BenQ W 5000 little Test - AVS Forum
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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i got today the w 5000 form benq.

i make a short test because this pr. can be the first pr. that have enough
light, good color and full hd for little money.

reason i test it was not to use this pr. for "my" home cinema since i have a full hd 3 chip dlp with xenon lamp but for other people that wait
for a nice buy and for 3d use.

there are a lot of people in each contry that now like to replace the
3d silde pr. with a digital pr. and because the need 2 pr. to
make 3d the price is a very important issue.

that pr. must be bright because the polarizer filter that
you need for 3d drop almost 70% light and lcos or lcd pr.
often can not be used together with such polorizer filter.

after i did some adjustments for color and all the other things
i found about 4500:1 cr.with auto iris on at very nice colors.
(manual iris full open to get max. light out).

the light out was about 1000 lumen with good colors and thats a big surprise.
(1 lamp hour)
many other pr. for double the price or more have half of that.
may you loose again 10% light when you like to calibrate the colors
very accurate but still than its a bright pr.

the pr. take 24p from the ps3 without any problem.
can not see any rainbow at 24p.

the pr. is not small but very quiet.

summary is that this pr. is a very good and cheap buy that is very bright thanks to new lamp and dlp technology.

i hate screen shots but here is one.


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Old 12-19-2007, 12:44 PM
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Hi Mayer

Wow looks very nice. A few questions typical of auto iris.
Can you see it working?
Do you notice any brightness compression.
Does it effect ANSI contrast?
What is the on/off with iris and without iris.

Thank you.
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Old 12-19-2007, 01:15 PM
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Thanks for the info. I'm wondering if the dynamic iris for this machine also does gamma correction as the iris closes, or if it just dims the image. I probably won't be getting to see this projector for a while, but it would be great if somebody could test this.

The way I would start to test is by using a 20 IRE (or 20% stim) window on a black background (many test discs have this kind of image). I would measure the light level for the 20% part of this window in the dynamic iris turned off and iris open mode, dynamic iris turned off and iris closed down mode, then dynamic iris turned on with iris allowed to go all the way open mode. If the dynamic iris system is doing gamma adjustment like I think it should, the 20% part should be about the same number of ft-lamberts in dynamic iris mode as iris open without dynamic iris mode, even though the iris should be shut down a fair amount. I would also measure the 100 IRE or 100% stim window and full screen in different modes for comparison.

Basically, I don't think a dynamic iris system that just dims the image is all that useful and am hoping they do the dual modulation that companies like Sony use, which increases the simultaneous contrast ratio in very dark images with some stuff at low IREs and nothing at high IREs, by decreasing the absolute black level while at the same time keeping other low IREs at around the same light output level as without the dynamic iris enabled.

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Old 12-19-2007, 01:26 PM
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Hi, tks for the new, is the pj already on the market? and you it's quiet, do you think it can be standing over the vision point witout creating disturb?
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Old 12-19-2007, 01:39 PM
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Darin

Do you know if the Sonys are doing dynamic gamma?

Thanks!
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Old 12-19-2007, 02:03 PM
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W.Mayer,
or anyone who knows; is the W5000 HDMI 1.3?
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Old 12-19-2007, 02:10 PM
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W.Mayer
When will consumers be able to buy a W5000 in Germany?
Will the price be comparable with W9000?
Great news about the new lamp.

Mattias Ohlson
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Old 12-19-2007, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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i am sick and cant test more so far.

questions from alan and darin can take some time sorry.

hope the next few days i can look into the pr. again.

the pr. is already in germany at the marktet but in very very little
numbers.
the sales it here for 3500 euro but you in us
normally pay the same in $
i hear that end of this week the next shipment will go to dealers.

may the high light out is because of the new lamp tech. "unishape"
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:56 PM
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The W5000 is HDMI 1.2
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Do you know if the Sonys are doing dynamic gamma?

Yes, they do. They have to trade off how agressive they are with brightness compression it can cause, but are definitely compensating for the iris closing down to some degree. If a projector doesn't do dual modulation (adjust the gamma as the iris closes) then they don't have to worry about brightness compression, but then they have to worry about causing flickering type effects and a dynamic iris seems like mostly a waste without the gamma adjustment, to me. It would give a deeper blackout (absolute black), but wouldn't increase the simultaneous CR in darker images at all compared to just having the iris shut down. And objects that are supposed to be 1/4th as bright as reference white would be way dimmer than that when the iris closes down. I haven't measured any of the new Sonys for this, but suspect that that don't totally compensate for the iris closing down, so instead of 1/4th as bright they might be 1/6th as bright (just using an example), but without dual modulation they would be about 1/12th as bright as reference white, if the iris is shutting white down by 3x.

Basically, other than adjustments to try to avoid too much brightness compression, when the iris shuts down by 3x, items that should be 1/4th as bright as white should be gamma corrected up 3x to compensate for the down 3x from the iris, arriving back at 1/4th of reference white, but with an absolute black level that is 3 times as dark (so 3x the contrast ratio between that item at 1/4th of reference white, and absolute black). Gets a little more complicated with washout effects characterized best by ANSI CR, but the general idea is that 1/3 * 3/1 = 1. Or dual modulation: Increase one by the same ratio the other is decreasing it, to get back where you started for that one item. Of course, absolute black shouldn't be gamma corrected, just things encoded above absolute black.

--Darin

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Old 12-20-2007, 12:49 AM
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Hello W.Mayer,

as the first users in Switzerland and Germany are reporting, that 24p out of HD-XE1 and HD-A35 are not working with the W5000, can you verify this ?

Do you have a HD-DVD player ?

What was the setting of your PS3 ? Auto or forced 24p ?

Would be great to know, because no Auto 24p support would be a real dealbreaker. Not all Blu-Ray and no HD-DVD player can be set to forced 24p.

HD-EP35 & PS3 & (soon to be) Regionfree Oppo BD-93. 148 : 481
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Old 12-20-2007, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenous View Post

Hello W.Mayer,

as the first users in Switzerland and Germany are reporting, that 24p out of HD-XE1 and HD-A35 are not working with the W5000, can you verify this ?

Do you have a HD-DVD player ?

What was the setting of your PS3 ? Auto or forced 24p ?

Would be great to know, because no Auto 24p support would be a real dealbreaker. Not all Blu-Ray and no HD-DVD player can be set to forced 24p.


yes i have a xe1 player and i will try it asap.
i drive the ps3 in 24p "forced".

i already complain toshiba germany why the not
have a forced 24p mode inside because many pr. and displays have this problem and it is so easy how the ps3 solve it.
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:10 AM
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Ravenous,

Were you the guy at beissamen who did the W5000 v TW2000 review?

If so, could you answer a couple of questions as Babelfish isn't brilliant with technology?

If not, someone in Germany has your name.



My questions are about absolute black level between the two, and brightness of the Epson.

My impression is that the Epson has deeper blacks, but is very dim to get those blacks.
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:27 AM
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Thats me, i'm the guy

Your impressions are right.

Absolute black level was visibly darker on the TW2000 but on cost of overall brightness.

The Benq image is sharper and more vivid.

Feel free to ask.

HD-EP35 & PS3 & (soon to be) Regionfree Oppo BD-93. 148 : 481
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:44 AM
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does it look like it has the Unishape type of lamp ? 1000lumens at "gd colors" is A LOT !
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:52 AM
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Excellent news, Wolfgang.

I too would be interested in native contrast and brightness numbers, both iris open and iris closed. 4500:1 dynamic doesn't seem very good for DLP Especially considering the previous generation W10000 has been measured in the 4,000:1 range (from memory) without dynamic iris.

Darin:
The literature on the W5000 indicates it uses TI's Dynamic Black. Do you know if RPTVs with the same system do dynamic gamma? That might be a good indication of whether the W5000 does.

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Old 12-20-2007, 08:11 AM
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I have a DLP RPTV with Dynamic Black, and it is very transparent in its operation. I don't see objects dimming and brightening and I have looked for any side effects that DI would bring. On very rare occasion I can see the black level raise and lower as the iris operates, but most of the time I never know it is there. I also think the TI's implementation is not as aggressive as other makes, hence the higher absolute black level when compared to the Epson.

As far as the W5000 just exceeding W10000 CR numbers, keep in mind the W5000 is around 1/3 the original street price of the W10000. The W20000 will be the one to compare to the W10000. The W5000 is in line with the Optima HD80 price wise, with 2 to 3 times the CR, and vertical lens shift. A DLP with a CR of 4500 with 1000 lumens for this kind of money is amazing. And the CR would likely go higher if the manual iris is stopped down and you don't need full light output. Wolfgang states his CR was taken with the manual iris wide open.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:16 AM
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What is the US release date and MSRP?
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

As far as the W5000 just exceeding W10000 CR numbers, keep in mind the W5000 is around 1/3 the original street price of the W10000. The W20000 will be the one to compare to the W10000. The W5000 is in line with the Optima HD80 price wise, with 2 to 3 times the CR, and vertical lens shift.

I understand the originial price differential, but the current street price is pretty close, and my impression is the W9000 is in the 3,500:1 range, so my comment about minimal improvement due to DI still stands.

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Old 12-20-2007, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

and my impression is the W9000 is in the 3,500:1 range,

I measured my W9000 as app. 2'500:1 with the iris fully open and app. 4'500:1 with it fully closed.

While in general I found the W9000 to be a good value for the money, I am somewhat dissatisfied with the general black level, both within the content and visible through 2.25 film bars.

So judging from this, the W5000 probably has some advances in brightness and other areas, but unfortunately (maybe) not much in black level.

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Old 12-20-2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P View Post

What is the US release date and MSRP?

The est. given by BenQ and other sources is Mid to late Jan. release in the states. I'm uncertain of MSRP. I would love to have firm release date and price at this time...so if anyone can add some info. it is appreciated.

I called AVS and they will not be carrying this model of BenQ. It would appear BenQ has specific lines that retailers can carry...the W5000 will not be one of them.

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Old 12-20-2007, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

I understand the originial price differential, but the current street price is pretty close, and my impression is the W9000 is in the 3,500:1 range, so my comment about minimal improvement due to DI still stands.

Not at 1000 lumens.
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:25 AM
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This projector looks very interesting. I'm in the market for a new projector and was sold on the Epson TW2000. After hearing about the reports of the lumen output considerably dimmer after calibration, the benq just might be the ticket for a larger 120" 1.2 gain screen i have.

It might not have the darker black levels of the epson but the extra brightness from the W5000 might come in handy for watching sports and gaming on xbox360/ps3.

RRP in Australia for Benq W5000 is $3999 according to smarthouse.
RRP in Australia for Epson TW2000 is $4999 (Street price, a lot less)
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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i can confirm that the w 5000 not take the 24p signal
from the toshiba xe1 hd dvd player.
it displays it all the time in 60p.

i not understand toshiba why they not make that simple fix and add
like the ps3 a force 24p mode.
"""unbelievably"""

when i use the sony bd player it works fine with the w 5000 at 24p
without a force mode!

i like to do some cr. measurments but can it be true that the new test hd dvd
from joe kane not have a 100% black full frame test pattern and
a 100% white to measure on off cr.
may becaue i am sick i can not find them but if that is true this is
a big joke.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:03 AM
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4500:1 with 1000 lumens is very good. I bet it would get close to its 10,000:1 with the iris closed. It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers it will achieve once people start playing with the manual iris.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuebler View Post

I measured my W9000 as app. 2'500:1 with the iris fully open and app. 4'500:1 with it fully closed.

While in general I found the W9000 to be a good value for the money, I am somewhat dissatisfied with the general black level, both within the content and visible through 2.25 film bars.

So judging from this, the W5000 probably has some advances in brightness and other areas, but unfortunately (maybe) not much in black level.

It sounds like it has almost twice the contrast as it achieved 4500:1 with the iris open while the 9000 only had 2500:1 under those conditions. I'm guessing the 5000 will get close to double the contrast with it's iris closed. If it can get 7000:1+ and still give 400+ lumens then it will work very well in most peoples theaters.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

Not at 1000 lumens.

Neither does the W5000. Unless I'm misinterpreting Wolfgang's measurements.

If we take say the Sony SXRDs as an example, one would expect a DI contrast number to be a combination of max brightness (iris open) and max contrast (iris closed). That's how Benq apparently gets the 10,000:1 number for the W10000, only in the case of the W5000 it should be attainable in real world use.

If the 4500:1 dynamic number is accurate, I would expect native no better than 1,500:1. Many LCDs beat that!

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Old 12-20-2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobrigavitch View Post

It sounds like it has almost twice the contrast as it achieved 4500:1 with the iris open while the 9000 only had 2500:1 under those conditions.

Not true.

The W9000's 2'500:1 was without a dynamic iris. For the W5000 the 4'500:1 is with auto-iris. We don't know the number with auto iris off, but we can suspect that it's at least not more than 2'500:1.

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Old 12-20-2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

i can confirm that the w 5000 not take the 24p signal
from the toshiba xe1 hd dvd player.
it displays it all the time in 60p.

i not understand toshiba why they not make that simple fix and add
like the ps3 a force 24p mode.
"""unbelievably"""

when i use the sony bd player it works fine with the w 5000 at 24p
without a force mode!

i like to do some cr. measurments but can it be true that the new test hd dvd
from joe kane not have a 100% black full frame test pattern and
a 100% white to measure on off cr.
may becaue i am sick i can not find them but if that is true this is
a big joke.

Thank you for testing it.

Which Sony player did you use ?

When you set the PS3 to 24p, it is forced output.

HD-EP35 & PS3 & (soon to be) Regionfree Oppo BD-93. 148 : 481
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

Neither does the W5000. Unless I'm misinterpreting Wolfgang's measurements.

If we take say the Sony SXRDs as an example, one would expect a DI contrast number to be a combination of max brightness (iris open) and max contrast (iris closed). That's how Benq apparently gets the 10,000:1 number for the W10000, only in the case of the W5000 it should be attainable in real world use.

If the 4500:1 dynamic number is accurate, I would expect native no better than 1,500:1. Many LCDs beat that!

I think you are misinterpreting this. The W5000 has 2 irises. One is the dynamic iris, the other is user controllable. Wolfgangs measurements are with the DI on and manual iris full open. Thus 1000 lumens are available for 100 IRE. This is unlike the W9000/10000 where if you use the manual iris to improve CR, you don't have 1000 lumens available. Looking at Jason's AVS review of the W10000, he measured a CR of 2845:1 but at only 286 lumens. Yes that is a true native CR, but with 1/4 the light output Wolfgang measured. If the manual iris on the W5000 was stopped down to give a similar peak output, I bet the measured (dynamic) CR will exceed 4500:1. I don't really care what the 'native' cr of the W5000 is, the fact that it uses DI (if well implemented) is a plus.
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