When cable will broadcast in 1080p? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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How long do you think it will be before cable companies will broadcast in 1080p? I know each company will vary just your best guess. Reason I ask is I am on the fence as to whether to save some coin and go with a 720p set or spend the extra money for 1080p so I will be ready for when it is broadcast. My cable company only offers about 25 hd channels now so I assuming when they add more they will still be in 1080i or 720p also, is the that a correct assumption?
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post #2 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:38 PM
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We have to wait until all channels go HD at the bear minimum of 720p/1080i. That won't happen until nearly 2009-2010. Keep in mind, broadcast stations have to reinvest in 1080p equipment and more bandwidth to make 1080p a possibility. I would guess somewhere near 2010 it could be possible.

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post #3 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:41 PM
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In addition to extra bandwidth and equipment to support 1080p, the FTC or whoever, would need to modify the ATSC standard to allow for 1080p. Right now, I believe 1080i is the highest allowed format.

Seeing how it took several delays and many many years to get people off Analog and onto Digital, I'm guessing we won't see 1080p broadcasts until 2011 or later. And by then, who knows, we may adopt the Japanese 4K standard at that point.

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post #4 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:43 PM
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1080p? 25 years if ever
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post #5 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

In addition to extra bandwidth and equipment to support 1080p, the FTC or whoever, would need to modify the ATSC standard to allow for 1080p. Right now, I believe 1080i is the highest allowed format.

Seeing how it took several delays and many many years to get people off Analog and onto Digital, I'm guessing we won't see 1080p broadcasts until 2011 or later. And by then, who knows, we may adopt the Japanese 4K standard at that point.

What Japanese 4K standard?
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post #6 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:48 PM
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Several generations from now.
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post #7 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:56 PM
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Well considering 99% of stations send out 1080i already, I'd go 1080. The i or p wont mean alot right now in broadcasting bc of compression. Although 1080i looks amazing. Not to mention that p would be a big bandwidth burden, so there may be more compression in p. I do know they are working on the technology to do 1080p, but by that time plasmas will be even better than they are now. Bottom line if you can afford it...go 1080.
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post #8 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilhelmk View Post

How long do you think it will be before cable companies will broadcast in P? I know each company will vary just your best guess. Reason I ask is I am on the fence as to whether to save some coin and go with a P set or spend the extra money for 1080p so I will be ready for when it is broadcast. My cable company only offers about 25 hd channels now so I assuming when they add more they will still be in 1080i or 720p also, is the that a correct assumption?

Never. And there really is no point.

All pro HD video based cameras used by the networks are a max 1080i. They are not about to invest in 1080p models.

Bandwidth is really a no issue with the new codecs. Personally I think the pressure should be to use mpeg4 broadcasts instead of mpeg2. That will be FAR more beneficial than 1080p broadcasts.
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post #9 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilhelmk View Post

How long do you think it will be before cable companies will broadcast in 1080p? I know each company will vary just your best guess. Reason I ask is I am on the fence as to whether to save some coin and go with a 720p set or spend the extra money for 1080p so I will be ready for when it is broadcast. My cable company only offers about 25 hd channels now so I assuming when they add more they will still be in 1080i or 720p also, is the that a correct assumption?

Cable companies will probably never broadcast in 1080p - there's just no need. 720p and 1080i are plenty good enough as it is. Broadcast networks also have to desire to broadcast in 1080p. Basically it will never happen.

You don't have to buy a 1080p set to take advantage of 1080p content (like Blue Ray DVD and games etc). For me the biggest determining factor when deciding between a 720p TV and a 1080p TV is pretty much dependent on if i can see SDE at my viewing distance or not. If so, then get a 1080p set. If not, then a 720p set is probably plenty good enough. The only reason i went with a 1080p over a better 720p set is because i see SDE on the 720p sets at my 8 foot viewing distance.

Oh and when the big digital transistion arrives in Feb 2009, we won't be getting everything in HD, it will simply be a digital signal instead of analog. Whatever is currently in SD will still be in SD, it's not like everything will suddenly be HD because it will not. Even now, the non-HD digital channels are broadcasting digital 480i.

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post #10 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilhelmk View Post

How long do you think it will be before cable companies will broadcast in 1080p? I know each company will vary just your best guess. Reason I ask is I am on the fence as to whether to save some coin and go with a 720p set or spend the extra money for 1080p so I will be ready for when it is broadcast. My cable company only offers about 25 hd channels now so I assuming when they add more they will still be in 1080i or 720p also, is the that a correct assumption?

Does not matter if the broadcast is 1080p or 1080i since the source will likely be 1080p/24 anyway. Hypothetically, the broadcast could have been "upgraded" from 1080i/60 to 1080p/24 when you watched TV last night on your brand new 1080p display, and you may not even have noticed it.

Sure, someday there may be 1080p/60 content, but don't count on it anytime soon.
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post #11 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:06 PM
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There are no plans to broadcast 1080p and most likely we will never see it. The HD formats for broadcast are 720p and 1080i, it took many years for this HD upgrade to happen, actually its still in the process. Don't expect another upgrade anytime soon, 1080p will most likely only be available as a DVD format.

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post #12 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Good info thanks everyone!
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post #13 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:13 PM
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I agree with most that in all likelihood we won't see 1080p piped out either OTA or via sat/cable/fios for sometime, if ever.

I think it is feasible that as 1080p becomes the defacto standard for TVs sold, that in several years a channel or two, like DiscoveryHD or ESPN might consider a 1080p signal. . .might. . .

But, even if this does occur, it won't for several years, so it's really just pure speculation on my part.
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post #14 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay since most HD channels are 1080i will 1080i look better on a 1080p set than a 720p set?
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post #15 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilhelmk View Post

Okay since most HD channels are 1080i will 1080i look better on a 1080p set than a 720p set?

That depends on the set itself, some displays look better than others regardless of 720/1080p. While more resolution is better it's not the defining difference in the best display picture quality.

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post #16 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilhelmk View Post

Okay since most HD channels are 1080i will 1080i look better on a 1080p set than a 720p set?

Assuming the 1080p set deinterlaces the signal correctly, and all other things being equal. . .yes.

The 720 will have to downscale in addition to deinterlace.
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post #17 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Cable companies will probably never broadcast in 1080p - there's just no need. 720p and 1080i are plenty good enough as it is. Broadcast networks also have to desire to broadcast in 1080p. Basically it will never happen.

You don't have to buy a 1080p set to take advantage of 1080p content (like Blue Ray DVD and games etc). For me the biggest determining factor when deciding between a 720p TV and a 1080p TV is pretty much dependent on if i can see SDE at my viewing distance or not. If so, then get a 1080p set. If not, then a 720p set is probably plenty good enough. The only reason i went with a 1080p over a better 720p set is because i see SDE on the 720p sets at my 8 foot viewing distance.

Oh and when the big digital transistion arrives in Feb 2009, we won't be getting everything in HD, it will simply be a digital signal instead of analog. Whatever is currently in SD will still be in SD, it's not like everything will suddenly be HD because it will not. Even now, the non-HD digital channels are broadcasting digital 480i.

Randy said this perfectly. Probably never will they broadcast 1080p. 1080i is beautiful on cable. It is reasons he mentions to go with 1080p. Go to a store with a good clean source and watch 720 comparred to 1080p and make your decision. I went with 1080p like Randy because of sde, i could also see in 720.
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post #18 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 02:54 PM
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Randy you hit the nail on the head! Most people fail to realize that the broadcasters have dragged their feet. The original date to transition to hidef was in 05. Now Feb. of 09. It comes down to money. It is expensive to switch to HD...why would the networks want to upgrade to 1080p? So a couple thousand hardcore videophiles gets a great picture. They don't care about us. Most people don't care about quality...they want quantity! That's why SACD/DVD-A is dead and iPODs playing compressed music are in everyone's house. Remember the hardware manufactures pushed 720p prices down too fast. 1080p is an attempt for retailers and manufactures to make up some lost margin. Don't forget resolution is a small part of what makes up a great picture.
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post #19 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 02:58 PM
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imho I doubt we will ever see cable companies do it....too much bandwidth (from their perspective) even with more compression/advanced codecs any "savings" in bandwidth will be used to shove more channels down the pipe, not to give more bandwidth to lesser # of channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

.....Right now, I believe 1080i is the highest allowed format.

I believe the ATSC standard currently allows for 1080p24 and 1080p30 (but not 1080p60)

See the table in the Resolution section in - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards


Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Does not matter if the broadcast is 1080p or 1080i since the source will likely be 1080p/24 anyway. Hypothetically, the broadcast could have been "upgraded" from 1080i/60 to 1080p/24 when you watched TV last night on your brand new 1080p display, and you may not even have noticed it.

Yes, assuming the TV's video processor could correctly IVTC the 24p stream from the 1080i signal (for film based TC'd 1080i material) it could extract the 1080p source to then display at 1080p60/24 but still that would not have ALL of the 1080 lines (as compared to a pure 1080p24 or p60 signal) because of the blurring that is introduced in 1080i....

"While 1080i has more scan lines than 720p, they do not translate directly into greater vertical resolution. Interlaced video is usually blurred vertically (filtered) to prevent twitter. Twitter is a flickering of fine horizontal lines in a scene, lines that are so fine that they only occur on a single scan line. Because only half the scan lines are drawn per field, fine horizontal lines may be missing entirely from one of the fields, causing them to flicker. Images are blurred vertically to ensure that no detail is only one scan line in height. Therefore, 1080i material does not deliver 1080 scan lines of vertical resolution."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p#720p_versus_1080i
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post #20 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Never. And there really is no point.

All pro HD video based cameras used by the networks are a max 1080i. They are not about to invest in 1080p models.....

Yes, but that argument is only valid for 1080i60 material (live programs like the news, etc.)

The point of a 1080p broadcast channel would be for "film only" channels like say universal HD, etc. where they could broadcast in 1080p24 (or 1080p60) since the source and all the mastering, etc. is done in 1080p24 and it is then telecined/3:2 pulldowned into 1080i60 for the broadcast. By broadcasting in 1080p you avoid that step and can provide better quality.

But again, one more reason it won't probably happen is that the studios would probably pressure the channels not to....they would want to keep 1080p exclusive to blu-ray now, wouldn't they?
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post #21 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 03:11 PM
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There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

1) The ATSC standards already permit 1080p broadcasting. Not sure why you guys think otherwise.

2) The bandwidth of 1080p30 would be less than 1080i60. The same goes for 1080p24.

I believe the networks that broadcast in 1080i choose so for a variety of reasons. One is to support legacy HD sets. Two it is more versatile: you can broadcast sports and movies on the same channel (through telecining) without altering the framerate. Also, how many sets do you know that can accept a 1080p24/30 signal and process it correctly? The majority of sets are designed with the intention of viewing 720p60 and 1080i60 material.

EDIT: Just noticed am777's post.
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post #22 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am777 View Post

Yes, but that argument is only valid for 1080i60 material (live programs like the news, etc.)

The point of a 1080p broadcast channel would be for "film only" channels like say universal HD, etc. where they could broadcast in 1080p24 (or 1080p60) since the source and all the mastering, etc. is done in 1080p24 and it is then telecined/3:2 pulldowned into 1080i60 for the broadcast. By broadcasting in 1080p you avoid that step and can provide better quality.

But again, one more reason it won't probably happen is that the studios would probably pressure the channels not to....they would want to keep 1080p exclusive to blu-ray now, wouldn't they?

Universal HD isnt a "film only" channel. No channel is "film only". Never has been and never will be.

You will never see 1080p broadcasts from any broadcaster in the US.
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post #23 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avguy1272 View Post

Randy you hit the nail on the head! Most people fail to realize that the broadcasters have dragged their feet. The original date to transition to hidef was in 05. Now Feb. of 09.

I think you mean digital, not Hi Def
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post #24 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckZ View Post

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

1) The ATSC standards already permit 1080p broadcasting. Not sure why you guys think otherwise.

2) The bandwidth of 1080p30 would be less than 1080i60. The same goes for 1080p24.

I believe the networks that broadcast in 1080i choose so for a variety of reasons...

You are right. Broadcasters were perfectly free to choose 1080p/30 or 24 from the beginning, but chose not to. All ATSC tuners can receive these signals. However, there is no significant benefit to 1080p/30 over 1080i/60, and some broadcast engineers believe 720/60 is superior to either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am777 View Post

...The point of a 1080p broadcast channel would be for "film only" channels like say universal HD, etc. where they could broadcast in 1080p24 (or 1080p60) since the source and all the mastering, etc. is done in 1080p24 and it is then telecined/3:2 pulldowned into 1080i60 for the broadcast. By broadcasting in 1080p you avoid that step and can provide better quality.

But again, one more reason it won't probably happen is that the studios would probably pressure the channels not to....they would want to keep 1080p exclusive to blu-ray now, wouldn't they?

Given that the vast majority of TV's in the field would just convert the 1080p/24 back into 60 Hz for display (including many that advertise they "accept" 24 fps signals), there is little motivation to do this from a broadcaster's point of view.

The studios are not very concerned about 24 fps. It isn't like it sctually makes much of a difference in the picture, or that it make the signal easier to copy (which would concern them). It's more useful as a marketing gimmick than anything else.
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post #25 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Universal HD isnt a "film only" channel. No channel is "film only". Never has been and never will be...

If not 100%, MGM HD is very close at this stage. No doubt that will change eventually, especially if/when they start to accept commercials.

But your main point is valid. 1080p broadcasts are extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future.
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post #26 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 10:03 PM
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Like i said in my first post I too doubt we will ever see cable companies do it, so I agree with that part but my point is that on a technical level I understand that there is an advantage (however slight) in 1080p24 or 1080p60 over 1080i for film based material (due to the blurring introduced in a 1080i signal to avoid twitter) "1080i material does not deliver 1080 scan lines of vertical resolution." as the wikipedia article stated.

I for one won't rule out that in the future (maybe years from now, by which time the majority of TVs will be accepting 1080p24 or at least 1080p60 which would be more compatible) a pay-per-view or video-on-demand channel or even a niche "film buff" channel won't broadcast in 1080p24 (or 1080p60 if the ATSC std is modified by then) no matter how small the profit margin (hence the word niche). If BD/TV marketing guys are pushing 1080p24 as the ultimate in film experience today why couldn't a cable company/channel jump on the bandwagon and offer 1080p24 too to attract the same folk that the BD guys are after? I am guessing vod or ppv could make it economically viable for them...."never" is too strong a word in my books. just my 2c....
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post #27 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 10:32 PM
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I would think that VOD/Pay Per View would be the first to got 1080P anyway, even if everything else is limited to 1080I
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post #28 of 79 Old 03-09-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Never. And there really is no point.

All pro HD video based cameras used by the networks are a max 1080i. They are not about to invest in 1080p models.

Bandwidth is really a no issue with the new codecs. Personally I think the pressure should be to use mpeg4 broadcasts instead of mpeg2. That will be FAR more beneficial than 1080p broadcasts.

I like this thread
D-Nice, can you explain why mpeg4 is better?
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post #29 of 79 Old 03-10-2008, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckZ View Post

2) The bandwidth of 1080p30 would be less than 1080i60.

Wouldn't those two be the same? Kind of like the whole image at half speed vs. half the image at full speed?

Pics from my TV here and here.
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post #30 of 79 Old 03-10-2008, 01:54 AM
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The part that amazes me most in this thread is the repeated use of the word 'never'...

Who thought that cable companies would ever offer phone and internet 20 years ago?

That they will transition to a 1080p signal is not a matter of if, its a matter of when. It could be 1 year, or it could be 20 but its a given that to remain competitive in this market they will eventually start transmitting a 1080p signal. It may be after a newer standard is adopted, but eventually it's going to happen.

For more reasons on why you should buy 1080p now read this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...07-part-1.html

I read that before I bought and I'm glad I did. As for can I tell a difference or not, had I bought 720p I'm sure I'd be wishing I bought 1080p. Rather than wait and let my mind play tricks on me I just bit the bullet and went 1080p from the start so I would have no regrets.
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