Help me get rid of my CRT! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I have been living in this ever fatiguing dilemna since I moved to my new house. My beautifull Marquee 9" have no place in my new home theater and because of its throw distance and size I will have to move to digital.
When I moved in, I decided to allocated 4K for a new digital knowing how fast they depreciate and how fast the tech advance. 4K seemed like the sweet spot. 4 month later, having read every thread on every new PJs: Sim D80, RS-1,RS-2, 11S2, VW60-VW200 ... I got tired enough that I raised my budget to 10K and even then, I coudn't pick. The main problem is wher I am working now, its is impossible to audition any PJ and thus I will have to rely on forum members over here.
Just to let you know where I am coming from:

I owned 1 LCD (sanyo PLV-70), 1 DLP (NEC 1000HT), and my current CRT.

LCD is no no for me. The DLP had ok black, I wasn't bothered by RBE but the PIC just looked cartoonish with lots of digital artifacts espacially in the dark scenes. I went to CES 3 years ago, and among all the PJ available I felt in love with the CRT FP in the DTS Room (clean, deep, detailed, and smooth pic even on SD material!). The only digital that came close was the William Meridian JVC with 1080p Chip and 2000:1 contrast. Even though It lacked CRT black level, the pic was very clean, without any noticable digital artifacts.

I came really close on picking the RS-2 (LC maching like the meridian) but convergence and center/corner focus issues had me thinking twice especially that It will be shipped to me and I won't be able to return It after it get Quality controlled. The marantz seemed like a good alternative. It have >10K contrast, it is sharp and with an ND filter I can achieve descent black. But I lived with a DLP 3 years ago and it had many artifacts that kept distracting me when viewing. The sony HD200 seemed like a good compromise machine (zone convergence, good lense) but Its weak native contrast and Price kept me away.

Guys, do you have any sugestions?
Should I choose one now or wait another 3,6 or 12 months.... (PS I am really tired of waiting). Or maybe get a VW60 now and wait for a good replacement.

tkx for your help.
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post #2 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

...Guys, do you have any sugestions?
Should I choose one now or wait another 3,6 or 12 months.... (PS I am really tired of waiting). Or maybe get a VW60 now and wait for a good replacement.

tkx for your help.

If you wait on the next best replacement you will never buy.
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post #3 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 08:24 AM
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The RS2 would probably be your "current" best bet for under 10K : RS2/CRT
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post #4 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Nothing in this forum will beat your 9" Marquee. That's so sad to get rid of it I wish I had enough money to own something like that! Personally I'd tear down a wall and live with it being slightly cold than get rid of it. I'm thinking of getting an 8500LC 8" myself with proper red and green c-elements.

I don't own the house I am currently living in, otherwise I would have done that . CRT prices are going down, I am sure you ll find 1 if you wait. 3 years ago, I upgraded mine with 9" tubes and modded all the electronics for more then 8K! Now you can get complete 1 for third the price....
I am not expecting digital to give me all the PQ, but something close enough to keep me focused on the movie and not the display. Right now my CRT is sitting in the middle of my new "theater" where it is taking half the space . Won't let it go till I find something else. hopefully soon....
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post #5 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

The RS2 would probably be your "current" best bet for under 10K : RS2/CRT

How do you like your new RS-1? is it sharper then your CRT? How about motion resolution? Does it keep good resolution with fast movements?
re RS-2, like I said, I am concerned about panel registration with long shipping distance especially that It will be costly for me to return it if any misalignment happens in route. Hence I prefer a single ship PJ or one with dynamic convergence.
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post #6 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 09:55 AM
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I agree with RobZ

Coming from CRT and a budget under 10k get the RS2. You will be very pleased.
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post #7 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

How do you like your new RS-1? is it sharper then your CRT? How about motion resolution? Does it keep good resolution with fast movements?
re RS-2, like I said, I am concerned about panel registration with long shipping distance especially that It will be costly for me to return it if any misalignment happens in route. Hence I prefer a single ship PJ or one with dynamic convergence.

The only CRT displays that I have are a 65" RPTV and Sony 34" tube. With all of the digital FP's that I've owned, none have really approached the black level of these except for the RS1 with an ND filter and the VW60 (when using fixed iris setting choked down). The RS1 has a bunch of things that are in need of change (elevated corners, uniformity, etc) but in the end throws a fantastic image. I can only guess that the RS2 is even better. Motion resolution on my RS1 is not quite as smooth with pans as the VW60 when both are displaying 1080p24 but it is great nevertheless. I have no real complaints about motion resolution.

As far as convergence goes, the VW60 has the ability to adjust though a bit to general of an adjustment. This is another area where the RS1 is bested by the Sony. You may want to consider having an RS2 shipped double boxed with extra foam padding in the outer box. I'm sure it wouldn't cost too much more.

Also, the VW200 seems like a great projector but in my opinion paying that much for a projector with a dynamic iris is questionable.
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post #8 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 10:51 AM
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Not sure if this is another CRT trolling thread or not, but the first thing you should decide is what screen you're going to use. Material, size and gain. Based on that, you'll have to check if a possible digital projector is bright enough for your needs.

LCD is not for me as well, so I'll leave that out. 1-chip DLP is not for me either, I can spot rainbows from miles away. But if you're not bothered by RBE or can't see it at all, I see no reason why you shouldn't check out 1-chip machines from Sim2, Marantz and PD.

3-chip is out of your budget, so I won't comment on those.

When it comes to LCoS/SXRD, I'm not sure why you say that the on/off contrast of the VW-200 kept you away. Sure it's over your budget, but it's on/off CR is more than double of the Meridian you saw and seemed to like. With the DI even more. And it has other benefits that makes it special over the JVC, but it comes at a price. Is it worth it? You pay, so you decide.

Regarding that 9" CRT rules comment... pretty much anything on this forum will beat 9" in all areas, except for overall black level and in some cases on/off CR when properly calibrated.

I've owned CRTs for years, my last CRT was a 9" as well, I still have it sitting in my basement. The first digital I could live with was a Sony Qualia 004, I'm really not missing the CRT anymore with anything I play around with (LCoS, SXRD and 3-chip DLP, all 1080p).

I think LCoS and SXRD is the most film like you'll see, I prefer the overall look of it over DLP, but DLP has some benefits as well, such as much higher ansi CR and brightness. At some point there's no other choice, good luck with a 15' wide AT screen and a LCoS/SXRD.

If brightness isn't an issue for you, I think you'd be more than happy with a projector from JVC or Sony. No way you'll ever want to go back to CRT. Good luck hunting.

- Stephan
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post #9 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 11:02 AM
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RS2/HD100 is a good one for you. Check it out!

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #10 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 11:24 AM
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With good source material I think you would be happy with any of the new 1080p projectors. Like you, I had a Nec ht 1000, and saw the artifacts in the dark scenes(dithering), and at the time just hated the look of lcds. Well, I set aside a large budget for a new projector, but I like getting the best bang for the buck and ended up with a new epson 1080ub. While the blacks are not by no means crt like, they will rival a rs1, and if you need it it has a lot of light in reserve.

For those about to rock we salute you!
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post #11 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Screen size is less then 110" and room is paper painted black. Hence brightness requirements are low. Also I found that I am more bothered with artifiacts (macro blocking, noise, dithering) when I push my CRT contrast up.
I can see that there is a general concensus on the RS2. I appreciate all of your inputs.
The only last things that keeps me from pulling the triger is Jason review of the Marantz 11S2 and its amazing specs (Great optics, great contrast...). I don't want to downplay DLPs based on a 3 years old Product (NEC 1000). Like Jerry, I was bothered with dithering and noise especially in dark materials. but 3 years is a century in Digital. So is it bold to say that DLP still need a clean material in order to have good PQ? A lot of my screening is still DVD and Cable SD material. Is there anyone here who disliked DLPs 3 years ago but changed his mind now?
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post #12 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 03:24 PM
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I own XG1352LC and have owned several 720p units.
Coming from CRT get a unit with good color gamut.
New line of Sony's are good in that respect with good black level.
Any of these units would be brighter and perhaps sharper depending on condition of your own CRT but they wouln't offer better details other than better edge definition.
CRT produce more realistic mtion than any fixed panel. However SXRD(LCos) is the closest choice for CRT'rs who want similar PQ. Otherwise Sim2 DLP single chip are also great but more expensive.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #13 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 04:06 PM
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COW,

If you set the white and black levels correctly you shouldn't get visible dither with SD provided your reflectance levels are under 12fL. I prefer 7 to 9fL since it hides most mpg artifacts and is more cinematic and closer to CRT levels. I had my HT1000 set up that way and dither wasn't an issue.

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post #14 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

I don't want to downplay DLPs based on a 3 years old Product (NEC 1000).

A lot has changed since the HT1000. I can't even find what DMD it had, but suffice to say there's been a few changes since a 4:3 digital was good for an HT projector. I want to say we've had the HD2, HD2+, DC2, DC3, and now DC4 since then.

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Like Jerry, I was bothered with dithering and noise especially in dark materials.

FWIW, I had an HD2+ (I believe) MT700 with noticeable dithering in dark scenes, but the DC2 IN76 has no such problems (get right up to the screen and you can see it though).

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but 3 years is a century in Digital. So is it bold to say that DLP still need a clean material in order to have good PQ?

Everything requires a good source to look good, of course that's obvious. Video processors have improved a lot in the last 3 years. Reon XV (HQV)-level processing is almost standard these days.

Quote:


A lot of my screening is still DVD and Cable SD material.

Dish Network SD is quite acceptable on my IN76. It doesn't look great, but SD never will at that size.

Don't count out the new BenQ models. BenQ has a history of highly regarded PJs (8700/8720/8720+, W10000) and hopefully the W20000 will continue that tradition, but with a new Vidi lamp and Dynamic Black, early indications are it may rival the LCD/LCoS for On/Off CR finally.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #15 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Which 9"? Did it have a proper C-element for the red and green? Even a stock G90 won't look quite right with colors and not be green enough. You really need either a proper c-element or color filtered lenses on AC units like HD144s with red and green labels. The red rivaled the red on a plasma set to over saturated cartoon mode on a Pioneer Elite without changing the rest of the colors!

Do you mean which CRT I owned last or went through? I went through alot, 9500LC, G90, 1209s, Cine9 and others. The last I used and still own is a highly modified Barco. Fully color corrected and with custom circuits I have re-designed for better performance.

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post #16 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

Also I found that I am more bothered with artifiacts (macro blocking, noise, dithering) when I push my CRT contrast up.

Is the noise in your source or is it coming from the CRT itself? With CRT you'll have to live with a certain amount of noise unless you replace components or curcuits. That's the tricky part and where it gets expensive.
Personally I wouldn't put much more money into CRT to work around these "issues", but I think there are still a couple of people out there who specialize in CRT mods.



Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

The only last things that keeps me from pulling the triger is Jason review of the Marantz 11S2 and its amazing specs (Great optics, great contrast...).

Don't judge it based on specs alone, specs can give you some hints but never tell the full story. I've seen projectors with "worse" specs, easily smoking the 11S2.


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Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

I don't want to downplay DLPs based on a 3 years old Product (NEC 1000).

The NEC is an old projector, it might have been good for some but it never did anything for me personally. The current generation of DLP completely smokes the NEC.

DLP still has artifacts, there is no such thing as the perfect projector. I think the technology that is closest to film is LCoS and SXRD. I'm not bashing DLP or anything, if you can't see RBE on single chips, color seperation artifacts on 3-chips or modulation artifacts, then you're good to go. Dithering is not anywhere as bad as it was with the old NEC. The current generation is much better, but by far not perfect.

LCoS and SXRD are not perfect either, they're good but as you saw with the Meridian (which is a optimized JVC) there's always room for improvements. The improvements are expensive however, I think William Phelps charged about $1k or so for an optimization (which I consider dirt cheap). Getting better results from the current generation should be alot more expensive than that. I've done mods myself (replaced hardware, shading, uniformity, custom written firmware and algorithms) on SXRD and while the performance is much better, the price goes up alot.

No matter if you choose a RS2 or a Marantz, be sure to pick your poison carefully. None of these is perfect and both have advantages over the other.

- Stephan
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post #17 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Do you mean which CRT I owned last or went through? I went through alot, 9500LC, G90, 1209s, Cine9 and others. The last I used and still own is a highly modified Barco. Fully color corrected and with custom circuits I have re-designed for better performance.

You say any or most 1080p fixed panel is over 9500lc, G90, 1209s and barco Cine9 except black level? And you owned all of those for a period of time!

So what fixed panels have you had that toped those previously owned CRT's in comparision?

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #18 of 26 Old 02-23-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

You say any or most 1080p fixed panel is over 9500lc, G90, 1209s and barco Cine9 except black level? And you owned all of those for a period of time!

So what fixed panels have you had that toped those previously owned CRT's in comparision?

I didn't say I owned them all, but the advantage when working with these things is that I can get my hands on alot without having to own them. In some cases, I don't own projectors but have to work with them or design mods. I think there is no point in constantly switching installed machines, if there isn't much of an improvement.

As far as digitals go and as previously stated, the first digital I could live with was the Sony Qualia 004. This did everything for me I was looking for and did everything better than the CRTs I've owned and worked with.

Other projectors include pretty much the entire Sim2 line, while for me personally RBE is an issue, for others it may not be an issue at all. JVC HD2K, RS1, RS2, HD100, the Meridian version, some of the Runco line, all Marantz 1080p (especially the 11S1 gives me a major RBE headache, though), PD Action Model Three, M25, DP Titan series, Sony VW50, VW100, VW60, VW200 to name a few.

I've worked with other projectors and projector arrays for medical imaging, research, 3D-projection, presentation and augmented reality with all kind of resolutions (2k, 4k, 8k, 12k and above) and sources, but I'll leave those out of the discussion here, since they're not really consumer units and in some cases only proof-of-concept installations or prototypes.

However, I think we're getting too much off topic again, the OP asked for recommendations and it looks like we're getting into another CRT vs digital war since some hardcore CRT owners come into the digital forum and try to convince everyone that CRT is still king. Sorta like the the HD DVD and BD fanboys going over to the "other" forum and stirring up trouble.

If you have any more specific questions on CRT vs digital, drop me a PM. I'll be happy to answer questions, but lets not mess up this thread anymore than it already is or have it even closed.

- Stephan
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post #19 of 26 Old 02-24-2008, 03:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I just took a camera shot of my HTPC desktop running @1920*1080.
I attached small portion of my pic. Pls let me know how the rs2 compares in terms of sharpness.

Tkx,Sam.
LL
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post #20 of 26 Old 02-24-2008, 01:07 PM
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Well that capture is pretty small. My RS2 looks better than that, but I think that it is possible that your camera pic isn't that good?

Also in regards to the DLP dithering comment above...

The dithering on DLPs used to drive me crazy, but now I haven't been able to see it at all on any of the 1080p projectors.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #21 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I ordered the Rs-2 few days ago, It will take me about a month to setup. I was very happy and excited about finally making the digital jump until yesterday, when I went to a sony dealer and auditioned the VW-60. 5 minutes into the screening and I already had buyers remorse. No, it wasn't the contrast or brightness compression as anyone might suspect. I actually found black very acceptable. It was simply the amount of noise I saw. I honestly tried to focus on the storyline but my eyes kept jumping from one artifact to another: dithering here, aliasing there, a lot of mosquito noise...Yikes! The source was DVD "legend of the bagger vince" from a sony player via HDMI outputing 480p and scaling was done inside PJ. I didn't try the PJ with HD as most of my viewing are still SD. I saw this same DVD dozen of times on my CRT and the PQ was superb with a clean transfer.
So guys, you think I should return the RS-2 based on a VW-60 review? Anyone saw both PJs and can comment on those specific issues. my RS-2 will be hooked up to my radiance, dunno if this will help.

Tkx, Sam.
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post #22 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 06:56 AM
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I wouldn't be too discouraged by the VW-60 demo. Unless you know the shop has it set up perfectly, it's hard to draw any conclusions. Settings within the PJ or DVD player can all have a dramatic impact on the artifacts you're describing.

Having said that, the RS-1 is known to highlight source noise more than some other projectors. I'm not sure about the RS-2, but I suspect it performs similarly.

No digital projector covers up source artifacts as well as a CRT.

I would think worst case scenario you might end up buying a good scaler like the Lumagen Radiance to adjust the picture to your liking.

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post #23 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

So guys, you think I should return the RS-2 based on a VW-60 review? Anyone saw both PJs and can comment on those specific issues. my RS-2 will be hooked up to my radiance, dunno if this will help.

I have not seen the RS2, I own the VW60. I don't think you should bail out on a projector after seeing a different projector perform badly in a dealer demo. It is shocking how badly done many dealer demos are - un/mis-calibrated equipment seems to be the rule rather than the exception. The Radiance should help SD sources quite a bit (after calibration).
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post #24 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 10:11 AM
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You need to keep in mind that digital is different than CRT.

CRT has a way of smoothing out mosquito noise and other artifacts. With quality source material digital will look amazing! Projectors always look better at home than in a store.

You may want to add a mosquito to clean less than perfect digital media http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=mosquito_hdmi

Try to focus on how your new projector is better than the CRT. I'll give a short list of things that might be better:
1. it might be much quieter, you will have a new appreciation for the movie soundtrack
2. it won't be some giant piece of machinery sitting in the sweet spot like a CRT projector, the digital can be well behind the seating area.
3. HD will look amazing!
4. setup time is only a matter of minutes. CRT sometimes can require endless tweaking because you know you can always get just a little more out of it.
5. Color uniformity is better
6. most digital projectors are much brighter than CRT

Don't panic, as long as you can have a positive outlook you will really enjoy the new projector. And the Blacks on the JVC will be as close as you can get to CRT.

~Jay
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post #25 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 11:37 AM
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This is fun .... a lot like the debate between LP records and CD: staunch defenders of each who will never be convinced by the alternative.

I would weigh in as a current owner of digital and a former owner of analog. My projector progression: Marquee 8000, Marquee 9500LC (color corrected with Parker mods), Sony VPL-VW100, and now Sony VPL-VW200. My favorite overall of the four is my current Sony, but it is not better in all cases.

The Marquee 9500LC had better black-levels and a smoother more realistic appearance. When it was dialed in and working properly it was a superb performer. But it was big and heavy and always out of sorts for one reason or the other: coss fingers and press the power switch!

The Sony VPL-VW200 is brighter, sharper and has better colors. It also has the most natural look of any of the digitals I have seen (VW100 was good in this regard also).

I think this is about personal preference and what is important to each viewer. The other big advantage of the single-lens digitals is their compatibility with an after-market anamorphic lens. Best thing I've done to my HT in years!

Simon

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
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post #26 of 26 Old 04-04-2008, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Regarding that 9" CRT rules comment... pretty much anything on this forum will beat 9" in all areas, except for overall black level and in some cases on/off CR when properly calibrated.

I don't think I would go that far. In fact, I'm not sure how you even reach that conclusion. Every single digital will handle motion worse. Every single chip DLP will have more artifacts than a CRT. And with LCoS, there is decent chance you will get a machine with bad convergence, then your SOL. With the CRT you have great motion handling, and pretty much no artifacts. What you have to live with is slightly softer (though if well set up not much softer than the RS2), not nearly as bright, and not a good candidate if you want to do CIH.

Now, back to OP. I just keep looking at the digitals hopefully. None are great yet--period, just accept that. None will have the "looking through a window" appeal of a very well set up CRT. They have strengths over the CRT in many areas, but on balance, they don't provide as rich of a film experience in a dedicated theater.

So, IMO, you need to just view them and decide what is important. LCD looks like crap and always will. If your goal is to get as close to the CRT's look as possible, go LCoS and pray you get a good one (because if you are like me, going from perfect convergence to bad convergence is intolerable). Given the DLP's greater ANSI CR and some other things, it will have more pop and depth, but they are a bit "harder" to watch than your CRT or an LCoS machine, they are more "video-like" than "film-like", and you WILL have artifacts. Not all DLPs have bad colors. I'm still in awe of the color accuracy of the Sammy SP-H710AE.

Good luck.
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