COMING SOON (well, tonight)...Sony VPL-VW40 Review... - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 03:59 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the Pro 1080 UB comes with 3 years warranty, a spare bulb a ceiling mount and ISF calibration capability so wouldn't that account for some of the price differences between it and the VW40?

To me it looks like some of the screen shots from the 1080 UB in Arts review seem better. Of course this could just be my preference.
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post #62 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 04:05 PM
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I don't think art's methodology of taking screen shots is stable enough to draw distinct assessments from. Some his RS2 screen shots in that review look worse than the RS1 and VW40 which I know can't be the case.

Great review though, both Art's and Jason's. I would like to hear more about how the VW40 handles 24p, that detail seems to have escaped both reviews. Something also to consider when comparing FP's like the UB and the 40.
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post #63 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 05:09 PM
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http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/vpl-vw40/index.php

Here is a link to Art Freirman's VW40 review at Projector Reviews.

Excellent review as usual.

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post #64 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

I like the name Mini Pearl.

Yes. You have to have a tag on a string hanging off of the side of the PJ too!
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post #65 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Actually the VW40 doesn't have pixel correction that I saw (granted mine was near perfect, so I didn't have to look that throughly. It is a 1 year warranty.

I prefer not to publically compare projectors for obvious reasons, but anyone who wants my opinion, feel free to contact me.

Sony's MSRP is $3499, but I believe there MAP is $2999, thus the reason that is what you find it listed for on their site (and Art's review).

Hi Jason,

I understand you don't want to compare different projectors publicly, but you did state in your review that the black level of the VW40 is "a good amount better than any competing LCD". I would just like you to clarify that statement whether "any competing LCD" included the Epson 1080UB which you just reviewed recently before the VW40.

Thanks!
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post #66 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

Yes. You have to have a tag on a string hanging off of the side of the PJ too!

Hahahaha

Domino's donÂt fall all at once, they fall one at a time...
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post #67 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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The purpose of my review is not to bash one projector vs. another, and so I don't like to post such comparisons publically. The simple fact is that the Sony and the Epson both have their pros and cons. Admittedly, I prefer the LCOS/SXRD/DILA technology units to LCD's. Most people are aware of that. It isn't that I don't appreciate what an LCD can do for the money, in fact the Epson is one of the best LCD's I have seen to date and I don't think anyone would be unhappy with it. For some, it may just be a better bet for them (for instance, bright corners aren't really an issue on LCD like they are on SXRD/DILA/LCOS). But on the topic on hand...Art's claim that the Epson has better black levels whereas I claim the Sony does...I supposed proof is in the pudding. So, read on...

SETUP:
Canon Rebel XTi (10.1MP DSLR), Manually set to 100ISO, f/5.0, 30" shutter (in other words, the camera is doing what I tell it to, and thus it is doing the EXACT same thing for each picture below). The camera was mounted to a tripod and I have a remote shutter release so the camera is 100% still. I positioned the 2 projectors with the exact same screen size, both with max iris (thus max contrast and best black levels), at the same exact throw ratio. In other words, these are setup, for lack of a better word, identically. Oh, both fully calibrated to ISF standards (no preset modes, all manually done as they should be).

Epson ProCinema1080UB @0IRE Full Screen Window:


Sony VPL-VW40 @0IRE Full Screen Window:


The point of this post again, is not to say one is better than the other. In fact you can see the bright corners on the Sony which to some may be more objectionable than the higher black levels of the Epson. This is merely to backup what I was saying in my review...it has better ultimate black levels than any LCD I have seen to date.

I should also mention that again, this is a 30" shutter exposure. So both results are exaggerated as compared to being here in person (equally of course, so the relative results are consistent).

NOTE: Corrected image for Sony (I had taken many pictures to get the results, and it was pointed out to me that I inadvertently posted the 15 second Sony picture. I changed it.
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post #68 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 08:57 PM
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Interesting. My RS1 has much worse black levels than those shown for the VW40 and it is supposed to have better blacks. Hence the danger of screenshots I guess.
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post #69 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Well 2 things...first off, I have tested over 100 RS1's to date. They range quite a bit so it is hard to say at what level you are achieving. Secondly, you are comparing your RS1 in person to screenshots. The only way to know for sure would be to 1) use my camera/setup identically and compare or 2) get a VW40 in your room to compare.

As a side note, the VW40 I tested had slightly ABOVE the average on/off contrast of the RS1's I have measured.
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post #70 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 09:31 PM
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How would you say the VW40 compared to the VW60s you've tested? Just in this area.
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post #71 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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VW60 is a good amount better (more similar to an RS2)....again, in regards to black level specifically.
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post #72 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 10:21 PM
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I just came from the Sony website and they list the price for the VW40 at $2999. Here is a link if desired.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665307855
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post #73 of 141 Old 02-13-2008, 11:57 PM
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It sounds like it will be a great little projector

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #74 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 02:22 AM
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wow the screenshots are impressive...
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post #75 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 02:40 AM
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Jason, YOU are my valentine!

Seriously, what you did to demostrate black level is the best and most objective example anyone has ever taken the time to provide. So many screenshots are NOT done in the precise way you have shown.

I REALLY REALLY would implore, beg and bribe you to take this exact same picture with every unit you review and keep a gallery for reference. As long as the circumstances are the same with every "black level test" picture, it would FINALLY give people an unbiased, eperical way to compare black levels.

To me, this would be the most important part of any review I read.

Kudos, kudos, and more please :-)

PS: Those were 30 second exposures? Wow! That W40 sure has a nice, pure black. I know you'd never see it under normal viewing conditions, but that blue haze in the Epson is very surprising!
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post #76 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 03:51 AM
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I agree. Black level is the most important thing for me, and is also one projector parameter that can actually be measured and photographed.

Too often blacks are confused with contrast. Yes they are connected, but as is evident by the love here for the High Power, you can easily have great contrast with crappy blacks.

As I mentioned in my thread about perspective in reviews, it really bugs me when people subjectively praise blacks for various projectors when it is as easy as pie to objectively see and demonstrate. If your blacks from sidebars are not as dark as your screen masking they are not 'black'.

If you can take two photos like Jason's above, then you simply cannot say that both have 'good' blacks. Or are 'close'. Did both have iris engaged?

Black is either black or it isn't. The Vw40 exhibits a blue shift and isn't quite 'black', but it is heck of a lot better than the Epson.

I agree with Mojo that this shot, or its equivalent, should be compulsory in all reviews. And it is the easiest and most repeatable. Set up camera. Project 0 IRE. Turn out lights. Set manual exposure. Click. Wait.

I'd love to see this shot with an RS1, VW60, VW200 or in fact all projectors Jason tests.

I have the same camera so I'll be trying it out on mine. It's also a really good way to see if you have any light leakage into the room.

In a really black room with a really black projector, 30 seconds shouldn't be enough. Ideally, there would no exposure long enough to reveal anything of the screen.

Thanks again Jason.
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post #77 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Black is either black or it isn't. The Vw40 exhibits a blue shift and isn't quite 'black', but it is heck of a lot better than the Epson.

I see no blue in Sony's (0 ire) shot but heavy blue with Epson's and heavy black elevation compared to the Sony's. It is your monitor adding the blue tint. Sony looks solid black with a very very slight hint of green. That is actually contrary to his gray scale tracking of the sony that shows heavy red bias which is not present in actual screen shot. As Jason indicated himeself it could have been his colorimeter probe wrong sensitivity in the lower range.
Good work Jason.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #78 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 04:53 AM
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hey jason, is the difference as great in a scene. I guess theres no way to duplicate this for an ansi pic huh?

My sono build

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post #79 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

I see no blue in Sony's (0 ire) shot but heavy blue with Epson's and heavy black elevation compared to the Sony's. It is your monitor adding the blue tint. Sony looks solid black with a very very slight hint of green. That is actually contrary to his gray scale tracking of the sony that shows heavy red bias which is not present in actual screen shot. As Jason indicated himeself it could have been his colorimeter probe wrong sensitivity in the lower range.
Good work Jason.

I have a (supposedly) color correct monitor at work which shows the blue tinge on both. Worse on the Epson of course.

I work in advertising so they are supposed to be calibrated correctly, but who knows. The colors look pretty much the same on my monitor at home, more bluish than greenish.

But now you mention it, I do wonder why the Epson is so blue. On a 0 IRE pattern it should be grey, as should the Sony's light corners. Jason's camera should be good enough to get the color right, so while one may be brighter than the other in the blacks, neither should have this much blue/green.
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post #80 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 05:17 AM
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He already said Sony tracks the scale verywell hence there shouldn't be any blue bias.
I saw the screen shot on my calibrated monitor and optoma 7100 and saw no blue whatsoever both running at d65.

What I see is blue shading issue on the far left.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #81 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 05:53 AM
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Yes, that's what's makes me wonder if there is a camera issue. Both were calibrated to D65 so neither should show any special colour bias. It doesn't affect the black level issue but the 'greys' on both are clearly not neutral to me.

Still, I'm not a colour fiend (except in this thread) so I don't really care except that some Sony reviews (of the VW60) have commented on the blue push to the blacks and mentioned that by removing said push you can get them even lower.

For Lvisneau, I don't think an ANSI pic would be as useful. There's the issue of ANSI anyway, plus we are adding white level to the equation, and also how the camera would handle it.
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post #82 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Canon Rebel XTi (10.1MP DSLR), Manually set to 100ISO, f/5.0, 30" shutter (in other words, the camera is doing what I tell it to, and thus it is doing the EXACT same thing for each picture below).

Woohoo a fixed reference point.

May I suggest a further refinement to your methods?
Set Colour Balance on a 100% IRE with the pj that is closest to D65.
Use an 18% grey card in that field and expose solely for that. I would use fixed focal length wide open to minimize shutter time non-linearities and wide open will not have depth of field factored in since its a 2D field and lthe lens should be good enough for all but the most critical assessment of sharpness.

ted
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post #83 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 06:15 AM
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No digital projector has great blacks though some digitals are significantly better than other digitals. No problems taking IRE 0 pictures in any perfectly black (no light) room, there will always be enough light hitting the screen from any turned on digital projector at IRE 0 to take a longish exposure. Properly set upCRTs are still champs here.

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post #84 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Yes, that's what's makes me wonder if there is a camera issue. Both were calibrated to D65 so neither should show any special colour bias. It doesn't affect the black level issue but the 'greys' on both are clearly not neutral to me.

He said Sony tracked the scale well afterward. But I did not read that about the Epson. Yes Epson could have been calibrated but not sure it tracks as well aftercalibration. Epson looks like not only it doesn't have a great black level it is heavily blue biased based on the shot posted here.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #85 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No digital projector has great blacks though some digitals are significantly better than other digitals. No problems taking IRE 0 pictures in any perfectly black (no light) room, there will always be enough light hitting the screen from any turned on digital projector at IRE 0 to take a longish exposure. Properly set upCRTs are still champs here.

Agree! With my CRT I cannot even take a picture of 0 IRE.

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post #86 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 06:57 AM
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So Jason, are the 1080p/24hz issues gone or not?

I guess is not that important then.
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post #87 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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In my brief playing with the unit I did not notice any 1080p24 issues, but I cannot say for 100% certainty that they are gone.

The Sony tracks near perfectly to D65. The Epson is not so lucky. I can get it to track very well at 100, 90, 80, 70...but there usually is some sacrifice at the lower IRE's.

I could start working on these shots, but people still have to remember they are screen shots.

No, using a movie scene wouldn't likely show anything as there would be lighter colors in that scene. Because of this, I would have to lower the exposure time substantially so that it didn't clip the whites, and at that point the black levels would appear black regardless.
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post #88 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll add that I think part of the problem with the blue tint is the 30" exposure time...it doesn't quite appear that blue in real life (nor does the Sony corners).
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post #89 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 10:07 AM
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Just put in my order for the Sony VW40 and the Onkyo 875.
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post #90 of 141 Old 02-14-2008, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

FYI...another member pointed out that I made a mistake. I mentioned it in the note on my picture post. Sorry about the confusion!
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