Epson 1080UB Calibration Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 114 Old 01-17-2009, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

First, you will want to use Natural mode, and I suggest my latest set of calibrations for the main menu and RGBCMY menu. Natural mode is called the same mode on the home version. Set the Gamma to the 2.4 preset. In the RGB menu, you my need to add to the red gain, and reduce the red offset to get better greys.

You've probably lost 25%-40% of your brightness. I'm at about 500 hours I think, and I've lost about 15-20%. Remember, the new bulb will start to dim right away too.

On the Epson, the Brightness Control in the main menu is how you turn the lamp to high or low mode. If you can stand the extra fan noise, you should run in high mode for the brightest picture, but you're getting close to end of lamp life. Epson claims 2000 hours if you use high lamp mode, and 3000 hours for low lamp mode. If the unit was used in low lamp mode until now, you should have life left in the bulb.

Dan

Thanks for all that Dan. I really like your settings. I am finding that the projector in anything but 'cinema Day' or 'Vivid' is simply too dim for my 106"...even in a completely darkened room. The bright modes are plenty bright, but blacks get compromised. ANSI contrast seems low as well.

Maybe its the bulb. My problem is that I told the dealer not to order the bulb until I decide whether or not I will return it....so I won't be able to test it with a new bulb.

I also noticed a convergence problem. Red is slightly north, green slightly south. I don't really notice it from ~10 feet back...but it is there. Is there a way to adjust this in the service menu?

I wish I could evaluate one with a new bulb...because this one is getting beaten handily by the Benq W5000 I am testing against it right now (it has a new bulb). I will post some comparison shots if I get a chance.

Mike
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post #92 of 114 Old 01-17-2009, 08:29 AM
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You can't fix the convergence. Most 1080UB's will be about about 1 pixel for one or two of the colors, but it can vary depending on screen location. You will not notice it at 10 feet, but it can impact sharpness slightly.

With that old of a bulb, you are loosing a LOT of light.

You should go to www.projectorreviews.com and see what Art got for both projectors in calibrated best mode for light output. He will have the lumens rating for both.

Well, I did the homework for you:
Epson:
Best mode High lamp mode: 468 lumens
Low lamp: 374
Art considers Theater Black 1 mode "best mode", but I have found Natural to be better, and it also increases the lumens a little from the numbers above.
The brightest that Art could get the Epson was 1818 in Dynamic mode

Benq
Best mode High Lamp Mode: 472 Lumens (iris at 2)
Low Lamp mode 379 lumens
Art considers Cinema mode "best mode"
The brightest that Art could get the Benq was 1270 in Dynamic mode with Brillian Color turned on.

So with new bulbs they are almost identical in best calibrated mode, but the Epson is significantly brighter in dynamic mode. They are both excellent projectors, so just keep the one you prefer. I'm not sure the Benq has such extensive CMS (Color Management System) control though.

Dan
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post #93 of 114 Old 01-17-2009, 08:45 PM
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Thanks Dan. I posted a few comments on the BenQ thread and some samples. I thought I would do a shorter version here. BTW, the calibration controls on the BenQ are similar to the epson....very comprehensive.

Note: All photos were shot RAW with my DSLR. I set the camera on a table and used long exposures on a remote release. My goal was to compare black levels...so bright areas are overexposed as the PJ has a wider dynamic range than the camera (which I have deliberately not made any attempt to compensate to get a 'processed shot'. I set the camera so it would get at least some level from the blackest areas of the image. Both projectors have been put through a simple calibration (I did not white balance the images so ignore colour issues). The screen is a Draper luma that I painted with Behr silverscreen. The pictures are taken in a completely dark room. I used Dan's settings in 'Natural mode' with the lamp set to high on the epson. The BenQ is using cinema mode with the iris clamped at zero.

Here are some from SW ep 2. The Benq on the left, the epson on the right. I actually had both projectors going at the same time...each on a different part of the screen in a completely dark room.





Here is my desktop...benQ on left, epson on right.



Here is part of that image at 100%, showing the visibility of the convergence issue (not really a significant issue for me).



The interesting part of all this is that black levels on the BenQ do very well against even a dimmed 1080ub bulb. Real world contrast is no contest at all. BenQ wins that hands down. I will update this if I can get my hands on a new bulb for testing. I don't think it will help the epson for black levels (which I would put it close to par with the benq...even though the epson has a dim bulb). It might help with brightness and contrast though for the epson (although I am not convinced the ansi contrast will beat the BenQ.

A few other notes:
1. the benQ is much quieter than the epson.
2. the bright modes are brighter on the epson. Vivid mode had better contrast...still doesn't touch the BenQ...and the vivid mode has worse blacks compared to cinema. Whites, though, are almost blinding in that mode in my dark room.

Clearly this isn't fair with a 2000 hour bulb on the epson vs a brand new BenQ bulb. I will see if the dealer will order a new one and still allow a return. I hope so...I have read so many good things about this projector I want to give it a chance before I send it back.

Mike
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post #94 of 114 Old 01-20-2009, 05:09 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15607437

For all you calibrators out there, I have created an Excel file that I hope will help you. Please see the attached link for the Excel download. It allows full charting for all color saturations on a CIE gamut chart, color saturation error, color brightness error, gamma targeting, color brightness targeting...

Please provide feedback on how I may be able to add to or improve the worksheet. Thank you.

Dan
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post #95 of 114 Old 01-26-2009, 08:31 AM
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Stereomandan,

I have used your calibration numbers (with just slight modification) that you posted back in post #60 using the theater black 1 mode. Are you now saying that the "natural" mode is actually better? You are focusing on color, but what about other aspects of the image such as black level, shadow detail, contrast, etc. Can the "natural setting" with your posted calibration numbers actually exceed the calibrated theater 1 mode? Just curious. I'm always interested in eeking out the best possible image from my 1080UB.
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post #96 of 114 Old 01-26-2009, 09:19 AM
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I found natural to work well, but only at night time. My pj is in our family room and while I make every attempt to control the lighting, some does bleed through. So during daytime, I use Cinema Day (living room) with most of the settings on default. The colors are off, but it's so much brighter that I can see far better playing video games and such.
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post #97 of 114 Old 01-26-2009, 09:21 AM
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ricwhite,

Natural mode is a better color mode in all aspects. The lumen output is a little higher in natural mode, which is a good thing. Gamma and black level are just as good as Theater Black 1. The colors are more accurate in Natural mode.

Give my settings in post #83 a try. You can always go back to the other calibration. You will notice that the colors are much more saturated, but they are more accurate in the majority of the color gamut than my calibration in post #60. You may need to tweak your gains and offsets though, versus where mine are set. They are very projector specific. Just throw up some gray screens and adjust the red and blue gain for the brighter gray pattern so that it looks gray, and the offsets for the darker gray pattern. Don't touch the green gain or offset.

Dan
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post #98 of 114 Old 03-18-2009, 06:39 AM
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Time to get this thread back on the first page

I got some issues doing calibration of my 1080UB unit (TW-2000) using an i1 meter.

Have run thru a couple of calibrations now (using Curt's guide), but most of the times I end up with a very distinct red (especially when showing brightness and contrast test patterns (the flashing bars is redish) from a REC 709 HDDVD test disc).

This is using low brightness mode. Have done both with and without iris. With iris it's a pain to get it correct. Slightly easier to get it "correct" without iris.
Correct according to HCFR and the i1... but always with the redish flashing bars.

In my RGB settings I usually end up with a fair amount of Offset and Gain on the red in order to get my grayscale correct, which I would presume give me the redish flashing bars.
Typically I would expect these to be flashing greying bars.

I see that under the RGBCMY settings I also in many instances must go to the +/- extreme in order to get to the defined xy-parameters, if at all.
Typically this also involves reducing saturation. Doing this the Y goes down drastically, and I have tried to compensate with increasing brightness.

I feel a bit awkward when I reach the extremes, as it don't feel right...
Is my assumption about increasing brightness to compensate for reduced saturation correct? (Curt's guide do not say anything about it, rather he says that if the Y goes down drastically, let it be)

My initial starting point is:
6500K
low brightness
HD setting
iris off
HDMI video range extended
Epson superwhite off
Gamma 2.2

Wrt gamma it seems that I need to set it to 2.4 or custom in order to get it anywhere close to 2.22.
The best fit I get using a custom gamma.
Which lead me to another question. When is it correct to adjust gamma?
Prior to everything? After greyscale? or?

I found an Epson document online describing how to do a ISF cal. using a VP and initial settings for that.
That document had the following initial settings:
7500K
High brightness
iris off
HD setting
Epson superwhite on
Gamma 2.2

Can't explain why.

One last thing.
In curt's guide a typical value for a front PJ is ftL 12-16. I get nowhere close to that. Typically I can get up to ftL 7. Tried various positions/angles etc on the i1.
My screen is a few years old now, I think it is a whitish type with gain 1.1.
Brand might be Projecta or similar.

Any inputs are welcome.

Thanks!
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post #99 of 114 Old 03-18-2009, 10:26 AM
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Can you be more specific about which flashing bars are you talking about?

In my experience, the most accurate mode for colors is Natural (I have measured all of the color modes).

If you need to adjust the red gains and offsets a lot to get proper greyscale, then try a different color temperature. If you need to add a lot of red gain, then try moving your color temp setting to 6000, or 5500k. This will help. If you need to remove a lot of red gain, then go higher in color temp, like 7000 or higher.

Also, the skintone setting impacts the color balance for R, G and B. Lower numbers increase red, and higher numbers increase green. If you change the skintone, you will need to redo the grayscale.

You should adjust brightness and contrast first, then your gains and offsets (grayscale), and then gamma. Then go to the RGBCMY menu. After you are done with that, you can go back and double check your gamma and grayscale.

Starting with main color setting at around -12, and tint at -5 helps with the RGBCMY menu so that you don’t need to adjust the colors quite so drastically.

By the way, my red also needs a lot of adjustment. I’m at 27 gain for red, and -11 for offset. Green and Blue both only range from 0 to 2. It looks great though, and works fine. (my color temp is set to 6000, and skintone to zero)

My ft. lamberts measure very low as well, but I don't think you can rely on the HCFR data with an i1 for ft lamberts. You need a different probe.

Dan
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post #100 of 114 Old 03-19-2009, 04:52 AM
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Thanks for the feedback.

The flashing bars on the brightness/contrast test pattern are from the test disc downloaded from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I had another go yesterday and this time it seems like I'm getting closer.
What I did differently was:
1. basic brightness/contrast based on 709 test disc
2. color/tint to get red and cyan in the ballpark
3. RGBCMY adjustment (again to get it into the ballpark)
4. RGB/greyscale
5. Readjust the above to get closer to the target values

I know I have shuffled the steps differently from most guides, but at least now my measured values are not very far off the target.

Red is good, Green is good, Blue is off by 0.030 on y, secondaries are good as well as greyscale (30-90% < 2). Gamma is off slightly (2.1).

I have a feeling that doing RGB prior to RGBCMY do mess things up a bit on my unit.
Blue is my problem color at the moment. No matter what I do there is very little change in the y-axis (can get it from 0.0090 to 0.0088, but nowhere near 0.0060)
Y is a little low on red, but fairly ok on the rest (within the ballpark from the 709 spec)

As I can't get correct red Y with the correct xy measurement, I might try to adjust it away from the correct xy coordinate, but try to adjust it such that the angles/lines from green and blue is fairly similar to 709. Would that work?

Maybe I should post my results here for you guys to have a look at.
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post #101 of 114 Old 03-19-2009, 08:26 AM
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Natural mode is the best color mode.

The blue primary can be moved much easier if you are in Natural mode. I had the same problem with blue until I went to the Natural mode.

I know it will totally change your calibration to use Natural mode, but red and blue line up much better in Natural mode to the REC709 gamut.

Dan
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post #102 of 114 Old 03-19-2009, 05:09 PM
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I did not know the iOne wasn't good for measuring light output. The ft. lamberts measured only around 7 for me as well with ~350 hrs on my bulb on a Hi Power screen. I never understood this because the screen lights up my room and can cause me to wince when a movie goes from a very dark scene to an outdoor scene.

Dan,
Could you put all of your best (most recent) settings into one post? I'd like to give them a try but keep getting confused on where you are starting from. Thanks!
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post #103 of 114 Old 03-19-2009, 05:28 PM
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Note: The picture below are only blurry because I took these without a flash, and I couldn't keep my hand steady enough.

My bulb has 777 hours on it.

Here are my latest settings:
Gamma:
Put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0
Main menu:

RGBCMY:

The settings below(RGB) vary a LOT from projector to projector, so take these at your own risk.
RGB:


Dan
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post #104 of 114 Old 03-19-2009, 08:20 PM
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There you go. My latest calibration is above.

Dan
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post #105 of 114 Old 03-20-2009, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Natural mode is the best color mode.

The blue primary can be moved much easier if you are in Natural mode. I had the same problem with blue until I went to the Natural mode.

I know it will totally change your calibration to use Natural mode, but red and blue line up much better in Natural mode to the REC709 gamut.

Dan

Thank you!
Indeed the Natural mode expanded the color gamut to envelope all three primary colors.
Getting them to their correct positions was another matter though... gave up after a few trials. Your idea is still a viable one, and I will probably get back to it later.
Did some more adjustment on the HD mode, but still not there.
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post #106 of 114 Old 03-20-2009, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase View Post

I did not know the iOne wasn't good for measuring light output. The ft. lamberts measured only around 7 for me as well with ~350 hrs on my bulb on a Hi Power screen. I never understood this because the screen lights up my room and can cause me to wince when a movie goes from a very dark scene to an outdoor scene.

Same here. Get around 7 ftL from a good setup of the probe.
Around 800h on the bulb.
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post #107 of 114 Old 03-20-2009, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Here are my latest settings:
Gamma:
Put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0

RGB:


Dan

Good feedback, thanks!

I need to check these out and see if they indeed could work on my unit.

You have a lot of red gain. How is the flashing bars from the contrast pattern (on the 709 disc I mentioned)? (or any other light gray boxed/bars on a white background)

On my unit I tried to reduce green and blue (to avoid too much increase in red offset and gain). That worked fine on the greyscale, but on the expence of the luminance.

A tricky quest for perfection
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post #108 of 114 Old 03-20-2009, 05:59 AM
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You can keep using HD mode, but it is not the optimal mode. Blue and Red primary hue do not track well with changes in saturation with HD mode. They track very well in Natural mode.

All my flashing bars are neutral shade of grey. I have found that if you set the main contrast too high, the greyscale will become nonlinear at high APL's. My picture would track grey very well up to 90% grey, but then get too red at 100% and I couldn't fix it. When I bumped by contrast from 11 to 7, my greyscale improved significantly, and my gamma also improved. ( I use a PS3, so your contrast settings may be different)

As you can see, I needed to reduce my green gain by three points since my red gain was maxed out. Is does sacrifice some lumens, but I'm o.k. with that. Normally I say not to touch green gain and offset, but in this situation I had to. Here is my greyscale tracking with the settings above.


Dan
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post #109 of 114 Old 03-20-2009, 07:15 AM
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Thanks.

You are a source of good information

I understand your advices and what you want me to do. I will see if I can find time later tonight and check.

My sources are a LG BH-200 (with a HD-DVD version of the 709 disc), as well as a VP50Pro with built-in test patterns. Although the latter uses 100% fields for pri/sec colors the changes are minimal wrt the 100% window patterns on the 709 disc.
In any case, when using the VP50 directly I eliminate any changes/errors the BH-200 or Amplifier might introduce.
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post #110 of 114 Old 03-22-2009, 05:00 AM
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Alright. Had a long night the other day, and one tonight
Tried stereomandan settings: Some of them I discarded, some I used.

Attached are my results so far.
The position of the primaries are still somewhat a bit off. I managed to get blue right, and had to interpolate red and green such that the CIE triangle now is correct B->G and B->R. Adjusting while looking at the CIE diagram was a big help
Calculated the luminace for G, R and Yellow based on their coordinate using a Gamut Calculator.

Gamma is still a bit off, and I might look into that (Red is a bit high)
I want to enable Iris and from a measurement the iris messed with a lot of things (luminance of primary and secondary colors ++) so I might just go from here and adjust settings with Iris enabled.

Comments?

Global settings:
Auto Iris: Off
Epson Superwhite: Off
HDMI Video Range : Extended
Brightness : Low
Color Mode : Natural
Skin Tone : 0
Color Temp : 6000K
Gamma: Custom
Brightness -7
Contrast 11
Color Sat. -2
Tint -7
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #111 of 114 Old 03-22-2009, 06:39 PM
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Here's the complete HCFR file.

 

HCFR.zip 4.529296875k . file
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post #112 of 114 Old 01-14-2010, 03:01 PM
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to those calibrating are any of you using or have you used the gretagmacbeth eye-one UVcut?
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post #113 of 114 Old 05-18-2013, 11:35 PM
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Does anyone know how to do a factory reset or how to access a service menu? I'm stuck on an iris error message and I want to make sure a simple reset won't fix it before I take it to be serviced.
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post #114 of 114 Old 05-23-2013, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer7364 View Post

Does anyone know how to do a factory reset or how to access a service menu? I'm stuck on an iris error message and I want to make sure a simple reset won't fix it before I take it to be serviced.

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/plhc108u/plhc108uug.pdf

Page 42 mentions some different reset procedures, and you might try unplugging it for about 30 mins. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366241/my-epson-3010-projector-just-arrived/1260#post_21891836 has instructions on accessing the menu on a 3010, they might be similar, but I doubt anything you try will be able to fix the issue your having. You could also just try running it with the iris off I guess, and see if you can live without it?

Some settings suggested here, http://tw3200.blogspot.com/2011/03/epson-eh-tw3200-right-adjustment.html might help improve the image w/o the iris if you wanna try 'em.
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