Total newbie on ATSC to DVB-T conversion - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey there,

So, maybe my answer is on here somewhere, but I am a complete AV idiot, and pretty much need everything spelled out for me here. I hope I'm in the right place, sorry if I'm not. And hopefully somebody can help me... keep in mind I only sort of understand the problem myself.

So, basically what it comes down to is I have a TV tuner card on my computer that accepts component input and can display HD/progressive scan, but only from a DVB-T signal. I have it hooked up to a game console (PS2 right now, PS3 later) which I assume is sending out an ATSC HD/progressive scan signal.

Needless to say, it doesn't show correctly, although almost. Basically all I get is a sharper, but weird double-vision display; two views side-by-side at the wrong aspect ratio.

Is there any way I can convert an ATSC signal from component to a DVB-T signal, either through hardware or software means?

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 07:42 PM
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The entire premise of your question is flawed. ATSC and DVB-T are different standards for the broadcast of compressed digital audio and video signals. Component is uncompressed analog video. ATSC and DVB-T have nothing to do with component, though many tuners capable of receiving and decoding ATSC signals (mainly used in the US, Canada, Mexico, and Korea) and DVB-T (used in most of the rest of the world) have a component video out. A game system like a PS2/PS3 doesn't do ATSC or DVB-T in any way, shape or form.
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post #3 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, I see.

In that case, can anyone tell me the problem I'm encountering? All I'm trying to do is use progressive scan. Based on this though, I'm guessing I'm asking the wrong people... sounds as if it has more to do with the card than anything else.
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post #4 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reedsierra View Post

Hey there,

So, maybe my answer is on here somewhere, but I am a complete AV idiot, and pretty much need everything spelled out for me here. I hope I'm in the right place, sorry if I'm not. And hopefully somebody can help me... keep in mind I only sort of understand the problem myself.

So, basically what it comes down to is I have a TV tuner card on my computer that accepts component input and can display HD/progressive scan, but only from a DVB-T signal. I have it hooked up to a game console (PS2 right now, PS3 later) which I assume is sending out an ATSC HD/progressive scan signal.

Needless to say, it doesn't show correctly, although almost. Basically all I get is a sharper, but weird double-vision display; two views side-by-side at the wrong aspect ratio.

Is there any way I can convert an ATSC signal from component to a DVB-T signal, either through hardware or software means?

Thanks in advance.

?

First, if you are in North America, you need an ATSC tuner card. DVB-T is not used in North America.

Second, tuner cards do not have component video input; they have component video output.

If the goal is to show the PS2 on your display, you probably need a component video to RGBHV transcoder, like this one: http://www.copperbox.com/Audio-Autho...ler-p/1365.htm

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post #5 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I know DVB-T is not used in North America. That's my problem, at least, that's what I thought my problem was. My card only supports DVB-T.

Also, I'm sorry about mixing up the terminology. As I said, I don't know anything about this subject. I didn't mean to cause any undue confusion.

If it helps, the card I'm using is a Leadtek WinFast PxDVR3200 H. But it sounds like the problem lies in the card, if you're suggesting I need an entirely new piece of equipment to do what I'm trying to.



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Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

?

First, if you are in North America, you need an ATSC tuner card. DVB-T is not used in North America.

Second, tuner cards do not have component video input; they have component video output.

If the goal is to show the PS2 on your display, you probably need a component video to RGBHV transcoder, like this one:

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post #6 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reedsierra View Post

Yes, I know DVB-T is not used in North America. That's my problem, at least, that's what I thought my problem was. My card only supports DVB-T.

Also, I'm sorry about mixing up the terminology. As I said, I don't know anything about this subject. I didn't mean to cause any undue confusion.

If it helps, the card I'm using is a Leadtek WinFast PxDVR3200 H. But it sounds like the problem lies in the card, if you're suggesting I need an entirely new piece of equipment to do what I'm trying to.

I don't know what you are trying to do.

If you are trying to receive Digital TV in North America, you need a new ATSC (Digital TV, DTV) tuner card.

If you want to see the PS2 on your PC display, see the link above.

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post #7 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I don't know what you are trying to do.

If you are trying to receive Digital TV in North America, you need a new ATSC (Digital TV, DTV) tuner card.

If you want to see the PS2 on your PC display, see the link above.

I'm trying to use my card to see progressive scan PS2 on my computer.

I think I understand now where I got confused, though. Thank you all for your help.
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post #8 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reedsierra View Post

I'm trying to use my card to see progressive scan PS2 on my computer.

You don't need to go through the computer to get the PS2 on the computer display; it would be an unnecessary and more costly step.

Use a transcoder as indicated in the link above. The computer display has RGBHV input, which the PS2 > transcoder will output.

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post #9 of 25 Old 02-20-2009, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, no offense, but my $80 card lets me play PS2 on my computer just fine (aside from not seeming to support progressive scan), which is much more economical than the $270 transcoder you linked me to. I've been doing it for some time now, actually.

But thank you for your help; I know a lot more about the situation now than I did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

You don't need to go through the computer to get the PS2 on the computer display; it would be an unnecessary and more costly step.

Use a transcoder as indicated in the link above. The computer display has RGBHV input, which the PS2 > transcoder will output.

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post #10 of 25 Old 02-21-2009, 03:23 AM
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Is that a US PS2 connected to the composite input of a DVB-T card? Maybe it's a Pal/NTSC or resolution mismatch?
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post #11 of 25 Old 02-21-2009, 06:27 AM
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It is possible that the video "input" of the card does not support 480p? Perhaps it only supports 480i. Try setting the PS2/3 to 480i output and see if the monitor syncs to test.

EDIT:
Looks like my suspicion is correct:
http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archi...t-t358807.html


Looks like the DVR2300 supports 480p:
http://www.leadtek.com/eng/tv_tuner/...&pronameid=399
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post #12 of 25 Old 02-21-2009, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

It is possible that the video "input" of the card does not support 480p? Perhaps it only supports 480i. Try setting the PS2/3 to 480i output and see if the monitor syncs to test.

EDIT:
Looks like my suspicion is correct:
http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archi...t-t358807.html


Looks like the DVR2300 supports 480p:
http://www.leadtek.com/eng/tv_tuner/...&pronameid=399

The video card ingests?

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post #13 of 25 Old 02-21-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

The video card ingests?

Is that a new techical term?

If you mean "accepts" a video input, yeah!
Quote:


Support Component Y/Pb/Pr(480p), S-Video, composite signal capture.
1 MiniDin 9-pin connector for Component video(480p)/ S-Video/CVBS/audio input

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post #14 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 03:33 AM
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Is the PS/2 a European or US/Japanese model?

It sounds like your DVB-T card is actually a hybrid DVB-T/Analogue card, and you are able to feed it composite (or S-video?) from the PS2 - this is totally independent of the DVB-T digital TV standard (and you're not going to be using DVB-T in this application)

PS/2s output neither an ATSC nor a DVB-T signal. In fact they don't output an RF signal at all - they output composite, S-video or component (and occasionally VGA, though with syncs on green not separate syncs)

European PS/2s will output both a 576/50i (aka PAL 50) and a 480/60i (aka PAL 60) PAL 4.43MHz composite signal. They will also output a 480/60p component signal via the component cable. Many tuners cards will struggle with the 480/60i PAL signal as it is not a broadcast standard but some do (though it is in widespread use in Europe for replay of NTSC VHS tapes on European VCRs, and it is also used on games consoles and DVD players etc. it isn't an official broadcast standard and isn't used over-the-air)

Similarly if you connect the Y (Green) component cable from your PS/2 to the composite (often yellow) input on your capture card you may see a black and white double image. This is because your card is expecting 480i (or 576i) but is being fed 480p or 576p (which send two lines in the same space of time as a single line takes in 480i/576i)

For the PS2 (and PS3) to feed yoru capture card correctly they ideally need to feed in 480/60i (to get the frame rate high enough) but if that is also black and white (because the capture card assumes 480/60i is NTSC and doesn't like PAL 4.43 at this frame rate) then you may have to drop to 576/50i.

You won't be able to capture 480p or 576p or use a component cable for colour images with your capture card. It requires composite (or possibly S-video) not component, and won't cope with progressive analogue sources, only interlaced ones.

All PS2s ship with a composite cable AIUI - try that ?

Finally - you may find game play is not great even after all of this, as the PC will introduce at least a frame of delay I suspect, maybe more.
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post #15 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 02:00 PM
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The Leadtek WinFast PxDVR3200 H card does not "accept" anything other than 480i on the input.
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post #16 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Is that a new technical term?

No, it's an old technical term used in the computer industry. It simply means the ability to get the video in a usable format on the hard drive for computer playback or other use.

Quote:


If you mean "accepts" a video input, yeah!

Thanks!

Nice to learn something today.

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post #17 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

No, it's an old technical term used in the computer industry.

Hm-m-m...
I've been working with mainframes, FEP's and data communications/networking since 1972. Never heard that term.

Maybe I learned something today too!
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post #18 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Hm-m-m...
I've been working with mainframes, FEP's and data communications/networking since 1972. Never heard that term.

Ever work with an Onyx?

http://www.sgi.com/products/remarketed/onyx3000/

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post #19 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

No, it's an old technical term used in the computer industry. It simply means the ability to get the video in a usable format on the hard drive for computer playback or other use.

Ingest is certainly a standard description of the process of loading video into a digital server/editing system etc., and has been pretty much since the first days of Avids and Profiles this side of the pond. (e.g. "The shows are ingested from HDCam SR to the TX server")
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post #20 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 05:31 PM
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Nope...
Old guy in IT with a major insurance corporation. All DP and comm.

As for the term "ingest", new to me and it's relation/reference in my experiece over the years.
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post #21 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

The Leadtek WinFast PxDVR3200 H card does not "accept" anything other than 480i on the input.

Hmm - surely 576/50i and 480/60i? The specs of the board include PAL/SECAM/NTSC. SECAM is 576/50i only (and PAL is only 480/60i in Brazil, with a 3.58MHz carrier), so I'd expect the card to do both 480/60i and 576/50i if it claimed PAL/SECAM/NTSC.

(Whether it will accept PAL 4.43MHz 480/60i - who knows?)

From the description of the OP - it sounds like they are feeding the luminance component of a component 480/60p or 576/50p signal into an composite input expecting a 480/60i or 576/50i. (Each 480i/576i line lasts twice as long as a 480p/576p line - hence the double imaging)
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post #22 of 25 Old 02-22-2009, 05:37 PM
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Whatever works...
It's obvious what doesn't work though!
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post #23 of 25 Old 02-24-2009, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Woah, lots of discussion since I left here.

I figured out the problem, at any rate. The card has automatic deinterlacing for component, so I am already getting a progressive scan image, verified from testing using my S-video cable, which didn't deinterlace.

Quote:


From the description of the OP - it sounds like they are feeding the luminance component of a component 480/60p or 576/50p signal into an composite input expecting a 480/60i or 576/50i. (Each 480i/576i line lasts twice as long as a 480p/576p line - hence the double imaging)

This... heh, I have /no/ idea what this means. I plug the three-color component cables into the card, and then play. It's only when I try and set "progressive scan" on via the in-game option that the display gets confused and displays a double image. It is not in black and white, however. The reason for this seems to be that the card was already deinterlacing the image.

What I was really trying to find out, before I learned the difference between HD and progressive scan, was whether this card would support HD or not (720 or 1080). As there are only two games on the PS2 that support HD, neither of which I have, I'll have to wait for the PS3 to test things out, but judging from Ratman's link, I may end up with the same problem. There seem to be some odd misconceptions about TV cards here, though. Clearly I'm something of an anti-expert on this, but I definitely don't have any lag when playing my games, for instance.
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post #24 of 25 Old 02-24-2009, 03:11 PM
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Composite/S-video does not support progressive in or out.
Component can support 480i through 1080i, sometimes 1080p.
Not all component interfaces support 480p (or higher), although many do assume that because it's component, it supports 480p (or HD).

In your case (from my quick reading), your card will not "accept" any video input signal higher than 480i via the input interface.
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post #25 of 25 Old 02-25-2009, 01:35 AM
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My reading of the specs of the card agree - though it is relatively unusual in supporting component input according to the specs. I missed this first time round - apologies - I led everyone on a composite blind alley probably.

However I think redsierra is misusing or misunderstanding interlace or using standard descriptions incorrectly.

The S-video output will be 480i or 576i (depends whether the PS2 is set-up for 60Hz or 50Hz output). This will always be interlaced video - S-video is an interlaced standard. To display this on a PC screen will require the PC (almost certainly in the video card drivers these days) to de-interlace this video to progressive.

The Component output from the PS2 could be 480i/576i (which would be the same format as S-video in line time and frame time) or 480p/576p (which will have lines of half the time, to get twice as many input in the same frame time - as 480p has 60x480 line frames, whereas 480i has 60x240 line fields / 30x480 line frames)

480i component will need to be de-interlaced by the PC for display, but 480p will not need to be de-interlaced, as 480p is a progressive standard - nothing interlaced about it.

However the specs for the Leadtek card do suggest it is SD 480i/576i only - and it sounds as if the PS2 is outputting a 480p/576p signal. This would mean that you got two lines output in the time that the card would expect a single line - explaining the two horizontally compressed double images across the screen. Effectively the Leadtek card is always expecting an interlaced signal, so when fed a progressive signal treats it as component.

The PS2 needs to output an interlaced, not progressive, signal - not sure if this is possible or not from a PS2. (I ran mine interlaced RGB SCART in the UK)

As for lag - there is very likely to be at least a frame of lag (as the PC will be acting as a frame buffer to avoid tearing), if not more, it may not be noticable though. (One frame you can normally cope with, more than one you start seeing lipsync issues and worse - and gamers tell me they "feel" it) If the Leadtek also supports on-board MPEG2 compression (as it might need to for Media Center compatibility with analogue sources) then there may be some MPEG2 delay as well - though it sounds as though there isn't.
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