JVC laser projector at show! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 237 Old 01-15-2008, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

I auditioned the RS2 last week and there was a blue image on the screen and did not see the white haze or what I am calling under saturation. I agree with Greg Rogers review when he said the images produced by the RS1 were" crystalline" and " Free of haze"

I do think I have an explanation of the under saturation :white haze/glare people see on a LCOS device especially when they freeze the frame or they are looking at a bright interior shot which is very static.

Liquid crystal modules like to see changes in the electric field other wise they begin to drift. for laser attenuators instead of putting a DC field on the device instead an ac field is used and you vary the attenuation by increasing the amplitude of a fixed modulation frequency. If you just put a DC voltage on the crystal , the molecules will orient themselves in the right direction initially but afterwards will begin to drift in orientation and start to rotate in a random manner.

Now I know that the LCOS panels are analog modulated and it may be that the JVC engineers thought the changing frames would be enough to keep each pixel stable. But if you freeze the frame or you have a static interior shot than the pixels don't change and they begin to drift.

98 percent of the time it should not matter because most media does not project static images.

I think there possibly are issues of semantics here as the term haze is misleading and not what id use myself

The effect is clearly seen on a moving image. It is localized and mainly effects bright areas or objects bordering dark areas. I initially thought it was a low level light scatter, but im not sure. When its pointed out you cant mistake it. Don't get me wrong, it not something thats SCREAMING off the screen.

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post #182 of 237 Old 01-15-2008, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Mark,
....

Novalux is an interesting company. They were founded by an ex professor at MIT Amran Mooradian as a Telecom company. I always ask these guys " why would anyone leave the gentile world of Academia and enter my barbaric world. Anyway, The telecom industry busts and they decide to compete against Coherent in the high power semiconductor business but that did not work out. So now they are making lasers for projection system and have just hired as their new CEO the former head of Coherent's high powered semiconductor devision

I get excited about their technology and I go to their website to see what the specifications are on their lasers. Are they single or are they multiple transverse mode devices, Are they single frequency devices, what are the lifetimes, what are the rise and fall times and what are the packaging options and in particular how much power does their red laser emit.

You go to the website and there are no product numbers , there are no drawings and there are no specifications. Which means there are no products in production and this is from a company that has been around for 10 years.

clearly they work for the government. it amazes me how companies 'in the private sector' survive when they 'compete' to build items the U.S. govt 'bids for'. Non lethal technologies are a leading edge of research (for example, using the interference patterns of high frequency, high intensity sound to create directional and disabling cones of sound and nausea-think BOSE) But seriously, i can see defocussed lasers as a great tool to temporarily blind opposing forces. recently there has been crackdown on battery powered handheld green lasers by the FBI after a rash of complaints by pilots being blinded as far up as a couple of miles-and this is accidental by amateur astronomers just pointing out stars to their kids. i dont really think laser powered projectors will make it to the public. before you know it, someone will claim it can be used as a WMD.
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post #183 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Mark,

Excuse my typos, I had a few drinks before I posted and my propensity to misspell needs no encouragement. I mangle the English language just fine sober.

Novalux is an interesting company. They were founded by an ex professor at MIT Amran Mooradian as a Telecom company. I always ask these guys " why would anyone leave the gentile world of Academia and enter my barbaric world. Anyway, The telecom industry busts and they decide to compete against Coherent in the high power semiconductor business but that did not work out. So now they are making lasers for projection system and have just hired as their new CEO the former head of Coherent's high powered semiconductor devision

I get excited about their technology and I go to their website to see what the specifications are on their lasers. Are they single or are they multiple transverse mode devices, Are they single frequency devices, what are the lifetimes, what are the rise and fall times and what are the packaging options and in particular how much power does their red laser emit.

You go to the website and there are no product numbers , there are no drawings and there are no specifications. Which means there are no products in production and this is from a company that has been around for 10 years.

Novalux is/was interesting. They received 200 Million in funding, over 150 Million in venture capital and they sell for 7 million in stock and 13 million in debt assumption. It looks like the hype and promises have outweighted the financial gains. There must be some angry investors out there.

To top it all off, they were bought out by Arasor, an Austrailian Exchange listed company that saw its stock price drop by 2/3 since last April and posts consistent, large losses. The purchase was stated to improve Arasor's position in a joint venture with the Chinese company ZTE to develop and build laser optical engines in China.

So, if you want to see this come to market, you had better hope the Chinese come through...

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...115&id=8043807
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/...20News/969251/
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=ASX:ARR
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post #184 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 10:27 AM
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Something laser will happen
1 http://www.projectionsummit.com/
2 http://www.insightmedia.info/reports/2007vissimtoc.php

In my second link there seems to be no reference to laser + lcos, perhaps they are still under development. I think lcos is competitive since Barco has just introduced top of the line simulation lcos projectors with a 4-panel engine and 1M:1 in dynamic range.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #185 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 10:38 AM
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"Barco has just introduced top of the line simulation lcos projectors with a 4-panel engine and 1M:1 in dynamic range."

Interesting. Do you know if the 4th panel is LCOS or LCD?

LCD would be much simpler and perhaps the hit on fill factor could be minimized by placing slightly out of focus.

Noah
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post #186 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Something laser will happen
1 http://www.projectionsummit.com/
2 http://www.insightmedia.info/reports/2007vissimtoc.php

In my second link there seems to be no reference to laser + lcos, perhaps they are still under development. I think lcos is competitive since Barco has just introduced top of the line simulation lcos projectors with a 4-panel engine and 1M:1 in dynamic range.

It looks like Projection Summit 2008 doesn't want the riffraff cluttering up their get-together; I considered trying to get in, but the registration is > $1K.
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post #187 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Throw me a bone here! Now they have frick'n lasers...

Dr. Evil could strap these prototype JVC laser projectors onto the heads of sharks!
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post #188 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Now I know that the LCOS panels are analog modulated and it may be that the JVC engineers thought the changing frames would be enough to keep each pixel stable.

Beginning with the RS1 (and their HDILA RPTV line), newer JVC chips use a digital backplane with PWM, no longer analog control of the voltage.

BB
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post #189 of 237 Old 01-16-2008, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think there possibly are issues of semantics here as the term haze is misleading and not what id use myself

The effect is clearly seen on a moving image. It is localized and mainly effects bright areas or objects bordering dark areas. I initially thought it was a low level light scatter, but im not sure. When its pointed out you cant mistake it. Don't get me wrong, it not something thats SCREAMING off the screen.

could be crosstalk at the pixel plain. the electric field in one pixel which is turned completely on is effecting the pixel next to it which is completely off.

You can have moving pictures and still have static images within the film frame.

I studied this projector for two hours and made some measurements and could not find this glare or haze. I agree with Greg Rogers when he describes the images as crystalline and in terminator 2 when he says there was no haze and he remarks how well the projector images different scenes of different intensity in the same scene extremely well. And then he talks about the inky blacks and he is talking about the RS1, which has half the contrast ratio of the RS2

In other words although this projector does not project the sharpest image out there in High APL scenes, it has the best instantaneous dynamic range of any digital projector on the market and has at 30,000 to 1 the best on off contrast of any digital projector sold.

This means it images bright objects in dark backgrounds and dark objects in Bright background better than any digital projector currently on the market
When I was at Cedia in 2006 the chief engineer at Stewart said you have to go offsite and see the new JVC dila RS1 and than he said "it is the best digital projector at the show. I went offsite and was shown a scene in Chronicles of
Riddick where a bright explosion goes off outlining the body of Riddick who is in the dark shadows and you can see the details of his skin and clothing against this brilliant background. I have seen 200,000 dollar CRT systems and I was still astonished at dynamic range of that projector that day. It was a magnificent demonstration of the strengths of LCOS Technology.

As Greg Rogers has said in his Widescreen Review in mid to high APL and in some scenes you will notice a very slight amount of glare that does not show up on the better DPL projectors but can you describe the image LCOS puts out as Hazy, hardly, as Greg Rogers has said it, puts out a clear Crystalline image free of Haze.

The tradeoff is:
If you like a very crisp digital image in high APL scenes than the best projector I have ever seen are the Sim2 HT3000E and the Sim2 C3X 1080P

But if you like to watch film with its smooth film like quality and you are a former CRT owner who likes inky blacks than you will want to consider one of the LCOS projectors because the blacks in even the best dlp projectors will look gray to your eyes and the images will look harsh and brittle.

Me? I am still trying to decide
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post #190 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post


The tradeoff is:
If you like a very crisp digital image in high APL scenes than the best projector I have ever seen are the Sim2 HT3000E and the Sim2 C3X 1080P

But if you like to watch film with its smooth film like quality and you are a former CRT owner who likes inky blacks than you will want to consider one of the LCOS projectors because the blacks in even the best dlp projectors will look gray to your eyes and the images will look harsh and brittle.

Me? I am still trying to decide

Very well said.
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post #191 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post

Beginning with the RS1 (and their HDILA RPTV line), newer JVC chips use a digital backplane with PWM, no longer analog control of the voltage.

BB

Brandon,

That,s interesting. I have read that you can control the LCOS panels both ways but I can not figure out how they would control the panels digitally because the response times are too slow, 7ms for pulse code modulation. I know they can do it but how do they do it?
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post #192 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Brandon,

That,s interesting. I have read that you can control the LCOS panels both ways but I can not figure out how they would control the panels digitally because the response times are too slow, 7ms for pulse code modulation. I know they can do it but how do they do it?

Let me clear up some confusion here about the change to a digital backplane in the newer devices.

The previous D-ILA devices had D/A driver chips that were external to the devices. The latest devices have a digital backplane that performs the final D/A on the device itself and removes some issues of crosstalk and ringing that, tho minimal, could still be seen in some test patterns. The PWM aspect relates to generating the analog voltage to drive the LC layer, not with respect to a PWM type concept for the actual visual image as in DLP technology.

The result of this is a device drive system free of any of the analog signal artifacts that were present in earlier D-ILA devices.

Tom Stites
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post #193 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 12:26 PM
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Tom,

Does JVC have any plans to line up manufacturing partners for its LCOS tech much like Texas Instruments has for dlp or Epson has done with LCD?

JVC makes a nice projector but I would be curious to see what someone else could do with theses panels.

Affable Nitwit
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post #194 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 12:55 PM
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Law,

Canon has been building projectors with our devices for a number of years and SEOS has been building a 4 panel product for the simulation market for a while.

I'm not aware of any near-term plans to sell devices or engines to other Mfr's. Taking a DLP or LCD chipset and developing a reasonably competitive projector is child's play compared to doing the same with LCOS...just ask Sony.

Tom Stites
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post #195 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

mlang46
If I forget lasers for a while what would be good specs for a lens within practicality?

zoom: 1.4-1.5?
F and f numbers?
Lens coatings?

thanks in advance

Ohlson you ask tough questions but lets take a look at whats required. the JVC chip is .7 inches wide and has 1980 pixels going across it so dividing the width of the chip by 1980 and again by 2 and converting this into mm I get a Nyqist cut off frequency of 56 lp/mm and for the DLP with a larger chip .95 it is 41 lp/mm which shows why it easier to design a lens for a DLP chips than it is for a LCOS chip. As far as lenses go bigger chips are better.

So the best resolution the chip can deliver is 56 lp and the lens can only degrade that performance it can not enhance it. Ideally on axis you would like to achieve 80 percent MTF at 56 lp/mm with an F2 lens and a zoom ratio of 2:1 and let the lens degrade past .7 field to 40 percent or less at 40 lp. The F2 lens with the better coatings should increase lumen output by 1.5. focal lengths 30-60mm

One interesting fact that I just read is that at 16 ftlamberts which is what is recommended for theater viewing brightness your visual acuity is only 2 arcmin which is exactly 1/2 of what it is at 100 ftlamberts. so if you want to see more turn up the light.

The coatings if you can afford them, less than a.1percent reflectivity per surface and I would keep lateral color distortion to less than .2 percent after lens assembly.

Also the lens which Fujinon supplies has 16 elements and should have been optimized for the illumination system used. what I think happened is that they took a standard Fujinon projection lens and optimized the back elements
to adjust the aberration balance correcting for the extended back focal length and the glass beamsplitter. Instead they should have designed that system from the light source to the screen and optimized the complete optical package.

Of course to make this lens affordable , you are going to have to use the CIA to
render a captured German optician from Zeiss to a small impoverished village in China and have him teach the peasants how to grind glass elements and assemble lenses.

Now explain to me why four LCOS panels are better than 3.
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post #196 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 04:23 PM
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tstites
I hope for more great things from JVC. Please apply what Canon does well to produce bright lcos projectors and add the SEOS 4-panel engine. Lasers are optional.
With a 4-panel approach I hope it is possible to optimize for brightness since there is dynamic range to spare.
best of luck

Mattias Ohlson
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post #197 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tstites View Post

Law,

Canon has been building projectors with our devices for a number of years and SEOS has been building a 4 panel product for the simulation market for a while.

I'm not aware of any near-term plans to sell devices or engines to other Mfr's. Taking a DLP or LCD chipset and developing a reasonably competitive projector is child's play compared to doing the same with LCOS...just ask Sony.

I'm with Ohlson. If you have any power over future JVC projectors, please GOD give us a 4 panel design!!

You've done amazing things with the native contrast of your DILA panels, but we really really want 500k-1 million:1 CRT levels of contrast.
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post #198 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Now explain to me why four LCOS panels are better than 3.

A 4th panel is used (or 2nd in the case of single chip dlp) to further multiply the native contrast of the projector.

The additional panel acts as a per pixel iris that modulates lumen ouput. Every transmissive/reflective fixed pixel panel on the market that has a light shining through/off of it is incapable of fully blocking incoming light. So instead of black actually being black (no light on-screen) we end up with greys and light where there should be none.
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post #199 of 237 Old 01-17-2008, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

Let me clear up some confusion here about the change to a digital backplane in the newer devices.

The previous D-ILA devices had D/A driver chips that were external to the devices. The latest devices have a digital backplane that performs the final D/A on the device itself and removes some issues of crosstalk and ringing that, tho minimal, could still be seen in some test patterns. The PWM aspect relates to generating the analog voltage to drive the LC layer, not with respect to a PWM type concept for the actual visual image as in DLP technology.

The result of this is a device drive system free of any of the analog signal artifacts that were present in earlier D-ILA devices.

Tom

thanks for the explanation. Do you know What limits the RS2 's ANSI Contrast
and what is the native intra cell contrast of the panels with the wiregrid polarizers before the projector lens. What I am trying to get at is , Say I have a row of lCOS cells turned completely on and the next row I have is turned completely off , what is the contrast ratio between the two rows at the chip level. also is the transmission maximum or minimum when voltage is applied or not applied. Is there crosstalk between cells.

How does a 4 panel system work at what are its advantages?
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post #200 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 08:37 AM
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mlang46
With reference to your request for the contrast between adjacent pixel rows this excerpt for a 2000 JVC white paper might be interesting.

4.2 Laser Illumination Sources
The xenon arc lamp has become the standard light source for
film-based projection and high brightness electronic displays.
Emerging laser light sources promise improved image quality
through improved MTF and color gamut. The polarization
properties of the laser output and the low divergence of the
beam lead to improvements in efficiency for small aperture
birefringent liquid crystal devices such as the D-ILA.
While the application of lasers to projection displays has been
reported for over 20 years, only recently has progress been made
in practical laser sources. These lasers show full-color visible
performance with greatly improved electrical-to-light
efficiencies. The full visible spectrum sources diode pumped
solid state lasers have been used as the illumination light
source for a projector using the 23mm SXGA D-ILA image
modulators.8 The results showed a sequential contrast ratio of
1330:1 and increases of 2-5 times in the modulation at high
spatial frequencies in the projected images.
The color gamut
area was twice as large as the SMPTE 240M color space and
actually two-thirds the total area inside uniform color space
spectrum locus. Speckle was maintained below visible
threshold for a display at SMPTE cinema standard brightness
(12 Ft-Lamberts). An efficiency of ~21/watt was achieved for
the 3000 lumen display.

4-panel
I have attached a zip-archive of a pdf from Brightside that is now aquired by Dolby. This pdf has no 4-panel lcos diagram but another document from them had one but I am sure you get the picture. There was one extra lcos panel after the recomibation of the rgb lightpaths but before the projection lens. Three rgb lasers surely should simplify the light engine.

 

HDR_projection.zip 318.2958984375k . file

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post #201 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 09:12 AM
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4 panel according to talk on the forum would be easy and cheap to do. There are people building their own 4 panel designs yet in the commercial market it has only hit the high end for planetariums and its very pricey. If all this stuff is available and its easy and cheap why are we not seeing ot as a viable option on the HT market. Do they not want us to have this or are they holding back on us. I dont get it. We've been talking for years about this stuff and I am sure we will have this same conversation next year when all new models from TI and Lcos based will show marginal improvement again Something is not adding up here.
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post #202 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 09:36 AM
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Alan G.
It might be "cheap and easy" to implement but "costly and a nightmare to perfect".

Negatives might be
Lost brightness although I think this can be held under control by trading some dynamic range to lose less brightness
Convergence and uniformity is not simpler

The simulation projectors probably offer very nice software to control gamut, gray scale, uniformity, convergence, blending and so on. The big cost is hardly a few extra components.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #203 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 09:46 AM
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All valid points Mattias and it puts it into perspective, thank you!
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post #204 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 11:53 AM
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I am willing to bet the loss in brightness is the issue inasmuch as they then need a bit brighter lamps, which entail louder fans, which seem to be a big marketing no-no.

BB
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post #205 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 11:57 AM
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Thanks everybody for the explanations. From the laser improvement of the JVC , it seems my theory that because of the non achromatic rotational response of liquid Crystals that these devices would see a large improvement in intra cell contrast if the light source was a narrow band linear polarized laser might be correct.

This means that the RS2 with its narrower band color filters should have a much better ANSI contrast than the 300:1 ratio measured on the RS1 by Greg Rogers.




After seeing the PDF I now understand how the fourth panel is used. Its obvious once you see the pictures duh! but I am wondering if anybody has built a prototype. It looks like the fastest implementation would be to modify an LCD projector and it looks like a clever lad with a hell of a lot of optical alignment equipment and some very good electrical and software engineers as friends could modify an existing projector as a prototype.

I recall my basement bomber days of my misspent youth ,when I used to build extremely high powered lasers in my back yard and test them at night.

I think the four panel design would have a bigger effect on image quality than you would get by replacing the white light source with a laser source , although doing both would be the cats meow.


I want one!
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post #206 of 237 Old 01-18-2008, 03:40 PM
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mlang46
JVC is an interesting company. They have been involved in Super High Vision development for a long time. That is roughly 30 Megapixels.
They are also involved in 4-panel research.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2007/en/tenji/t06.html
In this case they are thinking of limiting the color resolution compared to luma resolution to save bandwidth but it is the same principle. 4-panels and 1000000:1

Mattias Ohlson
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post #207 of 237 Old 01-19-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

mlang46
JVC is an interesting company. They have been involved in Super High Vision development for a long time. That is roughly 30 Megapixels.
They are also involved in 4-panel research.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2007/en/tenji/t06.html
In this case they are thinking of limiting the color resolution compared to luma resolution to save bandwidth but it is the same principle. 4-panels and 1000000:1

For front projectors you will start coming up against the limit of what is optically practical
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post #208 of 237 Old 01-19-2008, 01:54 PM
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My point was not the resolution of the SHV system (UHDTV) but the fact that JVC is no stranger to 4-panel use.
I can see that the demands get very expensive to meet in projection beyond HD.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #209 of 237 Old 02-01-2008, 07:11 PM
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FYI, Novalux is acquired as part of a USD300m joint venture between Arasor Corp and ZTE Corp to commercialize laser in TV, projector...

http://www.photonics.com/content/new.../14/90251.aspx

Looks like things are getting serious
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post #210 of 237 Old 02-02-2008, 08:07 AM
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4-panel is just one of several implementations of dual modulation for improving dynamic range so I think "dual modulation" is the more appropriate term that should be used in the discussions.
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