TVGOS ( TV Guide On Screen ) Devices - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post

Here's my summary. Got a DTVPal+ to feed an E85H the TVGOS listings.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15924398 (detailed post with requested info and my other thoughts)

Good to hear it's apparently working for someone, but I'd still suggest waiting until a person actually hears of someone from their own market having some success before they go out and plunk down $60.00+ on something they may not even need otherwise.
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post #32 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 06:10 PM
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Well I'm happy then since he's in my market. It's just too bad the Pal didn't have S-video. I wonder if I could set the Pal up to input 3 for the guide but record from input 1 which would be the better PQ CM-7000??
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post #33 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Appears (check the threads) that Macrovision is still working on getting the digital data (pdf page 7) to be reliably generated by their inserters at the broadcasters.
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post #34 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Good to hear it's apparently working for someone, but I'd still suggest waiting until a person actually hears of someone from their own market having some success before they go out and plunk down $60.00+ on something they may not even need otherwise.

Speaking of market area, did you know your TVGOS Host ID is the hex number for your GBA (Gemstar Broadcast Area)? You put your zipcode in setup, it finds your GBA in a zipcode packet and then finds a host station. So, you can view your GBA (in decimal) in this document (doc page 28-30, pdf page 39-41) and converted to hexadecimal, that's your Host ID. Would make for a good thread starter to see what areas are receiving TVGOS (or not) and what their host stations are.

P.S. GBA (Gemstar Broadcast Area) is Gemstar's TVGOS data coverage equivalent of Nielsen's DMA.
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post #35 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Speaking of market area, did you know your TVGOS Host ID is the hex number for your GBA (Gemstar Broadcast Area)? You put your zipcode in setup, it finds your GBA in a zipcode packet and then finds a host station. So, you can view your GBA (in decimal) in this document (doc page 28-30, pdf page 39-41) and converted to hexadecimal, that's your Host ID. Would make for a good thread starter to see what areas are receiving TVGOS (or not) and what their host stations are.

hmm...I just assumed that the last 2 or 3 digits were the same as the numbers for DMA's---aren't they?

And the rabbit ears website cited in many other places has a LONG list of CBS stations and DMAs that are supposedly already covered by digital TVGOS...by far the larger part of the population...

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post #36 of 1484 Old 02-27-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Well I'm happy then since he's in my market. It's just too bad the Pal didn't have S-video. I wonder if I could set the Pal up to input 3 for the guide but record from input 1 which would be the better PQ CM-7000??

You can ("manually"). I have a Samsung HD tuner (component out going straight to the TV, S-video out going into L1 on the E85H) and can use that if I feel the quality is lacking on the Pal and for watching live TV (since channel changing thru the G-link is a long process). You don't get TVGOS labels on the L1 recordings, of course, but it's not that hard to figure out/remember when the preview video starts playing in the "title list." The Pal setup is handy for daily recording shows where I don't really care about the quality (and watch with the lovely 1.3x playback feature). The Samsung H260f's guide/timer solution isn't ideal for planning more than a day in advance, and the Pal/TVGOS solution shines here.

I think you can already use an E85 with a CM and g-link to do manual timers, so that won't help much.

Now that I typed all that, I think you're asking if you can use the G-link/IR Blaster to control the CM via the guide (not manual timers) and still suck the guide info out of the Pal.

That's a really interesting question. My first answer would be no, you can only choose L3, Ch3, or Ch4 when setting up the Pal as a cable box, so you can't set up the CM on L1 and operate it with the TVGOS other than a normal "manual" timer set to record from L1. However, what if you put the yellow composite video output of the Pal on L3, but then plugged the CM into the S-video of L3 (not L1) and aimed the G-Link at the CM after leaving the Pal on your CBS channel for guide info?

I think the the CM and Pal use the same blaster "code" of 5.1 = 151, etc., don't they? Maybe I'm incorrectly remembering some long ago post (I don't have a CM).

If you plug an S-video cable into the E85 while the yellow video cable is also plugged in, the S-video "overrides" the yellow RCA video. I don't know if this disables the port in such a way that it would no longer get TVGOS signals or not. If it does fully disable the TVGOS download, a hacky way might be to unplug the s-video from the E85 at night so the guide can download, and then plug it back in during the day/recording time.

It's something to ponder and experiment with if you have all these boxes to play with. I don't have anything besides the Pal to try g-linking/IR blasting.
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post #37 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post


Now that I typed all that, I think you're asking if you can use the G-link/IR Blaster to control the CM via the guide (not manual timers) and still suck the guide info out of the Pal.

That's a really interesting question. My first answer would be no, you can only choose L3, Ch3, or Ch4 when setting up the Pal as a cable box, so you can't set up the CM on L1 and operate it with the TVGOS other than a normal "manual" timer set to record from L1. However, what if you put the yellow composite video output of the Pal on L3, but then plugged the CM into the S-video of L3 (not L1) and aimed the G-Link at the CM after leaving the Pal on your CBS channel for guide info?

I think the the CM and Pal use the same blaster "code" of 5.1 = 151, etc., don't they? Maybe I'm incorrectly remembering some long ago post (I don't have a CM).

Yes you're correct, I would like to use the Pal ONLY for getting/supplying the guide to my EH-55 but use my CM for my recordings. I would think a possible way to set this up would be to use the Pal's coax channel 3 output to feed my EH-55's RF input and use my CM-7000's S-video output to feed my EH-55s L3 input. I would setup my EH-55 for antenna + STB and use the Pioneer(S/A CM-7000's) blaster code(as I currently have it setup). The Pal would be constantly ON and only tuned to my digital TVGOS host channel(4.1 or 32 in our area).
When the EH-55 started looking for TVGOS it would probably blast my CM-7000 to my TVGOS host channel but it would really be getting the info from the Pal which would already be on that channel. Later when a recording was approaching my EH-55 should send out the correct code to change the channel on my C-7000 but the Pal would continue to stay on the TVGOS host channel. (edit)-thinking about this more I wonder if my EH-55 wouldn't just tune to analog channel 3, with it's analog tuner, to get the guide since that's where it would be? This would be even better.

It sounds rather complicated and a little gerry rigged but if it would work I should have the best of both worlds(TVGOS and great recording quality). I'm not sure about your E-85 but my EH-55 is able to be setup for both OTA and STB at the same time. Currently that's what I'm doing. That is I'm getting my analog TVGOS OTA to my EH-55s antenna input while I'm doing all my recordings from my CM-7000 hooked up to L3.
I'd prefer to not use manual events for 2 reasons. One, I really like the auto titling function that TVGOS provides and second I'd like to be able to just click the program in the TVGOS screen and not have to bother with the manual events. What do you think, should it work? Can you set your E-85 up in this manner (OTA + STB?) I'm seeming to remember that only the EH-55 and EH-75 have this feature but I'm not positive.

I apologize to bwall23 if were getting OT for what he meant this thread to be, but it's nice to finally have a master TVGOS thread if you can call this thread that. It seems like many other AVS forums have TVGOS threads (and many at that) but no real master thread where all the information would be compiled. With all the recent interest in TVGOS and keeping it working it would be nice to almost have a TVGOS forum here on AVS....although maybe the traffic wouldn't justify it and the moderators would just as soon keep the threads specific to the area of the device using the TVGOS.
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post #38 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

hmm...I just assumed that the last 2 or 3 digits were the same as the numbers for DMA's---aren't they?

And the rabbit ears website cited in many other places has a LONG list of CBS stations and DMAs that are supposedly already covered by digital TVGOS...by far the larger part of the population...

GBA's are Gemstar's version of the Nielsen DMA's. What I was saying is the numbers in the DTVPal+ User Guide are the Gemstar GBA's. For each GBA, if you're receiving TVGOS data from one of it's host stations (Host Channel), then the Host ID listed in your TVGOS diag screen will be equal to your GBA.
i.e. for the Springfield, MA GBA, the GBA listed in decimal = 98, your Host ID listed in hex = 0x62.
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post #39 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

GBA's are Gemstar's version of the Nielsen DMA's. What I was saying is the numbers in the DTVPal+ User Guide are the Gemstar GBA's. For each GBA, if you're receiving TVGOS data from one of it's host stations (Host Channel), then the Host ID listed in your TVGOS diag screen will be equal to your GBA.
i.e. for the Springfield, MA GBA, the GBA listed in decimal = 98, your Host ID listed in hex = 0x62.

yes, but my point was that your earlier post didn't MENTION that the fake zip code that the DTVPal uses for each area actually specifies the local DMA number,

and my second point was that you can go to the rabbitears website - previously cited in many threads - to see if (supposedly) your area is already receiving digital TVGOS (though it is not entirely accurate, or at least wasn't some months ago, when It started appearing in the threads for digital devices like the Sony 250/500 and the LG3410a, and in the DTVPal thread): http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos.
That's where people probably ought to go to see whether digital TVGOS is supposedly available in their area.

(In fact in the late summer I had a post in the DTVPal/TVGOS thread that listed all the areas and digital stations where digital TVGOS was known - based on people's experience delineated in various threads - to be available. I updated that post until we became aware of rabbitears' much more comprehensive list.

PS: somehow I thought this site was linked in your opening post, but I guess it's not...you might consider doing so.

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post #40 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

PS: somehow I thought this site was linked in your opening post, but I guess it's not...you might consider doing so.

Done. Although trip's site shows my CBS station is transmitting TVGOS digital, it hasn't been working lately. Macrovision is supposedly working on getting all three streams to be passed by their inserters in most of the US.
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post #41 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

yes, but my point was that your earlier post didn't MENTION that the fake zip code that the DTVPal uses for each area actually specifies the local DMA number

Thanks, my post was vague on that. Updated.
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post #42 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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post #43 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 10:18 PM
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hi folks... i'm new at this so please forgive me if i'm doing this wrong.. this is the first time i've subscribed to any forum ... hope to learn what i can and maybe provide some input from testing... my equipment includes a Mits LT-46244 TV w/ TV Guide Daily, and a Panasonic DMR-E95 DVR. The Mits has V9 TVG software and the Panny is Running V7. TV is connected to COX Cable in Las Vegas, NV. I also bought a couple Dish TR40 OTA boxes last year ( v103 ) in anticipation of catastrophe with the panny TVGOS.... more after i get this posted successfully...
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post #44 of 1484 Old 02-28-2009, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rkg22 View Post

hi folks... i'm new at this so please forgive me if i'm doing this wrong.. this is the first time i've subscribed to any forum ... hope to learn what i can and maybe provide some input from testing... my equipment includes a Mits LT-46244 TV w/ TV Guide Daily, and a Panasonic DMR-E95 DVR. The Mits has V9 TVG software and the Panny is Running V7. TV is connected to COX Cable in Las Vegas, NV. I also bought a couple Dish TR40 OTA boxes last year ( v103 ) in anticipation of catastrophe with the panny TVGOS.... more after i get this posted successfully...

Thanks rkg22 and welcome to the forum! I've updated my table in the first post with your info.
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post #45 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 09:14 AM
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ok, here's followup for my situation and current status... i've had several instances where the guide goes away here in vegas... i can attribute most of these issues to cox cable messing around with their feed... original feed, for both the guide and time of day, were via local analog PBS KLVX channel 10 ( same channel used on both OTA and cable feed ). i have cox expanded basic service, by the way. the first to go away was the VBI time of day, when cox changed their PBS feed over to their digital feed. i made noise to COX and saw them change the feed back to analog, but this lasted only until a few weeks ago, when they switched back to digital feed. so no more VBI time of day. about 3 or so weeks ago, i began to have intermittent loss of guide data. during these times, i noted that TVG host channel would occasionally change between analog channel 10 ( PBS ) and the local CBS feed on channel 8.1 ... the panny began to lose data consistently until recently. as did the mits tv. i am now in the middle of a reset, waiting for tvg data once again, and note that as of today, both panny and mits appear to be once again locking up on analog channel 10 ( PBS ) and i'm awaiting listing population. i can only surmize that the local CBS affiliate WAS feeding COX for a time, but that now the PBS affiliate has taken over the task, and that COX is now inserting TVG data into their analog feed to me.. more in the next post...
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post #46 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 10:01 AM
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anticipating the loss of TVG functionality with the switch to DTV, i've connected the TR40 RF output through a channel 4 insertion device to my RF feed. the cox cable feeds their local govt channel on channel 4, but duplicates it on a digital channel, so i've notched out channel 4 from the cox feed and replaced it with the TR40 feed... this is to hopefully take advantage of an OTA feed converted to analog and passed on to the panasonic E95. the tr40 allegedly has 2 modes of operation, the first being OTA conversion of TVG data with ' channel mapping ' via the use of a bogus zip code in the target device, but the 2nd ( the one i hope to utilize ) is to have the TR40 just pass the TVG feed on to the target unit, with the target unit programmed with the original zip code. this would likely require manual editing of the actual channel numbers to get the tuner lined up properly, but simple enough to do... i cannot fully test this arrangement currently without disconnecting the cox feed altogether, since cox is apparently providing the TVG feed via catv analog channel 10 ( PBS ) and the panasonic DVR is locking onto that channel... however, i will advise as soon as i've managed to accomplish this test....
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post #47 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

What do you think, should it work? Can you set your E-85 up in this manner (OTA + STB?) I'm seeming to remember that only the EH-55 and EH-75 have this feature but I'm not positive.

I don't think I have that option on the E85. It seemed to be pretty much "antenna" or "cable box" in the setup screen. No "both" option that I recall.

I'm not sure exactly if or how the setup would work with your EH-55. If the CM can take "coded" inputs of "211" for 11.1, etc., you might be able to pull it off.

I don't doubt that the digital TVGOS listings are correct, but I think some of the channels (e.g, 23) are lost in translation when being converted. Maybe someone will solve this (I don't know who to contact), or maybe we're such an extreme minority that this is all we'll ever get (which is fine, I don't record ch 23 that much, and a manual timer can cover it).
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post #48 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 02:16 PM
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Yes I don't really record from 23.1 (CW) or even 41 (Ion) so that wouldn't be a big deal for me either. I think I'll wait for the analog shutoff (and I lose my TVGOS) before I start worrying about it. At least with your post I know somehow I'll be able to keep my EH-55's guide working. If I actually have to record from the Pal then I'll live with it, it's better than no guide at all.
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post #49 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

If I actually have to record from the Pal then I'll live with it, it's better than no guide at all.

You say that now, but you may have second thoughts upon actually seeing it.

(Really, it'll depend on the type and size of the TV. Also, I never got to mention before that my Pal actually looks better through the E85H than it does through the EH55, for some reason. It's not as sharp through the EH55.)
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post #50 of 1484 Old 03-01-2009, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

for some reason. It's not as sharp through the EH55.)

Could it be your input settings on the EH-55? Not sure if you're aware but if you push DISPLAY when in the line input mode you'll have a choice of a couple different sharpness modes. I can't remember the exact wording right now but I can check it later if you want.
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post #51 of 1484 Old 03-02-2009, 12:56 AM
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Naw, I did that - makes no difference. It still looks OK on the 32" analog - it just doesn't seem quite as sharp. I guess I can fiddle around with it some more - but it's so little difference that I never really think of it.
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post #52 of 1484 Old 03-03-2009, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Courtesy of Gemstar...

TVGOS Inserters send clock packets four times per minute to devices. These are in UTC time.

When a device first searches for a host, it will accept UTC time from any TVGOS host.

Once it finds a host station in its Zip Code, it will receive a time zone packet, which will tell it how much to offset from UTC time.

These packets arrive several times per hour. The device should then set itself to local time.

Time zone packets for legacy versions (v7 & below) are only granular to a host. G4 (v8 & v9 devices) time zone packets are granular to zip codes and thus can avoid the clock being off in border areas because of hosts in a different time zone.

Each TVGOS device puts out clock beats and the guide calculates how many of these occur per minute. These are used to run the TVGOS clock. Each device (TV, DVR) has clock drift of some amount. Once a day TVGOS tries to calculate this clock drift, by comparing a clock packet to the TVGOS clock, and adjusting itself to compensate for it. Each day it checks again and adjusts the number of beats per minute. A device whose clock drifts beyond the clock sanity level (15 minutes) will stop accepting clock packets from the guide because it thinks there are from tape (TotFrTape). A device whose clock is off by more than 15 minutes could be reset to force the clock to reset from the host. Some devices reset their clock every time they are powered off. Others need to be reset to force a clock to reset that is off by more than the clock sanity level (15 minutes).
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post #53 of 1484 Old 03-03-2009, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Section Screens
System System Info Statistics
Screen Layout Ads +> Demo
Other Clocks +>
ATSC ATSC Slicer
Recording Recordings Summary History Recordings Detail +>
Comm Serial Phone/GLink Modem
Setup Input Configuration Tuner Configuration Record Device Configuration Record Out Support
Memory Heap Info Database Info AdTrack Gestalt NVM Data NVM Priority FDB Listings Pgm GC Channels
VBI Data VBI Info Packet VBIDLSched +> VBIDL +> Inst Env +> Inst Env Misc Task Misc Packetmatch +> Packet Images +>
Reception Slicing +> VBI Stats
Reset Info Statistics Dumps Error Tracker +>
+> means possibly more than one screen, i.e. Clocks 1 & Clocks 2
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post #54 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 10:44 AM
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The only TV reception I receive is from cable, no STB. The only channel on the cable which contains TVGOS data is the local PBS unencrypted digital channel. Can I hook the cable input to a DTVPAL box tuned to this channel and get this channel with the TVGOS data on analog channel 3 or 4 during the night. If so, can I then turn off the box and pass thru all the analog channels on the cable which the cable company says will be there for at least another 3 years.
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post #55 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 11:31 AM
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You can try, although I don't believe anyone has reported they've successfully used the Pal to convert the signal from cable so far.
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post #56 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

You can try, although I don't believe anyone has reported they've successfully used the Pal to convert the signal from cable so far.

I don't have a Pal, thats why I'm asking before I get one. In theory I don't see why it won't work.
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post #57 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Section Screens
System System Info Statistics
Screen Layout Ads +> Demo
Other Clocks +>
ATSC ATSC Slicer
Recording Recordings Summary History Recordings Detail +>
Comm Serial Phone/GLink Modem
Setup Input Configuration Tuner Configuration Record Device Configuration Record Out Support
Memory Heap Info Database Info AdTrack Gestalt NVM Data NVM Priority FDB Listings Pgm GC Channels
VBI Data VBI Info Packet VBIDLSched +> VBIDL +> Inst Env +> Inst Env Misc Task Misc Packetmatch +> Packet Images +>
Reception Slicing +> VBI Stats
Reset Info Statistics Dumps Error Tracker +>
+> means possibly more than one screen, i.e. Clocks 1 & Clocks 2

May I ask where you got this map?...it's clearly helpful for figuring out what's going on with a Sony 250 (which I have), but I'm curious if the same source had comparable info for version 7 ( and therefore my LG3410a)...thanks

OTA only. For signal strength at your location:
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TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from
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, not any more.

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post #58 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by arnjohn View Post

I don't have a Pal, thats why I'm asking before I get one. In theory I don't see why it won't work.

Cable video programming is modulated using QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation) instead of 8VSB (vestigial side band) which is used OTA (over the air). Part of the CECB (Coupon Eligible Converter Box) requirements mandate that the box be "dumbed down" so that it only works for OTA and NTSC. An ATSC tuner box that can demodulate QAM is not "Coupon Eligible":

Quote:


There are many great features such a QAM tuner, Component Outputs and HDMI Connections that are NOT included in the CECBs. There are several other boxes on the market that do have these added features, but you can't use the coupons.
...
You may choose to purchase a non-coupon eligible converter box with additional features that do not have the NTIA limitations. These features may include:
  • QAM tuner to receive digital cable signals.
  • Component output for resolutions higher than standard video.
  • HDMI output for High-Definition. (HDTV)
  • Digital Optical output to connect to home theater systems.
  • Dolby Digital output for theater quality sound.
  • Antenna (RF) pass-through to allow analog signals to the TV.
  • Selectable DTV Output Formats (1080i/720p/480p/i).
  • Programmable Remote Control.
Update: The non-coupon eligible DTVPal DVR is now for sale.
The new DTVPal DVR digital-to-analog converter box is the first to offer digital video recording (DVR) and high-definition (HD) capabilities along with analog pass-through. No contract or monthly fees.

The DTVPal is a CECB (sorry the best I could find on the site was DTVPal+). So it can not tune QAM, meaning it's worthless on a cable network.
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post #59 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 02:03 PM
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Correct, with analog cable, channels 2-13 were the same as OTA 2-13. With QAM no channels will be compatible with OTA, even 2-13.
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post #60 of 1484 Old 03-04-2009, 02:21 PM
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Thanks for the info.
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