2008, 06:15 AM
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Only an ISFer can access the ISF settngs.
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post #197 of 5147 Old 01-29-2008, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-Greece View Post

Can you tell us the way to access the ISF and Service Menus?

I'm also very interested in the ISF-password for the W5000. If somebody knows, please post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

Only an ISFer can access the ISF settngs.

Who cares? There is nothing special about those settings. For a lot of projectors the password is known and spread thru the forums.

Michael
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post #198 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 02:00 PM
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As much as I would love to go with a BenQ, if the sample used for the tests here is what the final will spec out as, it doesn't seem worth it.

The Epson UB really seems to have set the bar for the $2999 mark, and anyone offering less contrast and poorer black performance at this price point just seems doomed.

I know there are folks out there who like to avoid LCD like the plague (and since going DLP I'm one of them), but the reviews of the UB make it very hard to ignore.
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post #199 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_LA View Post

As much as I would love to go with a BenQ, if the sample used for the tests here is what the final will spec out as, it doesn't seem worth it.

The Epson UB really seems to have set the bar for the $2999 mark, and anyone offering less contrast and poorer black performance at this price point just seems doomed.

You could say the same thing about anything vs the RS1 too, but the RS1 didn't kill anything off. The VW50 still sold/sells well, the Sharp 20k, BenQ W10K, and a number of other DLPs still sold well even though the RS1 slaughtered most everything in CR/black level.

CR isn't the only thing that goes into a good image, I suspect the W5000 would be chosen over the UB for the same reasons one would pick a Sharp 20k over the RS1.

Plus we've seen such drastically different measurements it's impossible to draw any conclusions (seen from 4500:1 to 2500:1 with DI and open IRIS), plus some of the measurements are just perplexing, 600:1 On/Off native for even a DC2 DLP is very odd, Jason's review and my own measurements of the DC2 IN76 are at least twice that.

And I don't mean to pick on anyone in this thread, I greatly appreciate their input but with only two data points, and drastically different results at that, we can't even spot a trend.

Quote:


I know there are folks out there who like to avoid LCD like the plague (and since going DLP I'm one of them), but the reviews of the UB make it very hard to ignore.

It's great for an LCD, but I guess I just don't see what the excitement is about it. Sure it's broken new ground for an LCD, but it's only just caught up to the other technologies.

And by the way, where are all the W5000s and W20000s? Do you have to join a secret society to get one? They're available in CA and the EU, and can be ordered in the US (don't know if they're shipping) I'd expect to see more reviews of them. I can't hardly sit still, I just want confirmation that the W20000 is at least as good as the W10000 and I think I'm buying one.

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post #200 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 03:35 PM
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I'd be very curious to know WHY people who could afford an RS-1 would have gone with another unit, considering every review on the planet pretty much said it was the best projector ever. Have any of the others continued to sell well AFTER the RS-1 was launched?

And I think the UB is a big deal because the reviews have said it essentially offers RS-1 performance at half the price. And saying it's only "caught up" to other technologies isn't strictly true when the ONLY other projector our there that matches it's black levels is the RS-1.

The UB has essentially leapfrogged over pretty much every DLP out there. If the BenQ 5000 is a darkchip 2, I just don't see how it's going to compete.

Despite my enthusuasm for the UB, I'd still prefer similar performance (at a similar price) from an XSRD or DLP; despite it's advancements, the UB is still reported to have color uniformity issues and a few other bits and pieces that have marred the history of LCD.

But someone still has to RELEASE such a model!
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post #201 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 04:03 PM
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In terms of black levels, Art's review of the 1080UB seems to have the rankings as RS2>RS1>VW60>VW50/Epson>DLPs.

So it might be worth looking at the VW60 or even the VW40.

Of course, if you were one of those who jumped on the $2999 RS1s here yesterday then you'd be laughing.

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post #202 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_LA View Post

I'd be very curious to know WHY people who could afford an RS-1 would have gone with another unit, considering every review on the planet pretty much said it was the best projector ever. Have any of the others continued to sell well AFTER the RS-1 was launched?

I assume so, it seems like there are plenty of happy Sony owners/buyers. Likewise with DLP.

The RS1 was something because it broke new ground in native On/Off contrast. But it's not perfect (nor is any PJ/technology), color accuracy, ANSI/simultaneous contrast, and lack of aspect ratio controls for HD sources are notable areas where the RS1 is bested by other machines.

Quote:


And I think the UB is a big deal because the reviews have said it essentially offers RS-1 performance at half the price. And saying it's only "caught up" to other technologies isn't strictly true when the ONLY other projector our there that matches it's black levels is the RS-1.

I think Jason said the 1080UB hits about 10k:1 On/Off, that's less than the RS1, and on par with the Sony SXRD machines. And the numbers I've seen have placed the UB's native CR in the 3k:1 area, or, again similar to SXRD machines. And then there's DLPs, which can easily go into the 5-8k:1 range native, and one of the measurements here put's the W5000 (using DI) into the 10k:1 area. Like I said, the UB breaks ground for LCD, doubling CR performance, but that just catches it up with SXRD, LCoS, and DLP.

Of course the simple fact is there's nothing that matches the RS1's native contrast, period.

Quote:


The UB has essentially leapfrogged over pretty much every DLP out there.

How is that? It's caught LCD up to the CR performance of DLP, at least in On/Off (sans DI), but I don't think it's a match for DLP's simultaneous CR. Now catching DLP in native CR is nothing to sneeze at, but that's only one of many performance parameters. There's always uniformity, panel alignment, and the other LCD properties. Oh, and the W5000 has HQV processing, vertical stretch. And again, we've seen measurements of the W5000 @ 10000:1 On/Off, and that's about what the UB is reported to do.

Quote:


If the BenQ 5000 is a darkchip 2, I just don't see how it's going to compete.

The same way DLP always competes with other technologies. The same way the Sharp 20k competes with the RS1.

Quote:


Despite my enthusuasm for the UB, I'd still prefer similar performance (at a similar price) from an XSRD or DLP; despite it's advancements, the UB is still reported to have color uniformity issues and a few other bits and pieces that have marred the history of LCD.

There you go, perfect explanation for why the UB isn't the undisputed king, and in your own words

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post #203 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

In terms of black levels, Art's review of the 1080UB seems to have the rankings as RS2>RS1>VW60>VW50/Epson>DLPs.

From the front page of Art's UB review:

Best in class black levels - superior to any sub-$3000 projector I've seen yet, and better than most under twice that price.

Since we're talking about direct competition for the UB (i.e. the BenQ 5000), the others don't count here.

The point of my questions and observations is to wonder what does/will beat or match the Epson UB AT IT'S PRICE POINT.

The new Sony VW40 does seem like it's going to be a front-runner (since it most likely shares many, if not all, it's components with previous models) and the BenQ 5000 - the jury seems very much to be out on that one. Throw as many irises as you want at it, it's still a Darkchip 2.

The BenQ 8720 uses irises and is a darkchip 3 and Art says the Epson blows it away for black levels.
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post #204 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_LA View Post

the BenQ 5000 - the jury seems very much to be out on that one. Throw as many irises as you want at it, it's still a Darkchip 2.

Nobody's really seen it yet though.

Quote:


The BenQ 8720 uses irises and is a darkchip 3 and Art says the Epson blows it away for black levels.

But the 8720 doesn't have Dynamic Black (dynamic iris).

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post #205 of 5147 Old 01-30-2008, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_LA View Post

The BenQ 8720 uses irises and is a darkchip 3 and Art says the Epson blows it away for black levels.

Maybe for on/off contrast, but what about the all important ansi contrast, shadow details? I doubt it blew the 8720 away on that.

If he did say that, please post the link here, thanks.
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post #206 of 5147 Old 01-31-2008, 02:27 AM
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^^

Here, here... This is the critical point.
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post #207 of 5147 Old 01-31-2008, 05:27 AM
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Well, not to be a jerk, but Art's overall opinion on a product is only as good as the Absolute Black Level gets.

Get something with major flaws in color,sharpness, uniformity problems but have a black level twice as good as the RS2 and he'll claim its the greatest projector on the market.

He takes nothing else into consideration. (For his favorite pick)
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post #208 of 5147 Old 01-31-2008, 05:33 AM
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Example, He states that he is not really effected by RBE on High-End DLP's.

Between the RS1 and Sharp 20K, he in the end still choose the RS1 as the winner because of price at that time... Because "With performance every bit the equal (but slightly different, naturally) to the Sharp, it sells for significantly less (that can always change of course)." -Art


Lets forget about Sharpness, Image Depth, White field Uniformity / Uniformity in general, Accurate colors, size of the projector, better optics, almost no CA.

I can keep going if you want me to.

Ok, let me not forget to say the RS1 have better throw and lens shift.
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post #209 of 5147 Old 01-31-2008, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Well, not to be a jerk, but Art's overall opinion on a product is only as good as the Absolute Black Level gets.

This is why I put less stock into Art's reviews. I'm still very pleased with my Infocus X1; I can see that it's not throwing an absolute black if I sit back and look. But the contrast (whatever it may be) is such that in comparison to the white/light colours, it looks pretty black in relation.

Absolute specs don't do it for me; you need to take the whole picture into account. The two samples of W5000 we've heard about so far are not yet enough to discount it IMHO.
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post #210 of 5147 Old 01-31-2008, 05:54 AM
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If I find out that I am not going to get eyestrain and see rbe for most of a movie from the Sharp 20K, thats the projector I am going to get, because it has the best all around performance. Not just absolute black.

Still waiting for the W20000 review as that is one that has the potential to beat the sharp.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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