DTV Transition Date Delay - It's final. Again. June 12, 2009. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Max View Post

Well, yes, but .....

It's not always that simple. Unless your converter box has a CATV cable "out" connection, which some boxes don't, you have to use another piece of equipment (a "modulator") to connect the box to the TV.

Actually it is that simple.

ALL converter boxes that qualify for the CECB program HAVE a F connector that puts out channel 3/4. That is one of the qualifications. Boxes that put out HDMI or HD component may or may not have a channel 3 modulator in them. Those boxes don't qualify as a CECB because they do put out an HD signal not because they don't put out channel 3/4.

If the TV has VHF/UHF terminals instead of the F connector, like the 1968 RCA and 1971 Zenith that were used in the original testing of the boxes, they make 75/300 ohm baluns just for that reason. Again, there is NO NTSC analog tuner TV made since 1941 that can't be connected to a CECB qualified convert box. None. Period. End of story.

A Samsung DTB-H260F is NOT a qualified CECB and has been available since BEFORE the coupon program. It doesn't have a channel 3/4 modulator and it also puts out more than 480i which disqualifies it. It also retails for $179 unlike the CECB boxes that retail for around $60. Remember, there are two flavors of STB's. HD's that do not qualify and the SD's that do.

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post #182 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iowegian3 View Post

If by now cable and satellite providers have switched to digital signal inputs, would seem to me that a quick and dirty approach would be to generate these messages directly in front of the transmitter. Surely most stations have some old character generators, computers or whatever can play back a 10 second video message. Then have it set to interrupt the regular video feed every 15 minutes.

Exactly. With the move to HD, I'd say most stations probably have some SD equipment lying around that could do that...unless they scrapped it as soon as the shiny new HD equipment came in. Even a few year old PC would work.
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post #183 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 12:48 PM
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Not necessarily - DBS and /or cable could be getting the signal OTA . And as of the last test Dish here in Raleigh was STILL using the analog signal feeds - that may or may not be true in other places as well.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #184 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sief View Post

I took all of 3 minutes to look up President-elect Obama's site, and the contact page http://change.gov/page/content/contact/ filled the form out and sent it in. The Obama campaign is like any other political organization, if they don't hear from you then you don't exist...

Thanks for link. Congress has to change the law so I did my two Senators and Rep. first. But Obama is pushing them, so I sent him the same letter.
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post #185 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluejayrock View Post

You mean that every box in the coupon program has an RF Modulator.

People aren't going to be spending $150 on a box unless they have an HDTV to hook it to. So yes.

- Trip

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post #186 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnS-MI View Post

Thanks for link. Congress has to change the law so I did my two Senators and Rep. first. But Obama is pushing them, so I sent him the same letter.

Sent my Congress people yesterday, just now to this link as well.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #187 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Actually it is that simple...

Ya, you (and Trip) were probably writing your post while I was editing mine. Thanks to both of you for that info. Having the modulator in the converter box does indeed make for a simple connection situation, with only a balun needed in some (relatively rare) instances.

My Samsung box is actually the SIR-TS360 as per my footer below. It's a pretty decent box which I believe dates to 2005. I'd guess that newer boxes have better performance as far as locking stations in goes but I got my two on ebay for not a lot of money.

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post #188 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Max View Post

To those of you who replied, and as a followup to my comment, I was watching WLVT 39-1 out of Bethlehem last night when Pat (ricia) Simon, President and CEO, comes on and tells us that they are discontinuing all analog broadcasts early; namely, on January 30th.

This is one of the PBS stations that I watch quite a lot.

Checking the WLVT-TV 39 Form 387 transition plan filings with the FCC, in the February & July 2008 filings the plan was to shut down the DT 62 broadcast on December 22, then analog on January 5 with a flash cut to DT 39. WLVT's more recent October filing calls for DT 62 shutdown by Jan. 24, then do the flash cut to 39 on January 30. So a early shutdown has been in the works for this station for some time.
WLVT's October 08 387: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=36989.
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Is there any reason WHYY might not be able to go ahead with the changeover to digital on RF12 if the transition date is pushed back?

Yes. WHYY PBS 12 can not change it's digital broadcast from UHF 50 to VHF 12 until they terminate the analog VHF 12 broadcast. The station is doing a digital flash cut, presumably using the current analog 12 transmitter and antenna equipment. If the delay law requires all stations that have not done so prior to February 17 or maybe the the date it is signed into law to abort their analog shutdown, WHYY-DT will be stuck with the limited digital coverage until the new transition date.
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post #189 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Max View Post

My Samsung box is actually the SIR-TS360 as per my footer below. It's a pretty decent box which I believe dates to 2005. I'd guess that newer boxes have better performance as far as locking stations in goes but I got my two on ebay for not a lot of money.

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I own a TS-160 box. Both are 3rd gen if I remember correctly.

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post #190 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Not necessarily - DBS and /or cable could be getting the signal OTA . And as of the last test Dish here in Raleigh was STILL using the analog signal feeds - that may or may not be true in other places as well.

Actually, I'd say that's part of the test. However, if the TV station knows of the cable systems and/or DBS that are still using analog OTA signals for their feeds but have a date scheduled to switch to the station's digital feed, then that could be part of the message.

And the 15 second message becomes 35 seconds.

Or, if by now the cable/sat folks haven't moved to digital OTA, they can jolly well provide their own supers in a crawl explaining their target date to switch to the digital signal.


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post #191 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Yes. WHYY PBS 12 can not change it's digital broadcast from UHF 50 to VHF 12 until they terminate the analog VHF 12 broadcast. ...

ARGHHHH!!!!!

(but thanks for the info)
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post #192 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 05:03 PM
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There is another big issue that no one seems to have grasped yet.
All major retailers are pretty well in stock with the boxes, but the sales were all planned to drop sharply after February. In many cases, the manufacturers have no plans or key components to build out additional CECBs on short notice.

I had a meeting today with one of the largest manufacturers of CECBs. If we place additional orders today, we can get product into our stores in MAY. So our existing inventory will mostly be dried up in March, with a plan for very little carry-over. Remember, when the demand is gone for these, the sales will drop dramatically compared to present levels. I cannot imagine any major retailer that will want to take the risk of markdowns on leftover inventories.

Congress should act to allow the coupon requests to be honored. In today's rules the NTIA cannot assume any breakage on coupons. In reality, there is still funding left at realistic redemption levels. Waive the Deficiency Act for this issue, and let's get this done. What is the benefit of the delay?
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post #193 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 05:35 PM
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I sure would not want to be among the 40% of remaining coupon holders finding the brand they want in the last six weeks before D-Day. And if they waive the Deficiency Act, I'd hate to be the one guessing what the redemption rate will be.

I'd like to see all future coupons go to OTA-only homes. But clearly people lied about being OTA. There are a bunch of DMAs where OTA requests are at 100-150% participation.
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post #194 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I would very much like a phased transition. They should have done this in the first place.

- Trip

Yeah, phase it -- but I want to be first.
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post #195 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

I'd like to see all future coupons go to OTA-only homes. But clearly people lied about being OTA. There are a bunch of DMAs where OTA requests are at 100-150% participation.

Perhaps, but when I put in the request for my coupons back in August I answered that both households I requested them for currently subscribed to satellite TV. I still received the coupons with no questions asked. Did I lie? Nope. But I did buy an antenna, coaxial cable, splitter, and installed the CECBs and now can watch OTA DTV which has proven worthwhile to me.

aka N0NB
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post #196 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by just carl View Post

Most of the ones I know have no idea what's happening. Many live in old age homes and have small TV's in thier rooms with little antenna or built in antenna with no place to connect a converter box.

And delaying the transition 1 month, 2 month, 6 months, a year, will change this exactly how? Are we supposed to delay the digital transition until all the analog TVs (or the people watching them) have died?

(yeah, I know,I've been trolled)
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post #197 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 07:28 PM
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And if people can't find CECBs for their existing TVs - they'll just buy new TVs that have builtin ATSC tuners. When you can go to Walmart and buy a 27 inch SDTV for under $300 - I don't think there is a real problem with availability.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #198 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 07:33 PM
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The original plan was they'd go through the first two thirds (22.25 million coupons) and not care whether you were OTA or Pay TV. When they ran out, Congress had reserved an additional third (11.25 million coupons) for OTA-only people. How you self identified mattered when they were close to running out of the first batch, supposedly.

But it looked like what they did when they started using the leftover funds from expired coupons that hadn't been used, was that they added the funds back into the Batch 1 side, and then instead of continuing to use the funds for both Pay and OTA people together until it ran out completely, they used the main batch for Pay TV only, and began on the Reserve fund of 11.25 million for OTA-only. Both batches ran out about the same time. So it looks like they ended up giving OTA a smaller portion than was the original intent. That's why I thought they should give the future returns to OTA only, so they'd be back to the intent of the plan.
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post #199 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

EVERY TV, let me repeat that, EVERY TV built since NTSC TV came out in 1941, can have a converter box connected to it. The TV used to demo the first converter boxes in 2007 used a 1968 RCA color TV and a 1971 Zenith black and white TV. Any of your friends have TV's that old?

Thanks for that.

That's what I thought, but I didn't want to be the first to refute the "some TV's have built-in antennas and can't have a converter box attached" statement, in case there was some obscure model out there I didn't know about.

I've seen thousands of TV's in my life, manufactured from the late 40's to the present and I'm quite sure I've never seen one without an external antenna connection. That's all you need to hook up a converter box.

The first TV I remember in our house when I was growing up was purchased in 1960. It had VHF only, no UHF. It had "built in" rabbit ears, but those rabbit ears were connected to a piece of twinlead that came out a slot in the back of the TV and connected to two screw terminals. To connect an external antenna, you simply disconnected the twinlead coming from the built-in rabbit ears and connected to the screw terminals.

This model of TV would work just fine with a converter box and a balun.

Growing up in the 60's, I saw countless portable TV's. Some had one rabbit ear and one wire coming from that rabbit ear and out of a hole in the back of the set connected to one of the two antenna screw terminals. Again, one of these TV's would work perfectly with a converter box.

I still own a couple of small battery operated TV's. Both of them have an 1/8 inch phone jack for "external antenna". A converter box and an "F" to 1/8 adapter fixes those TV's right up.


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post #200 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

. When you can go to Walmart and buy a 27 inch SDTV for under $300 - .

Problem is, not too many years ago you could get a 27" for much less, usually for about half that. Even the cheapest SDTV is still too expensive for many.

Bob

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post #201 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by just carl View Post

Obviously stated by a person that is not ELDERLY. Many of us older people that do not have a lot of relatives to help are very confused. Most of the ones I know have no idea what's happening. Many live in old age homes and have small TV's in thier rooms with little antenna or built in antenna with no place to connect a converter box.
Obviously many don't know or care about elderly that have very limited or no income to buy new TV's.

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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

EVERY TV, let me repeat that, EVERY TV built since NTSC TV came out in 1941, can have a converter box connected to it. The TV used to demo the first converter boxes in 2007 used a 1968 RCA color TV and a 1971 Zenith black and white TV. Any of your friends have TV's that old?

I don't know if it really qualifies as a TV, but I have a Sony Watchman Model FD-10A manufactured March 1986. I do not see any place for an external antenna connection. The only jack I see is for a headset.

That said, I really don't accept that as being a reason to DELAY the transition. My Watchman is not going to grow an antenna input no matter how long they wait. If an old age home were to contact a TV station I suspect, the station would do a story about the need for serviceable TVs. I am sure plenty would be made available. Around here, nobody seems to want them. The various charity groups that call almost weekly with a truck in my area, want clothes and other usable household goods, but I have not gotten a call from any that would accept TVs. The recycling centers that accept TVs charge a fee, even if the TV works. Maybe the situation is different in other parts of the country, but I suspect that many working TVs are going in the trash that people would happily give to anyone who needs them.
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post #202 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

Problem is, not too many years ago you could get a 27" for much less, usually for about half that. Even the cheapest SDTV is still too expensive for many.

You can walk into any Wal-Mart and pick up a tube-based 20" SDTV for less than $150. Of course, you can also walk into any Wal-Mart and pick up 3 CECBs sans-coupon for the same price, although you might need to go by Radio Shack to pick up an F-connector adapter (I don't think Wal-Mart carries those).

The larger SDTVs are probably up in price a bit (although $200 was about the lowest regular price for a 25-27" tube model w/analog tuner only; I remember paying $300ish for my old 25" tube in the late 90s and I don't think they went down that much) because demand for them has collapsed in the face of LCDs becoming affordable to almost anyone who'd want a non-budget TV; who's going to spend $250 on a 27" tube when they can get a 26-27" LCD for $350? And mind you the DTV tuner chip + associated logic isn't adding much, if anything, to the BOM of the TV in 2009 (maybe $2-$4 at volume).

Getting back on-topic, I'm inclined to think that it's very unlikely that anything to delay the transition will actually get through Congress in five weeks as long as the NAB remains opposed to it. A clean bill to authorize a change in the accounting rules for CECB coupons and possibly an expedited coupon delivery process (maybe a web-based printable coupon option, although that would probably be hard to develop in the remaining weeks) could pass in 2-3 days if both chambers put their minds to it.
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post #203 of 3465 Old 01-10-2009, 10:52 PM
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I think this may be one of just carl's friends. What's really scary is that there may be more than a few folks out there like the lady in the video. But, like another poster said, it will do no good to delay implementation forever for some. So don't delay it at all.
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post #204 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 04:55 AM
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Markey Draft Keeps Feb. 17 DTV Transition
Bill Flies In Face Obama Team Request For Delay
By Ted Hearn -- Multichannel News, 1/9/2009 11:16:00 AM

Washington -- Rep. Edward Markey (D. Mass.) is circulating a draft bill on the digital TV transition that would retain the Feb. 17 cutoff of analog TV signals, despite a request Thursday by the co-chairman of the Obama transition team for a delay.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/....html?nid=4262

Can this guy ever make up his mind?

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post #205 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 05:26 AM
 
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As I've said before, on behalf of the people of the Commonwealth (even though I didn't vote for hime), I apologize for inflicting Markey on the nation.
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post #206 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

As I've said before, on behalf of the people of the Commonwealth (even though I didn't vote for hime), I apologize for inflicting Markey on the nation.


With Markey trying to retain the 2/17 transition date, in my opinion, he's doing the correct thing.

I don't live in the Commonwealth, but I wish I could vote for him!
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post #207 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 05:45 AM
 
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I said something about FCC Chair Martin recently, that applies to Markey as well: Neither of them can "get it wrong" 100% of the time, because that would exhibit a level of perfection ("perfection in their imperfection") that they could not be capable of. They both agree with us, this time. That doesn't mean any of their other decisions are of value. Both of then tend to make the wrong choice. They both just got lucky this time, I suspect.

Take my word for it... if you knew Markey's record better, you might rethink your current support for him!
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post #208 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 05:52 AM
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Kinda in that same vein of how the government is running around chasing its tail on the conversion, I thought you might find this amusing. A month ago Commissioner McDowell announced he would be visiting Raleigh, North Carolina for the DTV conversion on Jan 15/16. 2 Weeks ago Chairman Martin announced he too would be visiting Raleigh, North Carolina on Jan 14/15 for the DTV conversion. When told Commissioner McDowell would also be in North Carolina during the same time, Martin's office response was, "Oh really? We didn't know that."

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post #209 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by quango View Post

; who's going to spend $250 on a 27" tube when they can get a 26-27" LCD for $350?

Those who can't afford to spend the $250 on a Tv to start with. Those folks could care less about the technology.There are many elderly and retired folks out there in that situation.
Cheap Tv's just aren't available anymore like they were in the past, and that's where this transition
needs the converter box program to work.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #210 of 3465 Old 01-11-2009, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

Those who can't afford to spend the $250 on a Tv to start with. Those folks could care less about the technology.There are many elderly and retired folks out there in that situation.
Cheap Tv's just aren't available anymore like they were in the past, and that's where this transition
needs the converter box program to work.

Think of how many 17-19 inch CRT computer monitors we could have saved from the electronics recycle graveyard if there could have been a VGA output on the CECB coverter boxes.

You can buy these monitors at used computer shops for $25-50. Many with built in speakers.

I had 3 flat screen Samsung CRT monitors I tried to give away to schools, churches, other orgs and no one would take them for free.

Finally sent them to their graveyard.
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