Official Epson Pro Cinema 1080UB Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1643 Old 01-11-2008, 11:30 PM
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I don't think you need to be qualified to offer impressions on what most J6P's want to know.

1)black level/shadow detail
2)resolution
3)out of the box accuracy (color saturation)
4)brightness (comparing in best modes)
5)fan noise
6)flexibility
7)user options (VS, etc.)

I'm sure there are many on here who would like a non tech guys simplistic view on the difference between these.

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post #92 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 10:24 AM
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Thanks to bass addict for the suggestions about what people might be interested in.

Also have watched a little more content, I think that I definitely need to swap out the Grey1.8 screen for something else. The screen texture (beads) was especially visible and annoying on bright movies like the "The Shining" it seems to create a SSE effect regardless of the PJ used.

Here are my impressions (once again from a rank newbie):

1)black level/shadow detail

1080UB is the clear winner in terms of black levels. Sin City on the AE2000 made me go "wow, welcome to PJ land", but the UB makes the case that the pot can be blacker than the kettle (or the other way around if you will ).

2)resolution

Both PJs were excellent -- I tried going as close as 2 - 3 feet from the screen and couldn't see any noticable abberations from that distance (other than the beads on the screen ). I can't talk much about the AE2000's
"pixel smoothing' technology, because both of them produced very "film like" images (and yes, being a movie buff and a little bit of a film student, I do know that difference .

However, as noted the UB did seem to have that subjective edge.

3)out of the box accuracy (color saturation)

Looked pretty good to me but I haven't gotten around to calibrating either PJ. Mounting the screen in the room was a real chore given all the space restrictions and I wasn't in a mode to hunt for subtle chromatic deviations.

Note that the UB was set to 7500K by default and I toned it down to 6500K. I also turned on the Dynamic Iris and Epson White in the TB2 mode. For some reason this setting seems be to absent on the "Living Room" mode.

4)brightness (comparing in best modes)

Haven't gotten around to it -- "Color 1" and "Theater Black 1" were more than adequate for me. The Dynamic mode on the AE2000 was really searing and tough to watch.

5)fan noise

The AE2000 was very quiet and I was a little concerned about the UB's noise from the initial reports. IMO, the concerns are unfounded and I didn't notice any audibly distracting noise from either (but I have the XBox 360 in the room as well and might be used to the background noise).

6)flexibility

The horizontal and vertical shift on both PJs seem to be excellent. I got to experiment much more with the Panny's shift (since it was the first one). The Epson was mounted almost dead center, but shifting the image vertically and horizontally was a cinch with the dials.

The AE2000 does have an edge here because the zoom, shift and sharpness can be controlled from the remote. However, in my case, the UB is mounted pretty low and I can almost just reach over and adjust the dials by hand. In any case, the dials on the UB make it pretty easy.

7)user options (VS, etc.)

Think I have covered most of it above. The UB does have a significant edge in "wife acceptance factor" because of its curvy styling, but the AE2000's industrial apperance probably isn't a concern for this crowd.

However, the AE2000's side by side picture tweakibility feature might be the killer feature for some people.
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post #93 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 10:26 AM
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Although I have not seen the new Epson I own the Panny 2000U and have had a Sony VW60 in my house recently first the diffrence in the Sony and the Panny we're VERY VERY close with the Sony having a very slight edge in contrast and sharpness. I don't like very sharp digital looking PJ's so the Sony and the Panny looked fantastic sharp but not artificial looking. Now FooFoobar says the Epson kills the Panny and that is his opinion but to be fair you would have to have them close in setup.

With that said I think to say that it kills the Panny is a gross over statement but other things to consider are features the Panny has 3 HDMI 1.3 in puts, verticle stretch for using a lens for CIH, a built in wave form monitor for calibrations, PIP for making adjustments and seeing before and after results, motorized zoom and focus very helpful for getting good focus and at a lower cost.

Before anyone gets there shorts on to tight I am not saying that the Epson is not a great machine but the differences in the new crop of 1080p digitals are very small until you get into the Sim2's and upper end PJ,s given the two PJ's are 18080p the Epson and the Panny are a non issue for for SDE reguardless of the Panny's smoothscreen technology but in features both have plenty with the Panny winning hands down on that point the best way to pick a PJ is if you can see it for yourself before making a decision.


Screen shot are fun but cannot give a fair representation of any PJ due to many factors. We all have a tendency to favor what we own so reviews such as the one FooFooBar gave has little or no value to the purchase of any PJ sometimes professional measurements are the only way to say specs are better from one PJ to the next and sometime specs can't account for seeing it yourself.

KJ
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post #94 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

Now FooFoobar says the Epson kills the Panny and that is his opinion but to be fair you would have to have them close in setup.

Hmm..., I waxed eloquent about the UB's black levels, but I don't recall writing that there were glaring differences between the two. In my very subjective rank newbie opinion, the UB had that "edge" (in my environment).

Needless to say, your mileage may vary and some other forum member may very well choose to go the other way.

Anyway, as you noted, the professionals are best suited to go into the nitty gritty of the technical details, but ultimately, it comes down to whatever makes you happier ...
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post #95 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 10:57 AM
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I suspect that the PQ differences between these two projectors is quite subtle. One potentially important difference is the better warranty on the epson (immediate replacement), and issues of reliability (which may be in Epson's favor). Unfortunately, there are reports that both are vulnerable to dust blobs.
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post #96 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 11:08 AM
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foofoobar, thank you for taking the time to jot down your impessions. I personally like to hear more from an average Joe than a "professional" on pj impressions. The fact that one has a .0001% advantage in gamma just doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I want average calibrated comparison results as this is what is going to benefit me.

Anyways, as far as the differences between the new 1080 crop of PJ's I will agree that it would be a narrow margin of victory in any category. If you didn't have the pj's setup side by side with the same source material I think you would be hard pressed to pick a winner in any category. In my hunt for a new pj I have looked hard at the 1080UB and AE2000. Here is what I see as pro's in my situation.

AE2000 -

remote zoom and lens shift: great feature to have for those who can't afford a lens for 2:35 and would prefer to zoom. Makes it much more convenient to switch between different aspect ratio's.

vertical stretch: allows me to ad a lens down the road without having to dump more money into a scaler for 2:35

color: you may laugh but I currently have a TW700, which is white, and it stands out like a sore thumb in my black theater

calibration: The Panny has some great features to help the novice get the most out of their picture

1080UB -

lumens : I'm lighting up a large screen and it appears the UB has a slight edge in FL at the end of the day

warranty : 2 years as opposed to 1 yr give me a nice warm fuzzy (I don't know why seeing as I've never kept a pj for more than a year and they have all had less then 300 hours when I sold them.)

Reliability: there's no doubt Panny has seen some negative press with the glaring problems that a lot have faced on their last few pj's. (I personally had good luck with my AE900 but that seems to be where the streak ended)

CS: Epson wins hands down, excellent customer service.

At then end of the day it's a very tough choice between convenience features and reliability. The Panny definitely wins in the "staveoffupgradeitis" area but I think the nod has to go to the Epson for their great history of reliability and customer service.

JMTC

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post #97 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 12:49 PM
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Foofoobar

Can you get some close-up shots of convergence, like letters from menu or some computer screens? There were reports of bad convergence out of the box.

Any idea, how 1080 UB compares to Sony VW60 (Black Pearl)?

Thanks.
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post #98 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Potential Problems Checked:

I displayed the pattern as well as the menu lettering to check for convergence. It appears VERY good - maybe just a tad of green on one side and red on the other, but only very slight. I put up a white screen to check for color uniformity. It appeared to me to be very good. I will look at that again in more detail. There may have been an every so slight bluish tinge to the white screen, but my eyes were not fully adjusted and I was anxious to get to the movie. I put up a black screen to check for dust. I found no dust blobs. I checked for noise. Unfortunately, I live in a high-altitude place and had to run it that mode. That coupled with the lamp on high does produce a fan noise maybe slightly higher than that of my Sony HS51. I didn't hear it from my seating position since I am a good five feet away from the projector. But once up close, the fan noise is noticeable.

Ricwhite, for uniformity (especially shooting on a High Power), you should use a gray test image. The original HC1080 has a pretty widely documented issue with full scene uniformity, but a vibrant white screen almost completely overpowers and masks it. It'll show up immediately on a gray pattern if the problem is still there.
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post #99 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade100 View Post

Foofoobar

Can you get some close-up shots of convergence, like letters from menu or some computer screens? There were reports of bad convergence out of the box.

Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast on LCD's. There will always be some amount of mis convervence due to the nature of the panels. Some worse some better than others. Every once in a while you'll get one way off and Epson will replace it with a new one.

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post #100 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 01:38 PM
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Back on post 87, I gave my initial impressions of the Epson.

I have watched two HD DVDs -- Stardust and Kingdom. I was able to grab a few screen shots of the Kingdom, but just to be fair, I have never done screen shots before and I have a rather cheap digital camera and no tripod at the moment. So, take them for what they're worth. Be aware that the Kingdom is shot with "shaky cam" and it was VERY difficult to get a freeze frame that wasn't blurry with some kind of motion.

Also, the projector is not calibrated extensively. I threw in the SD version of Avia and did a few contrast, black and color adjustments, but that's about it.

http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom1.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom2.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom3.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom4.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom5.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom6.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom7.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/kingdom8.jpg
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post #101 of 1643 Old 01-12-2008, 10:38 PM
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Here are some images of my settings on the Epson 1080 UB:

http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/imagesettings.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/signalsettings.jpg
http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/infosettings.jpg

And here is a closeup of white lettering to see convergence. It doesn't look nearly this bad up close. The digital camera may be bleeding the colors somewhat. But there is a slight mis-convergence with green to the right and with red to the left -- maybe a pixel. It doesn't seem to affect normal viewing. I don't know what is considered "acceptable" or not.

http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent/convergence2.jpg
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post #102 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:44 AM
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I cant wait for my 1080ub Pro!!

I have had an AE2000u for 2 months so will be able to give a good comparison.

he menue looks god too, caint wait to dig in on it!

Lee

 


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post #103 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3bbY View Post

I cant wait for my 1080ub Pro!!

I have had an AE2000u for 2 months so will be able to give a good comparison.

he menue looks god too, caint wait to dig in on it!

There's a place in Amesbury that just got one in. It hasn't even been set up yet, what with the two sales reps just getting back from the recent CES. They have a 110" Silverstar screen, so it should be quite an impressive image.

I plan to visit on the 21st, thanks to having the holiday off.
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post #104 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 09:12 AM
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Is there anybody out there with really good convergence? Maybe the Pro owner? Can you post some pictures, just close-up on letters from menu, just 3 to 5 letters across the picture not the entire screen.

I wonder if Epson ever gets lucky with this convergence, or is it just hand pick unit tweaked for official review to get good convergence?
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post #105 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade100 View Post

Is there anybody out there with really good convergence? Maybe the Pro owner? Can you post some pictures, just close-up on letters from menu, just 3 to 5 letters across the picture not the entire screen.

I wonder if Epson ever gets lucky with this convergence, or is it just hand pick unit tweaked for official review to get good convergence?


Here's mine:



Oh . . . hold it! You wanted GOOD convergence. Sorry.
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post #106 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 09:41 AM
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I would like to know what would be deemed "acceptable" convergence. If one color is off by 1 full pixel, is that "acceptable?" What if all THREE colors are off by 1 full pixel?

With my 1080 UB, Red is off by 1, green is off by 1, and blue is off by 2 pixels or so. I'm just wondering if I should pursue an exchange.
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post #107 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

There's a place in Amesbury that just got one in. It hasn't even been set up yet, what with the two sales reps just getting back from the recent CES. They have a 110" Silverstar screen, so it should be quite an impressive image.

I plan to visit on the 21st, thanks to having the holiday off.


I hope to have mine setup before te 21st!!
I will have it on a 109" Stewart Studiotek 130.

Lee

 


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post #108 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 10:23 AM
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As a calibration point, What does the convergence look like for other lcd projectors?Is the convergence that we are seeing typical or is Epson having a serious problem?

My guess is that other projector vendors have similar performance -- Am I wrong????

After looking at mine closer, my red and green are also off by about 1 pixel and I don't see the blue fringe.
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post #109 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 03:49 PM
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From my experience, particularly with Panasonic models, its not uncommon to have a slight convergence problem with these 3lcd projectors, due to the nature of optics and manufacturing tolerances. Personally anything less than 1 pixel I'd say is great, 1 pixel is average, and anything over that is getting in the unacceptable area. Others may disagree, but you're paying for sharp HD, especially on the 1080P end of the spectrum, and misconvergence starts negating that benefit.

Having said that, if you use the lens shift, you might find that is contributing to the problem...try moving the shift around and observe if the convergence changes...also changing the zoom may impact it. The convergence should be better the less shift you use, but YMMV. of course you may not have the liberty of positioning the projector to get the optimal convergence
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post #110 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

I would like to know what would be deemed "acceptable" convergence. If one color is off by 1 full pixel, is that "acceptable?" What if all THREE colors are off by 1 full pixel?

With my 1080 UB, Red is off by 1, green is off by 1, and blue is off by 2 pixels or so. I'm just wondering if I should pursue an exchange.

Now yah got me.
Convergence is usually referenced to the green channel so 3 cannot be off.
Your above photo indicates Red off by 1 and Blue off by 2. This allows Green to be apparent since there is no Red or Blue to make that pixel white (since colour is additive in displays). It is why the Red is actually Magenta (Blue plus Red).

Convergence is out both vertically and horizontally for the Red (this is why the pixels along the bottom of the text are Cyan (Blue + Green).

If this is in the middle of the image I would suggest you check your warranty as most maufacturers, I believe, warranty 1 pixel misconvergence in the centre and two in the outer part of the frame.

ted
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post #111 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrawner View Post

Having said that, if you use the lens shift, you might find that is contributing to the problem...try moving the shift around and observe if the convergence changes...also changing the zoom may impact it. The convergence should be better the less shift you use, but YMMV. of course you may not have the liberty of positioning the projector to get the optimal convergence

Covergence will not change with the lens shift or zoom as convergence is a mechanical issue that is dependent upon panel alignment. What you are expereiencing with the lens is Chromatic Abberation which is a function of the angle at which the light hits the lens element. Each colour being of a different wavelength is bent at a different angle as it enters the glass. Light striking the glass perpendicular to the glass plane is not bent as far. as the outer edges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_Abberation

Ultimately the effect is similar.

It seems the AE2000 has a better lens in this regard.


ted
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post #112 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

Now yah got me.
Convergence is usually referenced to the green channel so 3 cannot be off.
Your above photo indicates Red off by 1 and Blue off by 2. This allows Green to be apparent since there is no Red or Blue to make that pixel white (since colour is additive in displays). It is why the Red is actually Magenta (Blue plus Red).

Convergence is out both vertically and horizontally for the Red (this is why the pixels along the bottom of the text are Cyan (Blue + Green).

If this is in the middle of the image I would suggest you check your warranty as most maufacturers, I believe, warranty 1 pixel misconvergence in the centre and two in the outer part of the frame.

ted

Thanks for the information. The screen shot was taken toward the center of the screen. If there was just one pixel off on blue and red, I probably wouldn't be too concerned, but since it's two pixels off on blue and one on red, I think I will pursue an exchange.
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post #113 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 06:51 PM
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I think for myself, it works like this. Anything over 1/2 pixel misconvergence is noticeable as a less sharp image. More than 1 pixel makes the image quite soft. Anything less than 1/2 pixel mis-convergence is ok. So 1/4 to 1/3 of a pixel of misconvergence is ok. 3/4 to 1 pixel misconvergence is not sharp looking. Here is what my Hitachi TX200 looked like with poor convergence. What I neglected to do was take a comparative picture of what the convergence looked like with the replacement projector to show good convergence. I guess since the replacement projector solved my problem, I just watched movies instead of taking pics
LL
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post #114 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:12 PM
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Dumb question: what is the best way to check the convergence? Does this depend on the particular projector?
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post #115 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2 View Post

what is the best way to check the convergence? Does this depend on the particular projector?

Single pixel white text on a black field works well, witness cpc's picture referenced in his earlier post. Note his is primarily RED channel out of alignment as the remaing colour is CYAN (BLUE + GREEN) wherin it would be WHITE if all three panels lined up correctly.

Some projectors have built in test patterns. Avia and DVE both provide cross hatch patterns for such testing. If you've a 720p unit its best for use a 720p file and if a 1080 then use a 1080 file. Its best if the pj can pixel map 1:1 as you wish to avoid scaling.

no dumb questions in my book only dumb answers of which I've been known to proffer.
ted
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post #116 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:27 PM
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Should I ask for a replacement for my pro 1080 ub???

What do you think.
I have attached a link to the word reset from the menu
http://www.box.net/shared/z4mvzx18g8
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post #117 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:28 PM
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I am thinking about the epson, but had a question about the lens shift. What exactly does 47% horizontal shift mean? Is this 47% from the center of the screen (meaning slightly inside the left or right side), or 47% from the outside of the screen? If I could position it about 2 feet to the right of the screen it would make it much easier to mount and to connect to the equipment, and I could change the throw distance much easier. Also, if this is possible, does it affect the picture a lot? If I can put it to the side I can place it right in the middle horizontally. So I would not need to use any vertical shift.

Thanks
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post #118 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:35 PM
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I'm sure it's been asked, but does it support 1080p 24 fps? Does it upscale to 72 fps to avoid judder? Thanks.
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post #119 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonchilds View Post

I am thinking about the epson, but had a question about the lens shift. What exactly does 47% horizontal shift mean? Is this 47% from the center of the screen (meaning slightly inside the left or right side), or 47% from the outside of the screen? Thanks
Jon

Percent is percent and will be the same referenced from the centre or the edge since the *whole* image shifts.

I haven't read the EPSON manual but it would seem to me that you have a shift of almost half a screen width, i.e on an 96 inch wide (110 diagonal) image you shold be able to shift that .47 * 96 or 45 inches. Be aware that depending on the quality of the lens/shift mechanism that optical errors *can* be introduced - Chromatic Aberration or Keystoning for example. The only way to know for sure is to play around which I'm a great beleiver in. What else are you planning to do with your pj, watch movies or somethng? We're nerds. (I'm pretty though).

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post #120 of 1643 Old 01-13-2008, 07:59 PM
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For those with convergence concerns, some some good info can be gleaned from this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12724325

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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