JVC laser projector at show! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lne937s View Post

PhlatLight Home Theater Projector
Luminus will demonstrate a home theater front projector prototype powered by PhlatLight LEDs. The latest PhlatLight LEDs have achieved a dramatic increase in brightness, producing over 700 ANSI lumens, and the front projection system is on track to break the 1,000 lumen barrier in 2008. This will enable home cinema front projector manufacturers to provide the benefits of PhlatLight LED technology, which include instant on operation, ultra high contrast, uniform brightness and wide color gamut performance with the elimination of the need to replace lamps during the life of the product.

Wow, I'm sorry I missed seeing this the day (Tues) that I was at the CES. A 1-chip dlp w/o the color wheel, ultra high CR, enough lumens, and all these other good features does have one salivating! Now one only hopes that it can be produced at a price that doesn't put it in the ultra high end forum!
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post #92 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Wow, I'm sorry I missed seeing this the day (Tues) that I was at the CES. A 1-chip dlp w/o the color wheel, ultra high CR, enough lumens, and all these other good features does have one salivating! Now one only hopes that it can be produced at a price that doesn't put it in the ultra high end forum!

No mention of true black level so I am guessing this is not a modulating LED
array just a steady lamp replacement like what is in the Sammy RP. The term ultra high contrast is being used now by many manufactures.
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post #93 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

So lets say LEDs can achieve 50 percent then perhaps there will be a 400-500 ANSI lumen LED projektor

For those of us with medium size screens (say 100-110" diag for example) with some gain, 400-500 lumens is getting into the acceptable range considering there should be ZERO (or darn close to it) light loss for years with LED/laser.

For instance my RS1 was putting out about 600 lumens when I first got it, which I was excited about because it meant I would be into the 400-ish range after several hundred hours.

My point is that I think many look for higher lumen pj specs because they know they will lose up to 50% in the first year or two of usage. But since lasers and LEDs do not lose output, I think many will still be happy even with the lower rated lumens. Does this make sense?

Now Ohlson - of all years for your NOT to be at CES!!
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post #94 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:34 PM
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Alan Gouger
TI talks about LEDs and dlp and says 500000:1 in one of the press releases. If you turn something off the ratio white to black gets really high. Contrary to local dimming LEDs used as lcd BLU the dimming is global. A global dimming LED-based "DI" is still welcome.

Novalux
It is time to leak some impressions into this thread before it gets into a TI glory thread.

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post #95 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Ine937s
1000 lumen light source and a 1000 lumen projector are two very different things. Howver the information is very interesting. Which is it 1000 lumen light source or 1000 lumen projector.

If I uncritically go by what Novalux states
LEDs: 15% optical efficiency
NECSEL: 80% optical efficiency
So lets say LEDs can achieve 50 percent then perhaps there will be a 400-500 ANSI lumen LED projektor

The 1000 lumen spec is for on screen with a front projector planned for late 2008- PhlatLight sources in market fall 2007 Samsung RPTV's were already 2000 lumens in pulsed mode (3000 continuous).
http://www.luminus.com/content1092
http://www.luminus.com/stuff/content..._rev03_web.pdf

Also, I wouldn't trust the Novalux site for comparison information- virtually every stat they have is based on early white traditional LED lightsources that were used in some low output devices a number of years ago. The RGB Phlatlight LED's are significantly different technology, more optically efficient, and much more powerful.
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post #96 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lne937s View Post

It appears to me that TI is really pushing for use of DLP with LED's, as the traditional bulbs are a significant limiting factor for DLP.

Yes indeed! TI is pushing for LEDs (and perhaps lasers too) because it solves the biggest complaint/drawback for DLP - rainbows. WIth LEDs you do not need a color wheel, which means no rainbows, much more efficient light usage, no excess noise (from spinning color wheel) and cheaper and more efficient light engine designs. Bottom line is that LEDs/lasers will be the saving grace for DLP technology. Given LCoS advances in the past year this could not have come soon enough for DLP.
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post #97 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

For those of us with medium size screens (say 100-110" diag for example) with some gain, 400-500 lumens is getting into the acceptable range considering there should be ZERO (or darn close to it) light loss for years with LED/laser.

For instance my RS1 was putting out about 600 lumens when I first got it, which I was excited about because it meant I would be into the 400-ish range after several hundred hours.

My point is that I think many look for higher lumen pj specs because they know they will lose up to 50% in the first year or two of usage. But since lasers and LEDs do not lose output, I think many will still be happy even with the lower rated lumens. Does this make sense?

It certainly makes sense to me. 400 (500) lumens on my 126" HP screen turns into ~25 (30) ftL, and that is just about perfect for my taste.
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post #98 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:54 PM
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If one of these technologies were to materialize and offer high contrast true black but fell short on light level I think I would easily go to a smaller screen and enjoy the improved PQ.
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post #99 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:55 PM
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Single chip dlp can only display the three primary colors sequentially so wouldn't you still have potential for rainbows?.
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post #100 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

It certainly makes sense to me. 400 (500) lumens on my 126" HP screen turns into ~25 (30) ftL, and that is just about perfect for my taste.

I wonder if LEDs/lasers will provide a variable light output control that would essentially act similar to what a manual iris does as far as reducing light output to the desirable level. Of course the advantages of doing it with the light source itself rather than using a manual iris must be huge.

I think varying the brightness of the light source itself is the principle that the Sim HT380 uses - of course in that scenario it is a variable bulb. But the benefits from this are supposedly quite nice.

It would be great if the variability was completely controllable. For example instead of having high/low mode if could be a wide sweeping range that you could pick from.
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post #101 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I wonder if LEDs/lasers will provide a variable light output control that would essentially act similar to what a manual iris does as far as reducing light output to the desirable level. Of course the advantages of doing it with the light source itself rather than using a manual iris must be huge.

I think varying the brightness of the light source itself is the principle that the Sim HT380 uses - of course in that scenario it is a variable bulb. But the benefits from this are supposedly quite nice.

It would be great if the variability was completely controllable. For example instead of having high/low mode if could be a wide sweeping range that you could pick from.

That very thing is being worked on and has been patented.


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post #102 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 01:27 PM
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lne937s
What is the optical efficiency of Phlatlight leds? Note that I did not trust the Novalux figures and bumped to 50 percent. Would you like to increase that figure.

Also how much will the lumens go down when the projector is calibrated to D65?

Mattias Ohlson
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post #103 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luptong View Post

Single chip dlp can only display the three primary colors sequentially so wouldn't you still have potential for rainbows?.

I think I read somewhere that with LEDs the frequency of the color change will be much higher, several thousand Hz (compared to 240 or 300 Hz with a color wheel).

Guenther
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post #104 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tdsandme View Post

I think I read somewhere that with LEDs the frequency of the color change will be much higher, several thousand Hz (compared to 240 or 300 Hz with a color wheel).

Guenther

Thats correct.

Many wheels, however, are now operating around 1KHz for changes. 10000rpm x 6 segments/60.

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post #105 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

That's not true, you still get brightness compression your way. In a mixed scene, you can't turn off the LASER but the portion of the screen that was originally black is no longer black. The only way to do this is with a scanning LASER. The way a LASER is used in this case is as a light bulb replacement. The only advantage contrast wise is you can stop down your iris so it's nearly a pin hole and yet still have a very bright screen. LCOS benefits greatly when the iris is made smaller. A conventional UHP or xenon lamp, the more you clamp down the iris, the lower the light output, but with a LASER that's no longer a problem.

Your absolutely right you will get brightness compression and the only way to get a CRT effect is with a scanning system if you have a high powered laser with a fast enough rise and fall time.

You can not stop your iris down to a pinhole because you will destroy your resolution at the screen because of diffraction Even if you have a scanning system , you will need a certain Fnumber at the exit side to get a small spot at the screen, that is why scanning laser systems use F theta lenses.

The contrast will increase because the laser light has a narrow bandwidth and the extinction ratio of the polarizers will increase

Although you do not want to focus the light directly on the screen See Gaskill, intro to Fourier Optics the spot size of a Gaussian Beam is without aberrations is given by 1.29 x wavelength X Fnumber

say you stop the system down to a .1mm pinhole and your 15 ft this from the screen. this will give you an F" of 45,000

This will result in a spot size of 35 mm. to keep diffraction from having effect on resolution and to keep edge scatter to a minimum i would probably set the aperture of the system at around 10 to 12 mm .35mm spot size which is about where the current system are set at.

I also do not think the the Novalux lasers are spatially coherent so I do not think you would use a pinhole to even scan the beam and even laser scanners expand the beam to focus the laser to a spot at the image plane

In a laser scanning system you set the stop of the system at the scanning mirror whether its a galvometric scanner, resonant scanner (super markets) or
rotating faceted mirror scanner (very nice but very expensive. the stop size is usually around 12mm and you try to fill the whole stop with the laser light.
You then put a lens in front of the beam called an f theta lens which linear translates the angle of the mirror to the point on the image plane. If you do not do this the dwell time will be different for different field points.

for projection systems for the home you would have to design a zoom fTheta lens. I am not sure it has ever been done but it would be fun to do.

IBM published a bunch a papers in the 1970s on laser scanning systems but you needed big gas argon lasers and acousto-optical modulators. It was all the rage for a while but just to expensive for the home.

You may be on to something!
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post #106 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

lne937s
What is the optical efficiency of Phlatlight leds? Note that I did not trust the Novalux figures and bumped to 50 percent. Would you like to increase that figure.

Also how much will the lumens go down when the projector is calibrated to D65?

I did note that you did take their numbers with a grain of salt. The lack of real numbers makes a comparison of technologies much more difficult.

I can't find any stats, although I guess you could try to extrapolate from the specs. However, I doubt that the total system efficency of the LED projector would be higher than 50% (probably less)- although, given the losses in the DLP chip alone, I would also question lasers being 80% in projector.

While 80% may be theoretical for laser optical efficiency- real numbers would depend on the application. It would not make much sense to compare theoretical numbers to actual numbers of real world products (although it has been done before).

In terms of optical efficiency in getting the light to the chip, I could see 80% possibly hitting the surface of the chip with laser. The laser would have a more concentrated and focused beam but would have losses related to shaping and expansion of the light source required to match size and shape of the chip. However, given the shape of the Phlatlight LEDs and the size of the emitting area with 100% surface emission, I would expect similar efficiency to laser, despite the beam being somewhat less focused and concentrated.
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post #107 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 04:43 PM
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Do we believe there will be laser FP units availble for ther home in the next year or so ?

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post #108 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Do we believe there will be laser FP units availble for ther home in the next year or so ?

Art

If you mean genuine scanning FP laser rather than just a lamp replacement... absolutely not. I cant wait though.

I think the LED option will available before the laser as development is further along.

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post #109 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 05:26 PM
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We should all stop talking about scanned laser solutions for anything other than tiny displays; eye safety issues will not permit it for home theater optical power levels. Lasers for realistic front projectors will simply be microdisplay illuminators, where the whole panel is lit at the same time. They still may outpace LEDs in this regard.

Kevin
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post #110 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Do we believe there will be laser FP units availble for ther home in the next year or so ?

Art

I think if Novalux really has a high powered red laser that has a decent lifetime which they can produce in quantities then you will see a laser projector in the next or so.
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post #111 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin McCarthy View Post

We should all stop talking about scanned laser solutions for anything other than tiny displays; eye safety issues will not permit it for home theater optical power levels. Lasers for realistic front projectors will simply be microdisplay illuminators, where the whole panel is lit at the same time. They still may outpace LEDs in this regard.

Kevin

I have done eye safety calculations for class 3A tunable lasers and scanning system can put out a lot more power than a static laser system. This is why supermarket scanners are permitted. This is because a lot depends on dwell time and because the laser is scanning it is only putting a few joules on your system. If you have a one watt scanning laser at 60 hz and you assume the pupil of the eye is 7mm in diameter I think you get less than a nanojoule of energy as the laser scans by.

I have not looked at th regulations in 10 years so I don't know what the exact regulations are. Visible lasers are better than near infrared because the eye has a blink response in the visibie that it does not have in the near infrared

I designed laser range finders and the marines would turn the range finder around look down the barrel and push the on button so I had to expand the beam wider and cut down the duty cycle so they would not destroy their eyes.

I talked to Sony , and they said the only hangup to laser illuminators was the red laser. they have had the green and the blue lasers for around 2 years.
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post #112 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

I have done eye safety calculations for class 3A tunable lasers and scanning system can put out a lot more power than a static laser system. This is why supermarket scanners are permitted. This is because a lot depends on dwell time and because the laser is scanning it is only putting a few joules on your system. If you have a one watt scanning laser at 60 hz and you assume the pupil of the eye is 7mm in diameter I think you get less than a nanojoule of energy as the laser scans by.

I have not looked at th regulations in 10 years so I don't know what the exact regulations are. Visible lasers are better than near infrared because the eye has a blink response in the visibie that it does not have in the near infrared

I designed laser range finders and the marines would turn the range finder around look down the barrel and push the on button so I had to expand the beam wider and cut down the duty cycle so they would not destroy their eyes.

I talked to Sony , and they said the only hangup to laser illuminators was the red laser. they have had the green and the blue lasers for around 2 years.

This is posted in another thread, but is relevant here. If you haven't seen this, Microvision will have a scanning laser FP on the market by end of 2008. The entire laser + scanning mirror is no larger than a matchbook. The scanning mirror they have designed is (in my mind) the holy grail of Front Projection (unless 4th panel modulation magically appears). It is digital FP's best chance for CRT native on/off.

The downside is this is being marketed towards the ipod/cellphone crowd. However if the tech catches on maybe that will encourage entry into the home theater market.
15-20 lumens
854x480p resolution
60hz
speckle?
Under $300.00

http://www.microvision.com/pico_proj...owitworks.html

http://gizmodo.com/341927/video-of-m...es-backclassic
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4244056.html
http://popsci.typepad.com/popsci/200...isions-po.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvClk5JVXxk
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/0...isions-pl.html
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArtic...etimes_newsRSS
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post #113 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 10:20 PM
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Did anybody notice the thick scan line that goes up the screen constantly on a pico projector? Does thnat mean the pico pj has a very slow scanning speed?
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post #114 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckong View Post

Did anybody notice the thick scan line that goes up the screen constantly on a pico projector? Does thnat mean the pico pj has a very slow scanning speed?

Same as what you would see with a CRT monitor. It supposedly refreshes at 60hz and isn't visible in person.
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post #115 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 10:58 PM
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Is there any visual artifacts with scanning laser?. I don't want another system that can't be used by everyone, a.k.a single chip dlp and the rainbow effect.
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post #116 of 237 Old 01-10-2008, 11:46 PM
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Personally it doesn't matter to me whether it is LEDs or lasers. The promise of both technologies is large, obviously. We talk about wanting pjs that make a significant difference or even 'night and day' difference and instead mostly split hairs (in the grand scheme of things).comparing all the latest pjs to one another and which is best.

However with LED and lasers (even if just for illumination and not scanning) we are going to get an incredible leap forward in performance - perhaps the biggest we've seen to-date in front pjs in terms of one technology replacing another. Just the thought of a true fade to black and the room going completely pitch black. Wow. These technologies cannot get here soon enough!
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post #117 of 237 Old 01-11-2008, 12:06 AM
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"given the losses in the DLP chip alone"

At first I thought, what losses?, except the 5% or so from imperfect reflectivity.

But I forgot about the PWM. What percent of the light hitting the DMD is reflected downstream at 100 IRE?

Noah
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post #118 of 237 Old 01-11-2008, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post


However with LED and lasers (even if just for illumination and not scanning) we are going to get an incredible leap forward in performance

Sadly ( just taking a guess here ) I think that is all we will get at first is steady illumination. To see the contrast and black level improvement everyone is excited about we need a scanning laser system or modulating LEDs. The current LED RP with LED are nether. Im sure they will drag us through a few generations of steady illumination before we get the real eye candy.
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post #119 of 237 Old 01-11-2008, 07:41 AM
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Has nobody actually seen this projector. I find it very dissapointing that we now have a 5 page thread and not one first hand report.
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post #120 of 237 Old 01-11-2008, 07:59 AM
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I really like the idea, but I'm starting to think that there is no RS2 w/lasers.
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