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post #2971 of 2993 Old 11-03-2016, 08:22 AM
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It all makes sense now, but I have to admit I wasn't aware that it would take over 3 years to "repack" the TV spectrum. Somehow I was imagining that everyone would get their new RF assignments, build and/or upgrade facilities as needed, then in a couple of years when everyone was ready, the whole country would cut over to their new slots all at once.

I guess I was naive in thinking it would be like the digital transition that way, but instead it sounds like it'll be a gradual process, with stations moving a few at a time. Even some stations that are already below the new RF cutoff may need to move in order to avoid interference with other stations that have to move. Which means viewers will have to rescan over and over, any time some of the stations in their area move.

Also, ATSC 3.0 will probably be finalized long before repacking is completed. While that's good in the long run, I think stations who move after 3.0 becomes an option will be very tempted to switch to 3.0 at the same time, even if they don't have a "sister" station that can remain at 1.0 - especially if their new RF assignment is in the VHF-Lo band. That means OTA viewers may have to buy new antennas*, tuners, DVRs, etc., in order to keep watching some of their local stations.

Could they possibly have made this process any more irritating, annoying, and painful? Seems like everyone was consulted for their input except the viewers!


*I expect folks who thought they needed to buy new "HDTV" antennas during the digital transition will be disappointed to discover that they have to switch back to old-style all-band antennas when their favorite station winds up on RF 2!
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post #2972 of 2993 Old 11-03-2016, 12:33 PM
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How true, how true

Best quote of the entire thread ------> "Could they possibly have made this process any more irritating, annoying, and painful? Seems like everyone was consulted for their input except the viewers!"

I personally am on the fence regarding the adoption of ATSC 3.0.
As I understand it, ATSC 3.0 has not been approved yet and is not part of the repacking process

But the repacking process is going to indeed be one big pain for those of us who actually watch OTA TV. I certainly hope Lo-VHF is not used very much in the repack. I've put up three antennas recently (mine and two friends). Hate to think I've got to spend another $600 to get us all fixed up (again) to receive low Lo-VHF stations like we used to.
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post #2973 of 2993 Old 11-03-2016, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
It all makes sense now, but I have to admit I wasn't aware that it would take over 3 years to "repack" the TV spectrum. Somehow I was imagining that everyone would get their new RF assignments, build and/or upgrade facilities as needed, then in a couple of years when everyone was ready, the whole country would cut over to their new slots all at once.

I guess I was naive in thinking it would be like the digital transition that way, but instead it sounds like it'll be a gradual process, with stations moving a few at a time. Even some stations that are already below the new RF cutoff may need to move in order to avoid interference with other stations that have to move. Which means viewers will have to rescan over and over, any time some of the stations in their area move.
One of the hard requirements of the model included in the transition public notice is that no more than two rescans are required in any DMA as a result of channel changes. This is designed specifically to help viewers. (Modeling just one scan per DMA showed that it would be almost identical to a single date at the end rather than breaking it up over time.)

Remember that during the DTV transition stations operated in both analog and digital--on both channels--until the transition date. Stations will not have that luxury this time around. That is the idea behind the phased transition; it allows stations to transition over to their new channels with limited disruption to viewers as that equipment is replaced or upgraded.

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As I understand it, ATSC 3.0 has not been approved yet and is not part of the repacking process
This is correct.

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post #2974 of 2993 Old 11-03-2016, 12:47 PM
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One of the goals of the repack is to not require viewers to rescan for new channel assignments more than twice during the whole 3-year process. I think we can handle that, but it does make the repack more difficult. Still, much of the reason for this whole mess is ultimately the wireless user, which includes consumers of OTA TV. We like the ever-increasing options wireless carriers are providing.
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post #2975 of 2993 Old 11-20-2016, 09:20 AM
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Looks like Stage 3 of the reverse auction will finish up on Dec. 1 if it has 53 rounds like Stage 2 did. Then the Stage 3 forward auction will start in the 2nd week of December. Even if that gets cut short it seems unlikely that Stage 4 would start in December because it would interfere with Christmas and New Years, too many people on vacation.

Seems to me that 2016 was just prep work for the real auction that begins in January 2017. Should there be a Stage 5 we're looking at March.
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post #2976 of 2993 Old 11-21-2016, 10:05 AM
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Old guy is not so sure

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.....We like the ever-increasing options wireless carriers are providing.
This OTA guy is not quite sure of that just yet......
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post #2977 of 2993 Old 11-28-2016, 09:31 AM
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This might be of interest.

http://www.freepress.net/sites/defau...l_10-20-16.pdf

Take it with a grain of salt though; I suspect there was some inconsistency in how stations that answered did so, and stations in groups often have a single answer across the whole group which could mean "some number of the group is participating" but not necessarily that all the stations are. For example, participation could mean moving from UHF to VHF, but a station may have answered the survey assuming it meant "accept the go off air bid". Or a station in a duopoly may have put in one station or the other but not both but counted both as "participating" since the other will be a channel sharing host.

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post #2978 of 2993 Old 11-28-2016, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
This might be of interest.

http://www.freepress.net/sites/defau...l_10-20-16.pdf

Take it with a grain of salt though; I suspect there was some inconsistency in how stations that answered did so, and stations in groups often have a single answer across the whole group which could mean "some number of the group is participating" but not necessarily that all the stations are. For example, participation could mean moving from UHF to VHF, but a station may have answered the survey assuming it meant "accept the go off air bid". Or a station in a duopoly may have put in one station or the other but not both but counted both as "participating" since the other will be a channel sharing host.

- Trip
THANKS TRIP.

As a non-engineer non-TV broadcast professional this is the first article describing this whole process that I can actually understand.
It all makes sense to me now.
I wonder just how much true "demand" the wireless companies claimed they had for this spectrum is actually there.
The old phrase "put your money where your mouth is" comes to my mind........
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post #2979 of 2993 Old 11-28-2016, 10:26 AM
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One more thing.

https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/p..._announcements

The current reverse stage will end 12/1; looks like up to five rounds will be stuffed into 12/1 to make it happen. Next forward stage is tentatively scheduled for 12/5 but the date will be announced when the reverse stage ends.

- Trip
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post #2980 of 2993 Old 12-01-2016, 01:39 PM
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Stage 3 reverse ended at $40.3 billion.



- Trip

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post #2981 of 2993 Old 12-01-2016, 02:23 PM
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Seems unlikely the wireless companies will bid that high. On to Stage 4! January 2, 2017 start?
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post #2982 of 2993 Old 12-01-2016, 02:36 PM
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If it doesn't close? Probably sooner than that.

- Trip

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post #2983 of 2993 Old Today, 10:35 AM
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Stage 3 of the forward auction was terminated after only 1 round. The bid was even lower than the last round. Makes me wonder how much interest there actually is in 600 MHz spectrum and if Stage 4 will be the end.

Nearly a year has passed and the wireless companies have yet to submit a serious bid. The FCC needs to streamline the reverse auction. Get it done in a week. Conduct four or five 30 minute rounds per day. A month or longer to conduct 50+ rounds is too long. Drop the broadcaster bids to 75% of Stage 3 so the total is $30B. If that's too low for them they can drop out.

Last edited by Calaveras; Today at 12:21 PM.
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post #2984 of 2993 Old Today, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Stage 3 of the forward auction was terminated after only 1 round. The bid was even lower than the last round. Makes me wonder how much interest there actually is in 600 MHz spectrum and if Stage 4 will be the end.

Nearly a year has passed and the wireless companies have yet to submit a serious bid. The FCC needs to streamline the reverse auction. Get it done in a week. Conduct four or five 30 minute rounds per day. A month or longer to conduct 50+ rounds is too long. Drop the broadcaster bids to 75% of Stage 3 so the total is $30B. If that's too low for them they can drop out.
Stage 4 begins 12/13.

If we go past stage 4, then the subsequent stages should be faster.

- Trip

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post #2985 of 2993 Old Today, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Stage 3 of the forward auction was terminated after only 1 round. The bid was even lower than the last round. Makes me wonder how much interest there actually is in 600 MHz spectrum and if Stage 4 will be the end.

Nearly a year has passed and the wireless companies have yet to submit a serious bid. The FCC needs to streamline the reverse auction. Get it done in a week. Conduct four or five 30 minute rounds per day. A month or longer to conduct 50+ rounds is too long. Drop the broadcaster bids to 75% of Stage 3 so the total is $30B. If that's too low for them they can drop out.
Sounds like you are in a hurry to loose your favorite channels and start the repacking process.

I say take all the time you need and more
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post #2986 of 2993 Old Today, 03:32 PM
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Looks like someone else isn't very happy with how the auction is going. Check out the end.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/000...billion/279941

If Stage 4 doesn't wrap this up then one has to wonder if they have any real interest anymore in 600MHz. This auction has been years in the making. Have spectrum interests changed? I've heard (don't know for sure) that wireless is looking more at higher frequencies these days.
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post #2987 of 2993 Old Today, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
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Have spectrum interests changed? I've heard (don't know for sure) that wireless is looking more at higher frequencies these days.
The FCC has set aside some millimeter bands for 5G. They are:

27.5 to 28.35 GHz
37 to 38.6 GHz
38.6 to 40 GHz

and 64 to 71 GHz for unlicensed (there's already an unlicensed band at 57 to 64 GHz that hardly anybody knows about).

https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-ado...s-technologies

The 28 GHz band is already licensed to LMDS (Local Multipoint Distribution Service) operators that don't use it. This is why Verizon bought a company called XO Communications. XO has LMDS licenses that Verizon will recycle for 5G without having to bid on them in an auction.

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post #2988 of 2993 Old Today, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Looks like someone else isn't very happy with how the auction is going. Check out the end.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/000...billion/279941

If Stage 4 doesn't wrap this up then one has to wonder if they have any real interest anymore in 600MHz. This auction has been years in the making. Have spectrum interests changed? I've heard (don't know for sure) that wireless is looking more at higher frequencies these days.
The wireless companies wanted to have the option to buy all the 600 MHz space, but probably were never sure how much it would be worth to them by the time the auctions took place. Now with higher frequencies looking better and better they don't want to tie up the capital.

The biggest losers may be the spectrum speculators, buying up stations, turning many into mush, and now possibly being stuck with them or having to sell at less than they paid. Few will shed tears over that...
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post #2989 of 2993 Old Today, 06:22 PM
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The biggest losers may be the spectrum speculators, buying up stations, turning many into mush, and now possibly being stuck with them or having to sell at less than they paid. Few will shed tears over that...
In DFW we had a speculator buy the local MundoMax affiliate, which operates on RF 9 (VHF). Guess they thought that VHF slot might be valuable to one of the 10 or so UHF-Hi (channel 38 & up) stations likely to need a new, lower-frequency slot. Now KFWD is nothing but religious and shopping channels.

No matter what you think of MundoMax, it's hard to see how that change served the public interest. So we've already suffered at the hands of this spectrum auction even before it started!
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post #2990 of 2993 Old Today, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
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Now KFWD is nothing but religious and shopping channels.

No matter what you think of MundoMax, it's hard to see how that change served the public interest. So we've already suffered at the hands of this spectrum auction even before it started!
I will point out that MundoMax went out of business on November 30 and it was cutting its affiliations in the months leading up to it. KFWD would have dropped MundoMax regardless of whether or not NRJ had bought it.

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post #2991 of 2993 Old Today, 07:49 PM
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The biggest losers may be the spectrum speculators, buying up stations, turning many into mush, and now possibly being stuck with them or having to sell at less than they paid. Few will shed tears over that...

There were several companies buying up low power licenses and construction permits. I don't understand their strategy as LP stations are not part of the auction. DTV America comes to mind. They bought several CPs around here (Sacramento DMA) but only one has been built and it's on channel 45, guaranteed to go unless the auction is a complete failure.
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post #2992 of 2993 Old Today, 08:36 PM
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I was aware of MundoMax's troubles, and I realize that keeping their KFWD affiliation was unlikely to reverse their decline. They started out as MundoFox, but many of their other affiliates were low-power. KFWD was an exception. So even with the marketing muscle of Fox behind them, they really had an uphill battle. Once Fox sold them, it was pretty much all over.

To be fair, there are a lot of folks around these parts who enjoy watching Jimmy Swaggart Ministries in HD (even though JSM is also on two local LPTVs and another full-power station in SD). So my opinion of its new lineup may not be universally shared. But I doubt KFWD would have become the wasteland it is now if it weren't for folks buying it just in hopes of flipping it in the upcoming auction.
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post #2993 of 2993 Old Today, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
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I was aware of MundoMax's troubles, and I realize that keeping their KFWD affiliation was unlikely to reverse their decline. They started out as MundoFox, but many of their other affiliates were low-power. KFWD was an exception. So even with the marketing muscle of Fox behind them, they really had an uphill battle. Once Fox sold them, it was pretty much all over.

Looks like we have the identical situation in San Francisco. KCNS 38 is owned and operated by the same people as KFWD except it was labeled MundoFox. It also went to SBN in HD a few months back. It's one of several SF stations on my list of likely auction participants.
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