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post #91 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpalmer2k View Post
Right now with one antenna pointed at 83 I pick up all of the Blue channels, and traces of the Yellow ones coming off the back side.
Have you considered simply drilling out the rivets holding the reflector on your antenna, and removing it? That will allow the signal level for the backside channels to go up since it won't be blocking the backside channels anymore.

If you are careful removing it, but it doesn't work like you want, you can use screws to replace it back the way it was.
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post #92 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 12:27 PM
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cpalmer2k:

Thanks for the tvfool report for your location in Blacksburg, SC which puts you a little WSW of the Blacksburg High School if my estimate isn't too far off. I did a tvfool report for my estimate which shows that a small change of location makes a difference with uneven terrain.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03bd57e1e886

I will study your report to see if I can figure something out, but it's difficult with so many channels at different azimuths; no guarantees.

Quote:
Antenna #2 would point towards 283 degrees (WHNS) which would put it near the two weakest stations I'm trying to pick up on the other side.
Which two?

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Last edited by rabbit73; 10-02-2015 at 12:53 PM.
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post #93 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 12:39 PM
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cpalmer2k:

Interesting suggestion by Primestar31 which would make the antenna bi-directional, with a little less gain, but still with a beamwidth more narrow than a DB4e.

Are you using a preamp?

I did an FMFOOL report for your estimated location which shows some strong local FM signals that might interfere with TV reception.

A HLSJ would probably have less insertion loss when used as an FM filter than a conventional FM filter.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 10-02-2015 at 12:54 PM.
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post #94 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
cpalmer2k:

Which two?
WHNS & WMYA. Pointing at the WHNS cluster would be the midway point for that group of stations (or as close to it as I can reasonably get). WMYA would be to the South of that location.

I am using a pre-amp. That's the reason I hesitate to go with the reflector idea. WAXN comes in very poorly now, I'm afraid it would kill that channel all together. The antenna was installed by a local dealer, so I'm not sure what model preamp is used. I believe it to be an older 7777 though. If it EVER stops raining here I'm going to climb up and find out. We're projected to get up to 13" this weekend.

I believe the pre-amp has am FM filter, but I won't know until it clears and I can climb up to find out. I appreciate the input. I'd love to find a single antenna solution and maybe just add a vhf one to my setup instead

Last edited by cpalmer2k; 10-02-2015 at 03:54 PM.
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post #95 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 04:06 PM
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Here is a mapped representation of the stations I get, and their distribution. I find this easier to read myself:

WMYT and WBTV break up from time to time, so I suspect some of that interference you mention might be causing that. I've also wondered if my pre-amp is overloading them, as they're some of my strongest signals.
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post #96 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 04:49 PM
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Nice diagram, thanks. All I had was this:
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post #97 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 05:40 PM
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Something is not clear to me. Are all the signal reports on your diagram for when the antenna is only aimed in one direction at 83, or are the reports for the west when aimed at 283?

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #98 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Something is not clear to me. Are all the signal reports on your diagram for when the antenna is only aimed in one direction at 83, or are the reports for the west when aimed at 283?
That is strictly when it is aimed at 83. I've never moved it.

After thinking over everything you guys have recommended though I'm wondering if I should just turn the antenna? I'm getting really good backside reception when you consider how far away those channels are vs. the front side ones. If I "turned" the antenna to 283 I might get the distant channels I'm wanting, and still get the 83 stations off the backside?

Or take the suggestion and remove the reflectors. Again my signals are so high on the front side, it might not make such a difference.

What do I remove on my antenna though if I go that route, it's a WG 8800. It doesn't have a "screen" per say like most reflectors are?
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post #99 of 151 Old 10-02-2015, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
If I "turned" the antenna to 283 I might get the distant channels I'm wanting, and still get the 83 stations off the backside?
Try that first.

If that doesn't work, try removing the 18 reflector rods marked "R."

If that doesn't work, you will need an A/B switch for two antennas which isn't compatible with recording
or
a separate tuner for each antenna
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post #100 of 151 Old 10-13-2015, 11:24 AM
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I received my channel 46 Slovak "jointenna" device from Slovakia today! 12 days from ordering it from the Ebay link I posted higher in this thread (not bad at all). It's set DCpass on both inputs (so I can put a preamp between antennas and device) It's also set to American ATSC frequencies.

That auction has now ended, but here's the newest auction link for anybody else that wants to try one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Selective-co...item1c5a7f6493
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post #101 of 151 Old 10-13-2015, 11:31 AM
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Have you tried to see how well it works? You can't beat the price.
I ordered three of them. I don't have them yet but they were sent on Oct 8.
The specs are as follows:

1 pc for channel 27 = 518 - 526MHz
1 pc for channel 40 = 622 - 630MHz
1 pc for channel 47 = 678 - 686MHz.
All DC pass.
John
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post #102 of 151 Old 10-13-2015, 11:35 AM
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I only just opened the mail package in the last 1/2 hour, so no, I haven't had time to install it as of yet. Unlike a real CM Jointenna, (which is in a plastic case) it's in a metal case that has the back cover spot-soldered on.

It's seems very well built, and I have no doubts it should work well. I'm impressed, and I think the device, delivery service and price is just right!

Tin Lee quoted me $170 for the same thing. Now, Tin Lee's device MIGHT be superior, but that's a lot of money to me for something like this.

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post #103 of 151 Old 10-14-2015, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdish View Post
...I ordered three of them. I don't have them yet but they were sent on Oct 8.
The specs are as follows:

1 pc for channel 27 = 518 - 526MHz
1 pc for channel 40 = 622 - 630MHz
1 pc for channel 47 = 678 - 686MHz.
All DC pass.
What are the call letters of the channels you want them to pass?
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post #104 of 151 Old 10-14-2015, 05:16 AM
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The original eBay listing depicts a device with two input terminals: one that filter-passes two selected channels and the other one is an all-other thru line.

The current eBay listing depicts a device labeled as a single filtered input channel, combined with a thru-line.

I was not able to pull up the original page to see if its description of selectable filtering capabilities differed from the current page.

On the company website, the first product group shows the Combiner 1 and Combiner 2 products each having just two inputs, with one filter-passing two selected channels from one antenna, whereas their Combiner 3 has four input terminal, allowing the three selected channels to come from three dedicated antennas, combined with a fourth, thru line. That last product, which can combine three, single channel antennas with a broadband antenna will surely be the most useful if and when it is made available here.
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post #105 of 151 Old 10-14-2015, 09:13 AM
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My TVFool http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03e147b94081
I have an antenna aimed Northwest for Hartford and will add WJAR, WLNE, WLWC and WSBE with two combiners from an antenna aimed Northeast and WCTX from another antenna aimed West.
John
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post #106 of 151 Old 10-14-2015, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdish View Post
My TVFool http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03e147b94081
I have an antenna aimed Northwest for Hartford and will add WJAR, WLNE, WLWC and WSBE with two combiners from an antenna aimed Northeast and WCTX from another antenna aimed West.
John
Can you reliably get all those 5 channels now without amplification by pointing the antenna at them?

You still have a hairy situation because of the relative strength of 26 and 17. If I were you I would not preamplify any of them until after the initial filtering. Do you have a signal meter? If so, when you point an antenna for 20/21, which are at 63° and 47°, you should find the azimuth in that range that gets you the weakest 26. I'd put a 10dB pad on your main antenna, and go first into the EU47 coupler to mix in 49/50, then take that output and use it as the "all" input to the EU27 coupler to add in 21/22, and then gently preamplify that combined output. By gently, I mean 10 to 12 dB unless you are distributing through a large house with long wiring runs and multiple splits.

To add in WCTX-39, you have problems, because your channel 26 which is on almost the same target line is 64dB stronger, and even after this bandpass filtering, amplification might hammer 39 with intermodulation anyway. You can try gentle amplification of the EU40 output, using it as just a bandpass filter, and then use a simple, two-way combiner to couple it with your gently amplified EU27's output, but you might give Microwave Filter Company a ring and tell them you'd like any old cable TV cylindrical high-pass tier trap that will pass your UHF 39 (roughly cable channel 90) while blocking your UHF 26 (roughly cable channel 77) and put that ahead of your EU40's input. That is a pretty wide range of obsolete, cable company tier traps that they might have one of sitting on the shelf that they could sell you for maybe $30.

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post #107 of 151 Old 10-15-2015, 08:30 AM
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I have the setup working pretty well using jointennas. It is not completely reliable. Every once in a while a station will be too weak to be received. This in normally during the mid day time. A far bigger problem occurs when propagation gets "good" then many of my channels are lost to on channel interferance. This is frequent during summer evenings. I have two Tinlee channel deletion filters. Each attenuates channels 17 and 26. One is on the Northeast antenna and one on the Northwest antenna. I use preamps on all antennas and see no difference with the filters before or after the preamps.
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post #108 of 151 Old 10-28-2015, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
I discovered a UHF Jointenna device on Ebay, which is manufactured in Slovakia for their DVB-T system. However, it really only cares about the particular frequencies it's tuned for, as it's a bandpass/bandstop combiner. We just give them that info, and they set it. Their tv system is UHF only, so I'm unsure if they can provide VHF versions (I didn't ask this as I don't need a VHF one at this time). I've been in contact with the seller, and he said we can order one of these and provide a note before paying with this info:



NOTE: DC PASS is needed, IF you intend on powering a preamp between the antenna and this combiner. Could be useful if these channels are very weak.

U.S. UHF channel frequency listing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...ncies#UHF_band

INPUT 1 = The 'all-channel' antenna minus the channel on input 2
INPUT 2 = The 'single channel' antenna minus all the other channels on input 1
OUTPUT = combined input 1 and input 2 to tv set.

$19.90 US which includes shipping!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121758149132...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Home URL: http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...zlucovace.html



I just ordered one of these today. Thanks for posting, this is the combiner I have been looking for!
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post #109 of 151 Old 11-06-2015, 09:17 PM
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Be sure to communicate the desired CENTER CHANNEL FREQUENCY and 6 MHz Bandwidth, since Europe DVB-T uses different Channel Spacing than 6 MHz used in North America. In Europe, UHF Channels are apparently standardized, using 8 MHz Channel Spacings:
http://igorfuna.com/dvb-t/digital/tv...el-frequencies

However, in VHF Band, they differ depending on whether 5, 7 or 8 MHz Channel Spacing is used in a particular region:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televi...:VHF_Usage.svg
Based on their use of Ch1-12 in the Filter Specs, I'm pretty sure they're using the "Western Europe" Frequency Assignments (top of the above chart).

If the desired ATSC 6 MHz wide signal is within 1 MHz or Overlaps one of the Euro Band Edges, you may need a Custom Order centered on the North America Center Frequency.
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post #110 of 151 Old 11-09-2015, 06:05 PM
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I've asked the current ebay seller about the US vs Europe bandwidths and getting the three channel version noted on their site. This was over the weekend, will report back once a response is received.

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post #111 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 03:19 PM
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Current ebay seller states they can get the Main antenna pass and add 3, w/6Mhz spacing for $32.90 here is the "supposed" specs. Ships in a couple days, presume it would take a couple weeks to make the trip. They get direct from factory.

As I have all my injectors after my combining right now I don't see the need for DC Pass on anything, but possibly I'm missing something. Looking to possibly inject 17, 22 & 49.

Seems like it is worth a try.


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post #112 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 03:28 PM
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DC PASS doesn't cost you anything extra, and you never know if you'll reconfigure in the future and need it. So, it's safest to just add it right from the start.


My first order from them took less than two weeks, and my second order took over three weeks. That's to Michigan.


The versions for a single channel work perfectly here in the US, if there's enough space between that channel and others that you need or want. I don't know how the 2 or 3 channel versions would work. Please let use know once you have it installed.

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post #113 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint Ridge View Post
Looking to possibly inject 17, 22 & 49.
Does this image imply coax inputs from four different antennas? Would your channels 17, 22 and 49 come from three separate antennas?
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post #114 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
The versions for a single channel work perfectly here in the US.
Did you notice any signal weakening? When I used a ChannelMaster Jointenna to merge two antennas, I immediately noticed about a 5% drop in signal strength on all my channels. Since I didn't like that effect, I ordered a similar selective channel combiner from Tin Lee thinking it would be better (because pricier) and saw the same signal diminishment.
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post #115 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwam View Post
Did you notice any signal weakening? When I used a ChannelMaster Jointenna to merge two antennas, I immediately noticed about a 5% drop in signal strength on all my channels. Since I didn't like that effect, I ordered a similar selective channel combiner from Tin Lee thinking it would be better (because pricier) and saw the same signal diminishment.
Of course there's a slight drop in signal, that's the nature of the beast. It's not possible to do this sort of combining without some loss of signal. You need to find a way to balance everything that works for you. Maybe adding some amplification can help, or even attenuation on one antenna, etc.


It's all Black Magic/Voodoo anyway, so experimentation is the best part (fun) of it all.


p.s. Jan also has this nifty device listed on Ebay, I have one, and it works well also! They are TINY, with built-in channel filter! Once again, you have to let him know what channel, frequency spread, and filter config you want. Oh, it doesn't come with a power supply. You'll need a power inserter, and 12 volt power brick. Mine is powered through the power supply on my Kitztech-200 amp, which is on my "all-channel" antenna, and this is on my channel 20 antenna.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/UHF-selectiv...YAAOSwI-BWMP8n



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post #116 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 04:20 PM
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Oh, I have not ordered it yet. Hopefully very soon. Probably wait for warmer weather to get it going.

Primestar31, your suggestion makes sense to just go ahead with DC pass, might be useful down the road. No harm to have it. Good to hear it only takes a few weeks.

bwam, yes it implies that a user could do a Main antenna and possibly add 3 additional channels. In my case I get 17 and 22 off the backside and it is not always "perfect". As in I've lost a rear channel twice in the past 6 months or so. Which is unacceptable. I have a spare 91XG that I plan to pick up those two stronger rear stations, split that signal and and let the inputs filter it I presume... Now you are making me think. CH 49 will be an experiment to see IF I can pick it up once I stack or gang a couple of 91XG's, then insert that station. It is a weak, low wattage repeater

I would expect some drop as noted in the design spec's. Currently I feel like a have a couple db to spare off the front (though my weakest front station is -10NM(db)) and am willing to give it a go (with =20db gain on that channel, but my SNR is currently holding @ 30+). IF Ch. 49 can take the insertion loss, is unknown. Worst case I just play tropo with it to the South and run it straight into a dedicated Aero-M.

This is all an experiment.

What I do not know is how much collateral damage there will be to adjacent channels. My CH 17 is adjacent to an CH 18 PBS, could I lose it, probably. Do I have another PBS - yes at about 60NM. Ch 22 might take out 21, and Indy station I never watch, no concern there.

But for crazy folks like myself, it provides an interesting challenge.

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post #117 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 04:28 PM
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So, is there a concern if on the injected channel includes signals beyond that one, ie my 17 & 22?

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post #118 of 151 Old 11-10-2015, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint Ridge View Post
So, is there a concern if on the injected channel includes signals beyond that one, ie my 17 & 22?
I'm not sure what you are asking here, as it's phrased oddly. Channel 17 and channel 22 are far enough apart that if you are trying to eliminate them from your "all-channel" antenna input, and inject them from the individual channel inputs, it should work. Depending on the signal levels of other channels that is.


These combiner devices are nothing more or less than the same thing as our old Jointenna device. Albeit better shielded, and seem to be a little tighter tuned. And without the $170 cost of the Tin-Lee Ac7 device


IF you have one or more channels that are real blow-torches, and/or too close in azimuth to your single channels, that can cause big problems without taking further measures, such as single channel notch filters, etc.


You'd be well advised to use a very tightly beamed antenna, such as the 91xg or HDB91x (91xg clone, and what I use)

Last edited by Primestar31; 11-11-2015 at 01:54 AM.
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post #119 of 151 Old 11-11-2015, 07:13 AM
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Jan also has this nifty device listed on Ebay, I have one, and it works well also! They are TINY, with built-in channel filter.
Since I am going to have an antenna dedicated to one channel (it is 85 degrees away from all the other channels), will this act as a pre-amp and channel selector at the same time for just that channel on this other (not main) antenna? I can then send the output of this device via coax to a standard splitter\combiner to merge with the main antenna without needing a Jointenna type device between the two antennas? Thanks.
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post #120 of 151 Old 11-11-2015, 11:57 AM
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Since I am going to have an antenna dedicated to one channel (it is 85 degrees away from all the other channels), will this act as a pre-amp and channel selector at the same time for just that channel on this other (not main) antenna? I can then send the output of this device via coax to a standard splitter\combiner to merge with the main antenna without needing a Jointenna type device between the two antennas? Thanks.

It will act as a preamp and filter for a single channel. Whether it can be combined to your "all channel" antenna withOUT a Jointenna device is problematical.

It really should be used with a Jointenna device, but it may work the way you describe above. No guarantees though, it all depends on how strong a signal your other antenna receives.
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