Chattanooga TN: Got Atlanta But Few Locals - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:57 PM
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Nothing seems to make WTVC, WDEF, or WRCB decode on the balcony, despite tons and tons of signal. Fought with those for a while.

Since they are all VHF, that supports the noise theory and the cable leakage theory.

I don't have enough information to make anything other than wild guesses. Maybe after you catch up on your sleep you can make some tests that will tell us more.

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Old 11-19-2011, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I got my grounding block, installed it, then realized I have no wire with which to hook it to ground. Oops. I'll have to acquire some.

- Trip

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Old 11-19-2011, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Well, I got my grounding block, installed it, then realized I have no wire with which to hook it to ground. Oops. I'll have to acquire some.

- Trip

Yeah, that is a crucial part. You need 3 things for it to work: grounding block, something to ground into and, uh, what's the third one? Oh, I don't remember, uh, oops?

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Old 11-20-2011, 01:16 PM
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I'm very impressed with the performance of your Digitenna, especially with the Tropo signals. At least you have some of your favorite shows to watch when you need a break.

If you have a coax wall plate in your apartment, I wonder if there are any cable signals present.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought an FM trap at Radio Shack this evening and put it in the line (in place of my grounding block, since I have yet to get wire). I think the noise floor on channels 7 and 11 (the only channels that were vacant) has been knocked down quite a bit, which should make VHF reception easier overall, but it made no difference with regard to decoding anything I didn't previously receive.

- Trip

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Old 11-21-2011, 05:10 PM
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Hi Trip,

I came to this discussion late.

I wanted to make a point about RF grounds. Everything I've read says to get a RF ground the length of wire from what you want to ground to the actual Earth ground needs to be less than 1/4 wavelength. For all practical purposes, that's impossible at VHF, let alone UHF. A 1/4 wave piece of wire connected to an Earth ground with a gamma match makes a good antenna. You can see why the wire needs to be short. Grounding for lightning (DC) is another story.

You know I've battled multipath here and I've never been able to see any particular signature of multipath on the spectrum analyzer trace. I've seen some pretty ugly traces decode just fine and perfectly good ones not decode.

It's pretty hard to generate much noise on UHF from consumer equipment. If you're receiving distant stations okay but not a few close one, it's unlikely to be an RFI problem.

Your tests sure sound like it is multipath.

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Old 11-21-2011, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Hi Trip,

Your tests sure sound like it is multipath.

Chuck

What is even worse is dynamic multipath. No equalizer can handle that. Perhaps the cars wizzing past you on the nearby 24 freeway is the cause of your reception problems. You did mention that you decoded a station overnight. That is when the traffic is lightest.

According to your TVFool results, the 3 stations you can't decode are located at about 345 deg. and that direction has a freeway that is perpendicular to your LOS and is about a mile or two away.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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The stations I decoded overnight were Atlanta stations, not the missing Chattanooga stations.

I hooked up my Sony FM receiver last night and have no issues with any of the local FM signals, plus I get several of the Atlanta signals.

- Trip

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Old 11-22-2011, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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This morning, I decoded WATL right over WPDP-CA analog, got a call sign out of WPCH, and managed to decode WGNM-45 Macon (not well enough to collect data for RabbitEars though).

- Trip

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Old 11-22-2011, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

According to your TVFool results, the 3 stations you can't decode are located at about 345 deg. and that direction has a freeway that is perpendicular to your LOS and is about a mile or two away.

I actually can't decode 8 stations, including one that is at 215° (WELF). Despite what TVFool says, it's stronger than the UHFs to the north (on par with the VHFs though) but also fails to decode.

- Trip

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Old 11-22-2011, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I bought an FM trap at Radio Shack this evening and put it in the line. . .

- Trip

I'm wondering if a full band FM trap like an HLSJ will help? The Radio Shack model only has 6db of attenuation at 88 Mhz, near where your local blow torch @ 88.9 resides.
LL
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Hi Trip,

Your tests sure sound like it is multipath.

Chuck

To verify or disprove my theory that dynamic multipath is causing your reception problems, can you tune in analog stations WOOT RF6 or WYHB RF39 and see if you have ghosting that always seems to fluctuate? If so, it's the nearby freeway. I don't think any antenna (I saw your request on another sub-forum) will help since all your signals are coming from the top of the ridge via diffraction.
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Neither one is on the air.

What I'm wondering is if I'm getting a reflection off the mountains in the distance. If so, maybe I can cut down the main signal enough to make the reflections work, if it is multipath. Or cut down the reflections. I'm not sure how directional the Digitenna actually is.

- Trip
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Hi Trip,

Your tests sure sound like it is multipath.

Chuck

Is it possible to do a single scan on your spectrum analyzer and to store the result? Do this on an undecodable station a number of times and then compare each result. See if the amplitude across the 6 mHz band changes with each scan. That would indicate dynamic multipath.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

Is it possible to do a single scan on your spectrum analyzer and to store the result? Do this on an undecodable station a number of times and then compare each result. See if the amplitude across the 6 mHz band changes with each scan. That would indicate dynamic multipath.

Yes, I can do that. I will give it a try when I get a chance.

I'm also considering trying one of these interesting options:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/We...20page%202.htm

And finally, here's the announcement about why I'm in Chattanooga: http://www.rabbitears.info/blog/inde...g-Announcement

- Trip

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Old 11-28-2011, 07:12 PM
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Now, that is a barrel splice!
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

On the DUV-XF, I can look at the analyzer and see WSB-39 next to WDSI-40 and see WDSI is about 10 dB stronger (HDHR: 100% strength 0% quality) but fails to decode while WSB is fine (HDHR: 90% strength 75% quality).

You can have all the signal strength in the world, but you need "symbol" quality. Use the HDHomerun's Config utility to tune your antenna.


Quote:


I don't mind having a separate aim for Atlanta versus Chattanooga, I just don't want one aim for Atlanta and eight for Chattanooga.

You are just way too close to the towers for that very directional antenna you have. You will need something a bit less directional for the Chattanooga stations, but will need a large directional antenna for the Atlanta stations. Your best bet is two antennas with a combiner.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I had the UHF section of one tuner die on one of my HDHomeRuns before and had to ship it back under warranty, but this is every tuner I've tried (HDHR both tuners, Aero-M, Pinnacle 800i, WinTV-D), every coax I've tried, and every antenna I've tried (DUV-XF, DUV Vii, Silver Sensor, VHF bowtie, paperclip); all seem to have the same issue.

That doesn't sound good... sounds like you have an amplifier that is burning out those tuners.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:30 AM
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The rev2 HDHomeRun (white, device IDs starting with 1013 and above) is probably the best tuner around for handling high signal strength. Also doesn't seem to be bothered by strong FM signals. Not particularly great at handling multipath though.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

That doesn't sound good... sounds like you have an amplifier that is burning out those tuners.

"Burning out" implies that it's making them never function again. But my tuners all work fine in other locations, so I'm not destroying them. Even my strongest signal here, WNGH, is 15 dB lower than signals I've used fine with these tuners in other locations.

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You are just way too close to the towers for that very directional antenna you have. You will need something a bit less directional for the Chattanooga stations, but will need a large directional antenna for the Atlanta stations. Your best bet is two antennas with a combiner.

Both of those suggestions would make existing multipath problems significantly worse, I would think. Directional antennas are designed to reject multipath, while an omni-directional one would pull in all the reflections at their original strengths. And two antennas with a combiner, unless the coax is exactly the same length, I would expect such a configuration to create multipath due to the slight difference in the amount of time it would take the signal to get from the antenna to the combiner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

The rev2 HDHomeRun (white, device IDs starting with 1013 and above) is probably the best tuner around for handling high signal strength. Also doesn't seem to be bothered by strong FM signals. Not particularly great at handling multipath though.

Do you happen to know how much better the HDHR3 is? I mean, I wouldn't expect it to help this situation if even my Aero-M won't do the trick, but I'm curious.

- Trip

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Old 11-30-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post


Both of those suggestions would make existing multipath problems significantly worse, I would think. Directional antennas are designed to reject multipath, while an omni-directional one would pull in all the reflections at their original strengths.

- Trip

Using a highly directional antenna would reject off-boresight multipath but in my case that wasn't true for me. I get my TV signals as one-edge diffractions from a nearby ridge, so I tried using a CM4228 antenna hoping to get good reception on all the local stations but I couldn't. Replaced the 8-bay antenna with a 4-bay antenna (CM4221) and to my surprise, I got great reception on every station. According to Ken Nist, if the multipath signals from different directions all arrive approximately in-phase than they add giving you a much stronger signal. At my geographical location, I think that is what happened.
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Old 11-30-2011, 06:27 PM
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Congrats on the new gig, Trip. I've had dealings with both Henry Luken and Cliff Goodgame and they seem like good people. Last time I was at the building on 8th St they were just getting the dishes installed on the roof, and things were progressing nicely.
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Do you happen to know how much better the HDHR3 is? I mean, I wouldn't expect it to help this situation if even my Aero-M won't do the trick, but I'm curious.

A little better on the multipath, but not all that much since it's just a newer rev of the same demod. Really strong signal handling isn't quite as good because of the powered splitter. Adjacent channel filtering seems to be better, probably from the switch from cans to silicon tuners.
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maharg18 View Post

Congrats on the new gig, Trip. I've had dealings with both Henry Luken and Cliff Goodgame and they seem like good people. Last time I was at the building on 8th St they were just getting the dishes installed on the roof, and things were progressing nicely.

Thanks. The dishes are fully installed now, and work on the lower floors is moving right along.

coyoteaz: Thanks. So probably not worth an upgrade. If I buy another HDHR, I'll make it the 2 since I like the separate antenna jacks.

For anyone curious, here's a picture of my antenna, aimed to receive WAGA Atlanta. https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...61119630_n.jpg

Also, the atmosphere was being helpful last night, as I decoded WPCH, WPBA, WHSG, WKTB-CD, WJSP, WRBL, and WEMT.

- Trip

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Old 12-01-2011, 07:01 PM
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Is that Digitenna the largest fringe version they make? I am looking to order one myself when I can locate a suitable vendor online. They appear to be a bit pricey but that large Duv element looks similar to the old Channel Master diamond elements that provided good distant UHF reception. For some reason, I don't think Solid Signal carries Digitenna, so will look for another vendor.
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe it is, yes.

- Trip

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Old 12-02-2011, 06:53 PM
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If you go with the Georgia Tech option, you might want to try something smaller. If defeating multipath or noise is the key, the antenna inside of the blind may not need to be full size for adequate reception. How big would the antenna need to be? I don't know. I'll guess bigger than a paper clip but smaller than your vhf bowtie. The smaller the antenna, the smaller the blind. A smaller blind "sees" fewer degrees for reception. I've been tempted to buy the Leaf antenna to try this indoors here.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I've just confirmed my Chattanooga TV issues are being caused by multipath. I've got my Sony XDR-S3HD hooked to the outdoor TV antenna and the big Signal Mountain FMs, like WDEF, WDOD, and WSKZ, are getting eaten by multipath. I can hear it.

- Trip

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Old 12-07-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I think I've just confirmed my Chattanooga TV issues are being caused by multipath. I've got my Sony XDR-S3HD hooked to the outdoor TV antenna and the big Signal Mountain FMs, like WDEF, WDOD, and WSKZ, are getting eaten by multipath. I can hear it.

- Trip

You might try rotating your antenna to vertical to see if the multipath signals are polarization sensitive.

There is a blog at:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=14434

that suggest rotating your antenna might reduce multipath interference. WRCB and WTVC are transmitting vertical polarization as well as horizontal polarization.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Success!

I bought a metal trash can from ACE Hardware on my way home this evening and in my bedroom, I stuck my Silver Sensor inside it aimed in the direction of the transmitters. Voilá, 100% signal quality on WFLI, high 80's on WDSI, WTCI and WYHB-LD. The Silver Sensor is too small for the VHFs but it's a start!

- Trip
LL
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