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post #1 of 128 Old 06-11-2011, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am hoping for 4k television to come out soon. Does anyone know when it will reach the consumers?
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post #2 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 05:25 AM
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I'll bite, what is a 4K television?
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post #3 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 05:31 AM
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???
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post #4 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 05:41 AM
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Frankly, I'm glad to see prices below 1K.

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post #5 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 06:11 AM
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There are lots of threads in various AVS sections discussing 4k format-resolution video, now in some movie theaters and limited private setups. The Google AVS search feature atop the page helps locate them. -- John
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post #6 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 06:14 AM
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"The final goal is for UHDTV to be available in domestic homes, though the timeframe for this happening varies between 2016 to 2020 (mainly based on technical reasons concerning storage and broadcast distribution of content)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_H...ion_Television
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post #7 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 06:52 AM
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Wow! Another place to pay more for TV.
Will they do infomercials in 4K?....Can't wait!

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"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
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post #8 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 06:57 AM
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Lots of people(even AVS members) can't seem to be able to tell the difference between HD and upconverted HD, personally I'll be happy when the majority of my programming actually matches my 1080p display
Of course in a professional environment something like 4k is nice.
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post #9 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by joed32 View Post

I'll bite, what is a 4K television?

A telly with about 4000 pixels across.
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post #10 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 11:21 AM
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Expect to see a higher resolution version of HDTV available for consumer use in 10-15 years.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #11 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

I am hoping for 4k television to come out soon. Does anyone know when it will reach the consumers?

Never. Broadcaster can't even handle a 1080p broadcast. And cable and satellite could only do 4k if they wanted to cut down the number of channels they offer by 3/4. Not to mention that content creators have just spent millions upgrading to HD they aren't spending millions more upgrading again anytime soon. Also no one is working on a successors to blu-ray so that tops out at 1080p so what's the point. Internet streaming can't handle 4K. Not for most people anyways so that's a no go. So really what is the point?
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post #12 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Never. Broadcaster can't even handle a 1080p broadcast.

The BBC broadcast 1080p25, and the superior 1080/50i in the same stream/channel.

Quote:


Internet streaming can't handle 4K

Youtube can, sort of - though I have to wait while it buffers their 4K (4096x2304) videos.

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So really what is the point?

3D without glasses is one reason.
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post #13 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post
Never.
Hard to be more wrong.

TV formats in excess of HD are already well in progress, and the only question is when. Here's a recent news item: http://sct.temple.edu/blogs/ispr/201...adcast-format/

For more, Google 'NHK' & 'UHDTV'.

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post #14 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 09:35 PM
 
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Hard to be more wrong.
Did you bother to read the OPs actual question? HUGE differnce between a TV that's only for show at conventions or for professional use only and a TV that is for the general public which is what the OP asked. Let me know when the major networks can broadcast in 4K. Stations aren't even bothering to upgrade to mpe-4g from mpeg-2. Let me know when cbale and satelite magically get more spectrum to have 100+ 4k channels.
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post #15 of 128 Old 06-12-2011, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
The BBC broadcast 1080p25, and the superior 1080/50i in the same stream/channel.
And UK TV channels are 8 MHz wide. That's 33% wider than US channels.

Quote:
Youtube can, sort of - though I have to wait while it buffers their 4K (4096x2304) videos.
Ok let me know when people on 1.5 Mbps DSL can watch that. Oh and people like me that that have speed that can handle that, are so looking forward to blowing through our monthly caps even faster.
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post #16 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post
Did you bother to read the OPs actual question?
Yes.
Quote:
HUGE differnce between a TV that's only for show at conventions or for professional use only and a TV that is for the general public which is what the OP asked.
Having worked in the professional, broadcast, and consumer video businesses for over 20 years, one could say I probably understand the difference, not to mention I've seen the UHDTV demos at NAB.
Quote:
Let me know when the major networks can broadcast in 4K. Stations aren't even bothering to upgrade to mpe-4g from mpeg-2. Let me know when cbale and satelite magically get more spectrum to have 100+ 4k channels.
Don't worry, you'll know. One thing I can tell you now is that you can expect incremental improvements to the existing HD system until the replacement comes. And it is coming.

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post #17 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 12:35 AM
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The American public will revolt if there is another DTV transition in 10-15 years!

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #18 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 12:55 AM
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The American public will revolt if there is another DTV transition in 10-15 years!
If the FCC has their way, DTV as we know it may not even exist by then!
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post #19 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 02:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post
Yes.
Having worked in the professional, broadcast, and consumer video businesses for over 20 years, one could say I probably understand the difference, not to mention I've seen the UHDTV demos at NAB.
Don't worry, you'll know. One thing I can tell you now is that you can expect incremental improvements to the existing HD system until the replacement comes. And it is coming.
Yes yes you're the "expert" therefore you know all and everyone else is ignorant. Whatever. I'll tell you what, if 4K TVs are more than 10% of the market by 2020 I'll personally ban myself from this site forever. Deal?

How's that 3-D thing working out? Not to well. My guess people will figure out 4K TV too. Watching 720p or 1080p on a 4K TV will be like watching 480i/p on a 1080p TV. Which is to say sucky. And the TONS of 480p content still out there well that will really look like crap on a 4K TV.

The fact is 1/4 of all households are still fiercely holding onto their old 4X3 SD tube TVs. Yet magically in 9 years 4K is going to be the norm? Many with HDTVs that have cable or satellite don't even subscribe to the HD tiers. Many of these same people are still watching DVDs. Hollywood isn't talking about killing off DVDs yet. Fact is 5 years since blu-ray was introduced it's only has 15% penetration. By comparison by the time DVD was 5 years old it had 35%. So I'm sure all these companies are just looking to spend BILLIONS developing "4K" players right now or in the near future.

I may not be an "expert" but I know that OTA, cable and satellite all have limited bandwidth and unless you want to change the laws of physics or something you're not having 4K channels unless you're getting rid of a lot of what you have now. I doubt too many people will be paying $150 a month for cable/satellite when they are only offering 30 channels even if they're all 4K.

Also you'd have to have a very large TV to even notice a difference between 1080p and "4K".

Ok maybe NEVER is a strong word. I'm sure in 2051 you might have your "4K" TVs. If TV in a form we recognize even exists then. At anyrate I really won't care by then.
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post #20 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

And UK TV channels are 8 MHz wide. That's 33% wider than US channels.

Yep - though to be fair we are getting around 40Mbs through one 8MHz channel for OTA HD broadcasts (aka Freeview HD) - compared to the 19.2Mbs in the US 6MHz system? (So double the data payload in one third more RF bandwith)

This 40Mbs is used to carry four H264 encoded (with HE-AAC audio) channels, which are statmuxed together (and there are also EPG, Digital Text, Audio description streams in the mux as well).

The BBC HD channel on Freeview HD has just introduced new encoder settings that dynamically switch between 1080p25 (aka 1080/25p) and 1080i25 (aka 1080/50i) - but this isn't on a show-by-show basis, and isn't controlled by the playout master control (as all BBC HD shows are broadcast from i25 (aka /50i) masters, but instead is based on the encoder detecting sequences within the i25 stream that were shot p25 and flipping to p25 encoding (to be more efficient)

The Beeb's move to hybrid progressive/interlaced encoding is presumably all about reducing bandwith without dropping quality to the same degree not increasing it... (There is a hope that they can squeeze a 5th HD service into the 40Mbs mux...)

The big advantage in the UK isn't the 8MHz channels, it's using a much more modern modulation system (DVB-T2 vs ATSC 8VSB) and a much more efficient encoding system (H264 vs MPEG2) The extra RF bandwith helps of course.

Sweden has also recently flipped their HD service from a small-scale single DVB-T service to a full DVB-T2 service on 2 muxes delivering 8 HD channels, though I think they use some 720p and 7MHz channel widths (including some VHF and I think using single-frequency-network techniques)?
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post #21 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 04:31 AM
 
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The big advantage in the UK isn't the 8MHz channels, it's using a much more modern modulation system (DVB-T2 vs ATSC 8VSB) and a much more efficient encoding system (H264 vs MPEG2).

I agree. And that's kind of the point with the way things work in the US you're not going to get broadcast stations to upgrade modulation or encoding. especially when the government is trying to kill OTA. US stations spent billions upgrading equipment for a government MANDATED switch to digital under the premise it would be better for everyone and here we are just 2 years later and the government is saying how OTA broadcasters suck and their spectrum needs to be taken away and given to at&t and Verizon. Not to mention the fact that ZERO tvs have tuners designed to receive DVB-TS or decode H264.

So unless the government mandates it TV makers aren't going to upgrade the tuners until stations actually broadcast with the new system and TV stations aren't going to broadcast a new system until there are enough TVs capable of getting the signal. Which means no new broadcast system.
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post #22 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Youtube can, sort of - though I have to wait while it buffers their 4K (4096x2304) videos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Ok let me know when people on 1.5 Mbps DSL can watch that.

They can today. They'll just have to wait a bit for the video to buffer/play, how long depends on whatever bitrate it's encoded at and the file size/video length.
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post #23 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

I agree. And that's kind of the point with the way things work in the US you're not going to get broadcast stations to upgrade modulation or encoding. especially when the government is trying to kill OTA. US stations spent billions upgrading equipment for a government MANDATED switch to digital under the premise it would be better for everyone and here we are just 2 years later and the government is saying how OTA broadcasters suck and their spectrum needs to be taken away and given to at&t and Verizon. Not to mention the fact that ZERO tvs have tuners designed to receive DVB-TS or decode H264.

So unless the government mandates it TV makers aren't going to upgrade the tuners until stations actually broadcast with the new system and TV stations aren't going to broadcast a new system until there are enough TVs capable of getting the signal. Which means no new broadcast system.

Yep - Europe has been in a very different situation. Some countries launched digital OTA much later, others launched digital OTA initially as an SD only service, and waited a lot longer before launching HD services. This allowed newer technology to be used for the HD stuff - though at the expense of having to simulcast HD and SD services (rather than just having a single service)

The norm in Europe is for digital OTA to be mainly an SD (usually 16:9) service - with some additional HD services. This has pushed OTA significantly as a platform as you get more SD services. Some countries have mainly gone down the additional digital services as being pay-TV (Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc.), others have gone for a mainly free approach (Germany, UK) Norway introduced digital TV quite late, and was able to ensure all their receivers were HD compatible - so are one of the few countries where HD and SD OTA services aren't simulcast.

In countries like Sweden, where the digital OTA platform has been heavily biased towards Pay-TV, the subscription channel operators have been able to change standards (originally only MPEG2 was used, then H264 introduced for SD services) as they have a totally different economic model. (You want to watch the new pay-TV channels - then you need to upgrade your CAM or receiver to one that includes H264 support) You can't render OTA free channels obsolete - but pay-TV channels have more latitude.

Of course the other major difference is that in most European countries broadcasters are networked and often don't operate their own transmitters - and instead transmission is co-ordinated across broadcasters (so all transmissions come from a single site, broadcasters are spread across multiple multiplexes etc.) - and decisions on transmission can be taken more easily on a pan-industry basis. Very different from a set-up where local stations have their own transmitters, and control the path from camera to transmitter entirely in-house.

This also means that managing, and developing technology can be more co-ordinated I guess? The countries that are heavily involved in developing this technology all have pretty decent in-house R&D developments in their national public service broadcasters as well - NHK in Japan, RAI in Italy and the BBC in the UK.
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post #24 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
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Is not like in EU the TV stations will develop any standards... The centralized aproach to broadcasting is more adequate to a socialist view of the media - it is far easyer to control a multicast point than 12 separate stations.
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post #25 of 128 Old 06-13-2011, 03:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

They can today. They'll just have to wait a bit for the video to buffer/play, how long depends on whatever bitrate it's encoded at and the file size/video length.

Oh joy. So those people on slow connection can wait an hour and a half for their their 4K movies from Netflix to buffer. Kind of takes the "instant" out of "INSTANT streaming" doesn't it?
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post #26 of 128 Old 06-14-2011, 01:27 AM
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Is not like in EU the TV stations will develop any standards...
The EU itself probably doesn't - but the DVB organisation is based in Europe, as is the EBU, both of whom actively develop standards with their member organisations. DVB was originally a European organisation - but is now global (as its standards are adopted nationwide) http://dvb.org/about_dvb/history/

A lot of standards bodies are based in Switerzland, which whilst in Europe is not an EU member (neither is Norway), the relationship between the EU and such standards bodies is complex.

A lot of research work for the DVB standards comes out of the BBC, RAI, SVT etc., as does a lot of work on international broadcast spectrum planning etc.
The BBC (and also the former IBA) has been key to developing a large number of global standards and broadcast technologies. (Teletext, DAB, RDS, Digital standards conversion, DVB-T2 modulation, digital audio distribution, Sound-in-Syncs, digital production, camera tracking technology, image analysis etc.)

I believe that US broadcasters had thriving R&D operations at one point (with CBS being key to developing the first decent colour TV cameras based on Plumbicons with Philips/Norelco), but I'm not sure they still do the same amount of blue sky stuff they once did.

Not going to get into discussions of centralised transmitter operations and distribution being easier for "control" and "socialist" - as I suspect they'll get into political areas, and there is no doubt that the word "socialist" really does have different meanings on each side of the pond (with echoes of communism and Eastern Europe to some ears)
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post #27 of 128 Old 06-14-2011, 02:18 AM
 
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... unless you want to change the laws of physics or something ...
I think it's more about developing more advanced compression algorithms. Why do you think they're working on HEVC?

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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post
Yet magically in 9 years 4K is going to be the norm?
If they'll figure a way to squeeze money from it, maybe

On the other hand, let's not forget 'bout what Cameron said:
Quote:
4K is a concept born in fear. When the studios were looking at converting to digital cinemas, they were afraid of change, and searched for reasons not to do it. One reason they hit upon was that if people were buying HD monitors for the home, with 1080x1920 resolution, and that was virtually the same as the 2K standard being proposed, then why would people go to the cinema? Which ignores the fact that the social situation is entirely different, and that the cinema screen is 100 times larger in area. So they somehow hit on 4K, which people should remember is not twice the amount of picture data, it is four times the data. Meaning servers need to be four times the capacity, as does the delivery pipe to the theater, etc.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...?refCatId=2868

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I'm sure in 2051 you might have your "4K" TVs.
Fortunately, Moore's law is (still) working
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post #28 of 128 Old 06-14-2011, 02:44 AM
 
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I think it's more about developing more advanced compression algorithms. Why do you think they're working on HEVC?

If they'll figure a way to squeeze money from it, maybe

On the other hand, let's not forget 'bout what Cameron said:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...?refCatId=2868

Fortunately, Moore's law is (still) working
Consumers don't care about moore's law. As I said how's that 3-D TV thing working out? Oh wait, it's not.
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post #29 of 128 Old 06-14-2011, 03:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post
Consumers don't care about moore's law.
Oh yes, they do. Translation: more at the same price.

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As I said how's that 3-D TV thing working out? Oh wait, it's not.
Why are you saying that? If you're trying to make a point, why don't you bring some figures from, let's say, 3D broadcasting of last World Cup? Maybe some others recent events? ...
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post #30 of 128 Old 06-14-2011, 05:27 AM
 
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Oh yes, they do. Translation: more at the same price.
Yes yes 50 inch 4K TVs for $800 in 2020. Ok.

Quote:
Why are you saying that? If you're trying to make a point, why don't you bring some figures from, let's say, 3D broadcasting of last World Cup? Maybe some others recent events? ...

Some of the new features for TV sets that have been heavily hyped by consumer electronics manufacturers, such as 3D and internet connectivity, are not proving to be major motivators of new TV set sales, according to a new study from DisplaySearch of set purchasing decisions in 14 markets around the world.


http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...f_TV_Sales.php
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