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post #2731 of 2861 Old 03-13-2012, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post

I agree 100%, and while DVDs and internet access of shows are alternatives to ads, most folks (myself included) are too lazy to go through all that it takes to get the change-over done.

I'm to lazy to pay $1200 a year for commercial saturated crap programming. It takes a lot less work to hook up an antenna than it does to make $1200.

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post #2732 of 2861 Old 03-13-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

I'm to lazy to pay $1200 a year for commercial saturated crap programming. It takes a lot less work to hook up an antenna than it does to make $1200.

Oh, I most definitely have the tower/antenna with cabling to several televisions. I love OTA.
What I don't have is a HTPC and all the networking to send it out. Nor have I purchased DVDs.
I was mostly talking about trying to get away from advertisements.
I am very jealous of the spectrum that might go away, and hope the stations don't pretend they're railroads and sell their "right of way."
Once it's gone, it ain't coming back.
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post #2733 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post

Oh, I most definitely have the tower/antenna with cabling to several televisions. I love OTA.
What I don't have is a HTPC and all the networking to send it out. Nor have I purchased DVDs.
I was mostly talking about trying to get away from advertisements.
I am very jealous of the spectrum that might go away, and hope the stations don't pretend they're railroads and sell their "right of way."
Once it's gone, it ain't coming back.

The major networks have already said they have nothing to sell. The stations that do sell will be low power stations that are stuggling.

I've been buying DVDs for 10 years and I have quite a big selection. A lot of the movies I bought only cost around $5 each. It makes me shake my head when I hear about a cable channel playing the same movie over and over thats full of commercials and screen clutter and the DVD of the movie cost $5.

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post #2734 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

The major networks have already said they have nothing to sell. The stations that do sell will be low power stations that are stuggling.

Suits me perfectly, although I watch some of those low power stations. Love me some HD for free!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

I've been buying DVDs for 10 years and I have quite a big selection. A lot of the movies I bought only cost around $5 each. It makes me shake my head when I hear about a cable channel playing the same movie over and over thats full of commercials and screen clutter and the DVD of the movie cost $5.

But that takes planning and thought. I tend to simply surf and land on this or that. A lot of the movies I end up watching I knew nothing about.
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post #2735 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post

Suits me perfectly, although I watch some of those low power stations. Love me some HD for free!

Do you have low-power stations there that broadcast in HD?  None of the -LD's or -CD's in the Chicago DMA do, and there are even two full-power stations (WWTO and WJYS) that have only SD.
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post #2736 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dattier View Post

Do you have low-power stations there that broadcast in HD?* None of the -LD's or -CD's in the Chicago DMA do, and there are even two full-power stations (WWTO and WJYS) that have only SD.

No, that didn't come out right. The low-power station I watch features high school sports, since it is owned and run by the school system.
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post #2737 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

The major networks have already said they have nothing to sell. The stations that do sell will be low power stations that are stuggling.

LPTV stations won't be participating in the auction and aren't eligible to sell their spectrum. Since they are a secondary service, they'll get bumped without any sort of financial compensation.

Only full powered and class A stations can choose to participate in the auctions.
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post #2738 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 09:36 PM
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Bakersfield has 5 low power stations that broadcast in high definition. Our local FOX, Univision, and Telefutura stations are low power and HD. We have translators for KVPT PBS Fresno and KCET L.A. that are HD. We have 2 digital LPs that are SD only. We also have 7 analog LPs still polluting the air.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #2739 of 2861 Old 03-14-2012, 11:40 PM
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Hey Desert Hawk,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

Bakersfield has 5 low power stations that broadcast in high definition. Our local FOX, Univision, and Telefutura stations are low power and HD. We have translators for KVPT PBS Fresno and KCET L.A. that are HD. We have 2 digital LPs that are SD only. We also have 7 analog LPs still polluting the air.

Is KEBK-LP Bakersfield, channel 47, among the seven analog LPs you can receive? If so, could you please report what programming is being shown on it?

I ask because there is an LP digital station broadcasting in the New York City region which is WASA-LD Port Jervis, channel 25. That station broadcasts Estrella TV on its primary with ICN Chinese and ICN English on its -2 and -3, respectively. Once per hour a crawl runs along the top of the screen on the primary channel which says: "KEBK-LP Bakersfield" Before it was Estrella TV, it was a looping rotation of five infomercials.
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post #2740 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post

But that takes planning and thought. I tend to simply surf and land on this or that. A lot of the movies I end up watching I knew nothing about.

I still have This TV, Bounce TV, PBS, and Mynetwork TV OTA that shows movies. Recently I've watched these movies for the first time. Silverado, Fatal Attraction, 9 to 5, Delirious, numerous Richard Pryor movies, and several others. I wouldn't have watched these movies if they weren't on these free channels.

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post #2741 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

I still have This TV, Bounce TV, PBS, and Mynetwork TV OTA that shows movies. Recently I've watched these movies for the first time. Silverado, Fatal Attraction, 9 to 5, Delirious, numerous Richard Pryor movies, and several others. I wouldn't have watched these movies if they weren't on these free channels.

My Bloomington, IN OTA "movie stations" exactly. I don't watch a movie every day, but probably scan through each of these sub-channels every day, and on occasion find a free movie. Ads don't scare me away.
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post #2742 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 10:27 AM
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The ads don't bother me either. I stumbled into a great movie late one night on This TV when I was recovering from having my knee replaced. Ended up buying it off of Amazon and added it to my collection...

BTW, if anyone is interested, the movie was "The Miracle Mile". I also have MyNetwork TV in HD on a LD station and Bounce.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #2743 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

I also have MyNetwork TV in HD on a LD station and Bounce.

In what market area?  For location info you're telling us only "In the Groves."

We have MyNetworkTV in HD on a full-power station, This TV in SD on a subchannel of a full-power station whose .1 is in HD, and Bounce on a subchannel of a low-power station (or maybe it's a Class A).
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post #2744 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 11:13 AM
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KCSO-LD (virtual 33, RF 3) broadcasts Telemundo in HD on 33.1, ME TV on 33.2 in SD and country music videos on 33.3 in SD in the Sacramento market.

Chuck
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post #2745 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

No way in Hell will the American public tolerate another nonbackwardcompatable transition anytime this decade or the next!!! If the government starts any serious discussion of it I say we "Occupy the FCC" (a la Occupy Wall Street) and start up pirate stations!

What makes you think a successful revolution regarding OTA television could be held? A majority of the public doesn't get TV with an antenna now. All Occupy Wall Street has accomplished is teaching most of the public to ignore them.

If OTA survives there will be a second transition within the next two decades. Hopefully it won't be this decade because even if we started moving toward it today by the time it happens better compression than MPEG 4 will be close to being available making the second transition nearly obsolete.
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post #2746 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 03:51 PM
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Analog LP 47 in Bakersfield has been off the air most of the time for the last 3 years. Every once in awhile it will come on for a few days to a few weeks. Ditto LP 41, also owned by Venture Technologies. Both only show infomercials when they are actually on the air. I did not count either among the 7, since they are usually off the air. On the Bakersfield local thread I have listed everything available OTA in Bakersfield and I try to keep it updated.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #2747 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 04:00 PM
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The next transition darn well better not be just to MPEG4! The last transition gave us something revolutionarily (is that a word?) better than the analog system it replaced. The next system better give us more of an improvement than just the ability to put 2 1080i or 3 720p programs on 1 RF channel. It better give us at least a main channel of 4000p 3D UltraHD and 5 subchannels of 1080i 2D HD per RF channel! MPEG4 certainly won't allow that. A year ago someone posted an April Fool's joke of a new system being developed using polygon compression. Why should that be an April Fool's joke? If they could invent such a system for real then it could handle a payload of programs along the lines of what I said earlier. Polygon based graphics revolutionized video games. Using polygons instead of bitmapped rasters could do the same for tv. Any new nonbackwardcompatible system had better be a huge improvement over the old system. Let it all happen at once, not a series of transitions starting with MPEG4 then MPEG5, then MPEG6, etc. A nonbackwardcompatible transition is a huge undertaking for all concerned. We can't be bothered with doing it for small steps of progress such as 2 HD streams in one RF channel just so we can clear bandwidth for mobile broadband internet.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #2748 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

The next transition darn well better not be just to MPEG4! The last transition gave us something revolutionarily (is that a word?) better than the analog system it replaced. The next system better give us more of an improvement than just the ability to put 2 1080i or 3 720p programs on 1 RF channel. It better give us at least a main channel of 4000p 3D UltraHD and 5 subchannels of 1080i 2D SD per RF channel!

Honestly what is the point of that? If companies like Disney has an interest in providing all their channels via OTA then I can see a need for such a system. since that will never happen and likely in 15 years you'll have maybe 3 networks and PBS are left on OTA what's the point?
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post #2749 of 2861 Old 03-15-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

If companies like Disney has an interest in providing all their channels via OTA then I can see a need for such a system. since that will never happen and likely in 15 years you'll have maybe 3 networks and PBS are left on OTA what's the point?

You might be underestimating OTA in fifteen years but I agree that 4000p 3D UltraHD is unlikely. The next transition might use a hybrid standard. Each major market could get at least two high VHF SD only 6 MHz muxes that are compatible with current receivers but better with more advanced receivers. Assuming compression that is at least twice as efficient as MPEG 4 hopefully each major market will still be able to get at least three UHF 6 MHz muxes for HD, mobile, most subchannels, etc. While it might be difficult with the compatible VHF SD the UHF muxes could be designed for same frequency repeating. The smaller markets might end up with the frequency allocation leftovers but I'm not confident at all 210 television market areas will survive the next 15 years and suspect some smaller ones might combine with larger markets.
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post #2750 of 2861 Old 03-16-2012, 04:24 AM
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Ads don't scare me away as long as they are on free OTA TV. OTA lets me preview something then decide if I want to spend the money on the DVD.

Broadcast TV - a vital national public resource
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post #2751 of 2861 Old 03-16-2012, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

In what market area?* For location info you're telling us only "In the Groves."

We have MyNetworkTV in HD on a full-power station, This TV in SD on a subchannel of a full-power station whose .1 is in HD, and Bounce on a subchannel of a low-power station (or maybe it's a Class A).

I actually have 2 choices for Bounce. Both are on subs of two full power stations... One is a sub of full power KBTV (FOX) licensed to Port Arthur, Texas (my home DMA) and the other is on KPLC (NBC) licensed to Lake Charles, Louisiana which also carries This TV.

I also have two sources for MyNetwork TV in HD. It is carried on KUIL-LD licensed to Beaumont, Texas (also local DMA) and also on a translator in HD, on K36ID, in Orange County (both operated via a LMA with KBMT (ABC/NBC licensed to Beaumont) both of which I recieve equally well...

I live in the city of Groves, Texas which is a 'burb of Port Arthur ("We oil the world"). People around here just refer to it as "in the Groves". I am about 90+/- miles east of Houston where Texas and Louisiana meet the Gulf of Mexico. Great mix of Tex-Mex and Cajun food and great seafood. Sorry for any confusion...

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #2752 of 2861 Old 03-16-2012, 09:45 AM
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Thanks, OTAHead; just saying that it is the Port Arthur DMA did the job.
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post #2753 of 2861 Old 03-30-2012, 07:11 PM
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McAdams On: The Great American Flimflam

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OPACITY:Though it seems entirely contrary to all logic and reason, people sometimes ask me what I think of something. The current direction of spectrum policy, for example. I don't have much to say, other than it will have been the biggest fraud perpetrated upon the American people in modern times.

The wireless industry's successful campaign to wrest control of the spectrum with the full assistance of the federal government is not merely about broadcasting. TV stations are a footnote in the main event, which is the systematic manipulation of the free market through political influenceand it is breathtaking. When a substantial portion of the population cannot afford whatever national broadband plan the government proposes to inflict, it will fall upon everyone else to subsidize it in the form of a tax collected directly by the phone companies.

And it won't be minimal...

...Since spectrum is finite, we are told, I'm not sure how throwing more of it at a growing shortage will resolve the problem long term. No, that will be up to the Americans vicariously being taxed in the form of wireless subscription fees for use of their own airwaves to fund the development of more efficient wireless transmission standards.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...limflam/212681
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post #2754 of 2861 Old 03-31-2012, 08:20 AM
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Ms McAdams has written a BRILLIANT piece that really helps people like me, who aren't industry insiders, understand the folly of the auction and the so-called need for more spectrum for the wireless providers.
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post #2755 of 2861 Old 04-18-2012, 06:22 AM
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The right stuff:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/te...l?pagewanted=1
Engineers who work in digital communication and information theory will agree with this report. There's no spectrum crisis. The only crisis is the telcomms refusal to make the investments in small cells/smart beam-forming antennas and MIMO technologies--all available. Instead, the telecomms prefer to grab spectrum via the pay-for-play FCC
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post #2756 of 2861 Old 04-18-2012, 07:46 AM
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Utah had their "Great ShakeOut" Earthquake drill yesterday. One report we had (on 10:00 News) was that the National Guard had problems with their internet...."bandwidth issues", they said.
I wonder what would happen in a real emergency, especially if there was no radio or TV to help get the word out?

I also thought about...How is the (new) State EOC getting it's TV signals, which they are using to monitor the situation? When they were in their old EOC, they used analog cable TV. I wonder if they have OTA capabilities, both TV and Radio, now?
Hope they are not trying to stream us.

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post #2757 of 2861 Old 04-19-2012, 02:20 PM
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From TV Technology.com

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Broadcast TV Channel Sharing Moves Forward

By Doug Lung

The FCC will take another step in preparation for the incentive auction of UHF TV spectrum recently allowed by the Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2012. The Tentative Agenda for the FCC's April Open Meeting includes this item: "The Commission will consider a Report and Order establishing a regulatory framework for channel sharing among television licensees in connection with an incentive auction of spectrum."

The Report and Order will be based on the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking I describe in my December 2010 article Proposed FCC Rules Give Fixed and Mobile Services Co-primary Status in all TV Bands (http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...v-bands/207639 ). As I noted then, a significant part of the NPRM was devoted to making VHF spectrum more desirable. In addition to allowing stations to operate with more power at VHF, it would have also extended the all-channel receiver rules (the ones that mandate working UHF TV tuners) to require all indoor antennas to meet the ANSI/CEA-2032-A "Indoor TV Receiving Antenna Performance Standard."

Now that Congress has prohibited the FCC from involuntarily relocating TV stations from UHF to VHF channels, it will be interesting to see how many of the proposed rule changes for VHF TV survive. As I mentioned in my December 2010 article, the NPRM also contained confusing language regarding the impact stations sharing a channel could have on radio-astronomy use of Channel 37 and the interference to wireless operations adjacent to Channel 51. None of these made any technical sense to me because whether or not a station is sharing its 19.39 Mbps data stream has no impact whatsoever on its out-of-band emissions. Perhaps the Report and Order will have more details on this NPRM language.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...forward/212962

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post #2758 of 2861 Old 04-19-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

McAdams On: The Great American Flimflam
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...limflam/212681

Hard to read the truth of the matter.

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post #2759 of 2861 Old 04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTVintermods View Post

The right stuff:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/te...l?pagewanted=1
Engineers who work in digital communication and information theory will agree with this report. There's no spectrum crisis. The only crisis is the telcomms refusal to make the investments in small cells/smart beam-forming antennas and MIMO technologies--all available. Instead, the telecomms prefer to grab spectrum via the pay-for-play FCC

Quote:


Mr. Reed, who is now senior vice president at SAP Labs, a company that provides business software, explained that there are in fact newer technologies for transmitting and receiving signals so that they do not interfere with one another. That means separating the frequency bands would not be required — in other words, everybody could share spectrum and not run out.

The reason spectrum is treated as though it were finite is because it is still divided by frequencies — an outdated understanding of how radio technology works, he said. “I hate to even use the word ‘spectrum,’ ” he said. “It’s a 1920s understanding of how radio communications work.”

Bold statements here. Perhaps he is referring to the "twisting" technology I've heard about. Still, even if that can "solve" the spectrum problem and support unlimited signals on the same frequency, how long will it take to replace every radio device with this new technology? Don't ask me how overload can be prevented, even if such frequency sharing is possible.
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post #2760 of 2861 Old 04-20-2012, 07:07 PM
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From B&C:

Copps: A Whole Lot of Spectrum Lying Fallow

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...ing_Fallow.php

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Former FCC commissioner Michael Copps said that he thinks there is a lot of spectrum lying fallow.

"There is a lot of spectrum out there, and I don't think anybody in the United States has very much of a clue exactly how much spectrum is lying fallow," he said in an interview for The Communicators series on C-SPAN.

He was asked whether the FCC had been remiss in making sure spectrum was available.

"I'll bet you there is a whole bunch of [spectrum] lying fallow that could fuel a whole lot of devices and fuel a whole lot of technology," which he said was an argument for a complete spectrum inventory.

Copps said he hoped the commission would expedite incentive auctions, but he said he was not comfortable with taking spectrum from one consolidated medium (broadcasters) to give it to another (wireless). "That does not necessarily translate into automatic enhancement of the public interest," he said...

Wasn't there already a call by Congress for a complete spectrum inventory?

Looking at the spectrum analyzer, broadcasting certainly appears to make the best use of spectrum. 700MHz LTE (download side only) also appears to make good use of spectrum. Outside of that, there are often seems to be very little being used at any given time.
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