PS3 RGB Full Range: Full or Limited? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 7 Old 09-06-2011, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I use my PlayStation 3 as my primary gaming console as well as my Blu-ray player. There is a setting for the PS3 and my 46HX909 called "RGB Full Range (HDMI)" and when turned to "Full" the menu instantly seems more richer than when on "Limited". Yet, I am reading in various places that it is better to leave that setting on "Limited". I have my PS3 connected to a Sony 46HX909 and was wondering what do you guys know and which setting will supply the best picture quality for gaming and Blu-ray movie playback?
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post #2 of 7 Old 09-06-2011, 04:19 PM
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This question is a really common one and there are SEVERAL Avsforum threads on it, but basically it has to do with the color space. HD video is going to conform to REC709 color gamut which effectively sets the black point at a value of 16 and the white point at 235. PS calls this RGB Limited.

Your video game console though being more like a desktop computer can actually display the full RGB color gamut which sets black at 0 and white at 255 which is why the image appears more contrasty because (assuming your TV can do a full range RGB -- which most LCDs can) there is more information between the deepest blacks and whitest whites. The color gamut for RGB full shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_CIERGB.svg. The corners of the triangle are the primary colors, E is the white point.

For blu-ray use however this isn't the case. Rec709 is the HD video standard. 16 - 235 is all you're going to get regardless of what you try to set the PS to. If it seems that there is more contrast on a blu-ray, it's artificial as you are not actually resolving more detail, effectively meaning you're not going to see more information in the shadows or highlights of the image. Similar to what the 'dynamic picture mode' setting does on flat screen TVs. Artificially boosts contrast. Compare the above chart with a REC709 chart and notice the differences in how much color gets resolved and where the primaries land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIExy1931_sRGB.svg.

So for gaming you can leave it in FULL mode and it won't really matter for Blu-Ray use, being that Blu-Ray is always going to be less than full RGB. Obviously it also depends on whether or not the content of the game on the PS3 can accommodate full RGB as well, the game itself might be Rec709 standards, meaning the only rich contrast and saturation will be the menus on the PS3.
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post #3 of 7 Old 09-06-2011, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCTV99 View Post

This question is a really common one and there are SEVERAL Avsforum threads on it, but basically it has to do with the color space. HD video is going to conform to REC709 color gamut which effectively sets the black point at a value of 16 and the white point at 235. PS calls this RGB Limited.

Your video game console though being more like a desktop computer can actually display the full RGB color gamut which sets black at 0 and white at 255 which is why the image appears more contrasty because (assuming your TV can do a full range RGB -- which most LCDs can) there is more information between the deepest blacks and whitest whites. The color gamut for RGB full shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_CIERGB.svg. The corners of the triangle are the primary colors, E is the white point.

For blu-ray use however this isn't the case. Rec709 is the HD video standard. 16 - 235 is all you're going to get regardless of what you try to set the PS to. If it seems that there is more contrast on a blu-ray, it's artificial as you are not actually resolving more detail, effectively meaning you're not going to see more information in the shadows or highlights of the image. Similar to what the 'dynamic picture mode' setting does on flat screen TVs. Artificially boosts contrast. Compare the above chart with a REC709 chart and notice the differences in how much color gets resolved and where the primaries land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIExy1931_sRGB.svg.

So for gaming you can leave it in FULL mode and it won't really matter for Blu-Ray use, being that Blu-Ray is always going to be less than full RGB. Obviously it also depends on whether or not the content of the game on the PS3 can accommodate full RGB as well, the game itself might be Rec709 standards, meaning the only rich contrast and saturation will be the menus on the PS3.

Thank you SO much ABCTV99 for explaining this to me! Now if I could only find the perfect settings for my new 46HX909. Right now it looks great, but I know it can look better!
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post #4 of 7 Old 09-06-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick212004 View Post

Now if I could only find the perfect settings for my new 46HX909. Right now it looks great, but I know it can look better!

A test BR like this is a excellent(albeit somewhat complicated) tool to help you calibrate your display. A far less detailed method I like to use in a hurry is the THX calibration patterns on select older Disney/Pixar DVDs(may be on newer ones but I just don't know). I use the patterns on my copy of Monsters Inc. although I'm not sure if the current versions have the THX patterns. Many people with kids seem to have M.I. which is why I mention it.
With test patterns you will be able to see what settings do that you might not notice right away just watching a program.

ABCTV99, is RGB range like IRE black level settings? I know the rest of the world uses a lower level for SD black level(0 IRE) than the US(+7.5 IRE) but US HD is 0 for the base value like the rest of the world. The RGB setting sounds similar with different ranges.
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post #5 of 7 Old 09-06-2011, 06:24 PM
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I believe in 8-bit REC709 0IRE corresponds to 16 reference black because actual 0-15 is used for sync and undershoot. Similarly 100IRE would correspond to 235 (with 236-255 being overshoot and possibly specular highlights), but that material in both the extreme highs and lows would most likely not actually be represented in actual picture material. Maybe John Mason or someone could chime in to verify this.

As far as NTSC goes it depends whether you are talking about Rec601 digital or analog. In analog NTSC (USA only not Japan) color black is 7.5IRE with "Super Black" being 0, but in digital REC601 Standard Definition, the values are still 16 - 235. This however causes ALL KINDS of production issues when converting from standard definition analog to digital as many cheaper digital formats like MiniDV incorrectly will read value 16 as 0IRE instead of offsetting it to 7.5IRE.

It begins to get really complicated when you're dealing with material shot on film and scanned in LOG space and then converting it to REC709, REC601, Digital Cinema (DCIP3) spec (or just working with it on a computer in RGB space, or trying to properly display it in a DI facility) correctly can get really complex quickly to figure out.
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post #6 of 7 Old 08-22-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCTV99 View Post

This question is a really common one and there are SEVERAL Avsforum threads on it, but basically it has to do with the color space. HD video is going to conform to REC709 color gamut which effectively sets the black point at a value of 16 and the white point at 235. PS calls this RGB Limited.


Your video game console though being more like a desktop computer can actually display the full RGB color gamut which sets black at 0 and white at 255 which is why the image appears more contrasty because (assuming your TV can do a full range RGB -- which most LCDs can) there is more information between the deepest blacks and whitest whites. The color gamut for RGB full shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_CIERGB.svg. The corners of the triangle are the primary colors, E is the white point.


For blu-ray use however this isn't the case. Rec709 is the HD video standard. 16 - 235 is all you're going to get regardless of what you try to set the PS to. If it seems that there is more contrast on a blu-ray, it's artificial as you are not actually resolving more detail, effectively meaning you're not going to see more information in the shadows or highlights of the image. Similar to what the 'dynamic picture mode' setting does on flat screen TVs. Artificially boosts contrast. Compare the above chart with a REC709 chart and notice the differences in how much color gets resolved and where the primaries land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIExy1931_sRGB.svg.


So for gaming you can leave it in FULL mode and it won't really matter for Blu-Ray use, being that Blu-Ray is always going to be less than full RGB. Obviously it also depends on whether or not the content of the game on the PS3 can accommodate full RGB as well, the game itself might be Rec709 standards, meaning the only rich contrast and saturation will be the menus on the PS3.
I have confirmed that my Samsung LCD LN32A330 model can output RGB Full. But I'm still wondering about Blu-Ray playback. Should I set playback to Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr or RGB or Auto? Finally, since my television supports RGB Full on PS3, does the same principle apply to Xbox 360 as well? I believe it has reference levels are Standard, Intermediate, and Expanded.
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post #7 of 7 Old 08-23-2012, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicBoot2daFace View Post

I have confirmed that my Samsung LCD LN32A330 model can output RGB Full. But I'm still wondering about Blu-Ray playback. Should I set playback to Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr or RGB or Auto? Finally, since my television supports RGB Full on PS3, does the same principle apply to Xbox 360 as well? I believe it has reference levels are Standard, Intermediate, and Expanded.

Excellent questions.... wish someone would answer them!
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