1080i - WHY is that native for most if not all "HDTV channels"? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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That isn't even HD, yet for example you put Cablevision HD boxes to "passthrough" and 99.9 percent of the channels go to 1080i.

Now I have FIOS but haven't noticed any passthrough settings for FIOS boxes
but it allows me to pick 720P/1080i and their info says "MOST HDTVs need to pick 1080i"? WHY would they put that there? when clearly 720P is real HD
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post #2 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 03:48 PM
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1080i is hd... i'm not sure where you are getting your information from...

when using a fixed res from a cable box, it is generally better to select 1080i, as it is "easier" to scale/interlace than it is to deinterlace, and ime, stbs scale better than they deinterlace...

if you have had the new fios interface pushed out to you, you can pass native... you need to go into the internal menu to set it however...

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post #3 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 04:01 PM
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Ohhh boy....

Quote:


That isn't even HD

1080i IS HD, as is 720p and 1080p.

Quote:


yet for example you put Cablevision HD boxes to "passthrough" and 99.9 percent of the channels go to 1080i.

Because 99.9% of channels broadcast in 1080i.

Quote:


but it allows me to pick 720P/1080i and their info says "MOST HDTVs need to pick 1080i"?

You would want to pick 1080i, as that will send a 1080i signal to your tv at all times. If you select 720p, ALL channels will be sent as 720p, so for all of the 1080i channels, you will be losing over half of the resolution.

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WHY would they put that there?

This setting is only for older tv's, and smaller sub-32" models that only accept 720p.


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when clearly 720P is real HD

Again, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are ALL HD. Not sure which Best Buy employee told you otherwise....
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post #4 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitlet View Post

720p, 1080i, and 1080p are all hd. not sure which best buy employee told you otherwise....

lol
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post #5 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 04:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitlet View Post

Again, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are ALL HD. Not sure which Best Buy employee told you otherwise....

Probably the same one that sold him $300 HMDI cables. You know the ones with the gold plating so the 1's and 0's travel better to the TV?
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post #6 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gslide View Post

That isn't even HD, yet for example you put Cablevision HD boxes to "passthrough" and 99.9 percent of the channels go to 1080i.

Now I have FIOS but haven't noticed any passthrough settings for FIOS boxes
but it allows me to pick 720P/1080i and their info says "MOST HDTVs need to pick 1080i"? WHY would they put that there? when clearly 720P is real HD


Err - 1080i is HD, and is the chosen HD format for probably the majority of HD broadcasters globally.

The original developers of HD in Japan developed the first real HD system, which evolved into 1080i, so it is really a descendant of the longest-existing HD standard (which started to be developed in the 70s and was in significant testing by the 80s, and on-air in Japan by the very early 90s) Until relatively recently, one of the largest suppliers of HDTV production equipment didn't offer 720p capabilities on many of their products because the 1080i market was so dominant.

In the UK - all of our broadcast HDTV is 1080i, we don't have any 720p HD broadcasters. Similarly at least one European broadcaster trialled 720p but switched to 1080i for their full service after pressure from viewers of the trials (The Netherlands for instance)
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post #7 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitlet View Post

Ohhh boy....
...........

Again, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are ALL HD. Not sure which Best Buy employee told you otherwise....

he is the BB employee!
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post #8 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 05:53 PM
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I wish most of my channels were 1080i, half are not(more if you count SD subs). For my OTA channels I receive(not including LPs):
480i-13
720p-5
1080i-4
Other than FOX or ABC the majority of what I watch is 1080i which is nice, although if they start compressing(adding more subs) to the 1080i channels I may rethink my fondness for 1080i
I understand pay TV may be different though.
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post #9 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie1617 View Post

he is the BB employee!

can't be... every bb employee "knows" that REAL hd is 1080p, and that 720p isn't REAL hd...

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post #10 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I wish most of my channels were 1080i, half are not(more if you count SD subs). For my OTA channels I receive(not including LPs):
480i-13
720p-5
1080i-4
Other than FOX or ABC the majority of what I watch is 1080i which is nice. I understand pay TV may be different though.

well, 480i isn't hd, so that's not really germane...

on pay tv, the majority of the hd channels are 1080i, at least in the united states...

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post #11 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

can't be... every bb employee "knows" that REAL hd is 1080p, and that 720p isn't REAL hd...

You mean just how they all "know" that there is absolutely no way a person can get HD without Comcast or DirecTV?
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post #12 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 07:46 PM
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^^^

lol... yea, that too...

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post #13 of 73 Old 01-11-2012, 08:21 PM
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Read an article about interlacing once. Don't know what happened to it but I think I recall the gist of it.

Historically, we never really had to put up with interlaced signals except for one niggling detail: Bandwidth. Interlacing was developed as a method to achieve 640x480 while still putting through only half the amount of data, making it possible to receive over the air signals with more channels. With a T.V. you want a variety of entertainment options since no two people have the same taste and this is a primary concern over image quality and television is primarily meant to get the point across and entertain.

Most C.R.T. Monitors from even before the uprise of high definition televisions are capable of displaying a progressive scan R.G.B. signal and high resolutions. This is because they were designed to be connected directly to the sole source of video data with multiple wires and as such had rather liberal bandwidth limitations. Image quality with a computer can be and hence is given more priority since it makes all of that reading and doing the work easier.

With advances in technology, I would imagine we've figured out ways to work around the bandwidth problem but we've also got a lot more data to send through as well. More channels at higher resolutions. Out of all the H.D. signals that could be sent over the air, 1080i might make a fair bit of sense because it provides a picture that appears to be equal in size with a 1080p picture and while using the least number of lines of any H.D. format at 540, which is twice as many as is sent over an S.D. signal which is to say nothing of the fact that they're wider as well. I'm not precisely sure how companies pay to reserve airspace but it might just be the cheapest option at this point.
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post


Probably the same one that sold him $300 HMDI cables. You know the ones with the gold plating so the 1's and 0's travel better to the TV?

I heard a best buy guy going on that little rant to some customer and I wanted so badly to tell him off and explain to the customer why it doesn't matter that they have gold on the ends.
But I kept my mouth shut and good thing cause I soon got my own share of the 25 foot 250 dollar monster cable rant.
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post #15 of 73 Old 01-12-2012, 01:15 PM
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just posting to be subscribed. very intrigued to see if the OP comes back

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post #16 of 73 Old 01-13-2012, 10:36 AM
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just posting to be subscribed. very intrigued to see if the OP comes back


He won't.
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post #17 of 73 Old 01-15-2012, 04:56 PM
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I have posted a question concerning how to set my cable box to output both 720p and 1080i when that is what is being broadcast. My impression, contrary to what I have read in this posting, is that on Fox and ABC, 720p is superior to 1080i for sporting events, since the signal is being broadcast at 60 frames/sec v 30 with the 1080i signal-hence, that is why I want to find out how to set my cable box to output both resolutions to the tv.
Am I incorrect-actually, watching the playoff game today on Fox, it appeared to have more depth and slightly sharper when I set the box to 720 v 1080.
Maybe I am just seeing things.
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post #18 of 73 Old 01-15-2012, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmunster2 View Post

I have posted a question concerning how to set my cable box to output both 720p and 1080i when that is what is being broadcast. My impression, contrary to what I have read in this posting, is that on Fox and ABC, 720p is superior to 1080i for sporting events, since the signal is being broadcast at 60 frames/sec v 30 with the 1080i signal-hence, that is why I want to find out how to set my cable box to output both resolutions to the tv.
Am I incorrect-actually, watching the playoff game today on Fox, it appeared to have more depth and slightly sharper when I set the box to 720 v 1080.
Maybe I am just seeing things.

My cable box outputs to whatever the source is and it's on old Motorolla DCH6200
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post #20 of 73 Old 01-16-2012, 07:31 AM
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My impression, contrary to what I have read in this posting, is that on Fox and ABC, 720p is superior to 1080i for sporting events, since the signal is being broadcast at 60 frames/sec v 30 with the 1080i signal-hence,

Not necessarily. Back when HDTV was first starting to become popular, 720p was superior to 1080i for sports. But now, cameras and transmission technology have made 1080i look the same if not better than 720p. Yes, 720p does give you double the framerate, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a "better" picture.

Quote:
that is why I want to find out how to set my cable box to output both resolutions to the tv.

We would need to know what kind of cable box you have to help you out. But normally, you turn the cable box off, press the menu button on the box itself, and there should be a page to let you select resolutions. If you want the native resolution sent to your tv, select 480p, 720p, and 1080i. If you just want 1080i to be sent all the time, only select 1080i.

Quote:
watching the playoff game today on Fox, it appeared to have more depth and slightly sharper when I set the box to 720 v 1080.

That all depends on how the cable box scales the picture, and how your tv scales the picture. I have one older tv that works much better with the cable box set to output only 1080i. And I have a newer tv that looks much better when the cable box outputs both 720p and 1080i.
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post #21 of 73 Old 01-16-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitlet View Post

Not necessarily. Back when HDTV was first starting to become popular, 720p was superior to 1080i for sports. But now, cameras and transmission technology have made 1080i look the same if not better than 720p. Yes, 720p does give you double the framerate, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a "better" picture.

Another change over the years has been the advanced deinterlacing in customer televisions. My older HDTV just does cheap "bob" deinterlacing which causes lots of artifacts especially in scenes with lots of contrast. My newer HDTV has a deinterlacing chip that compares the four previous frames to detect which parts of the picture need to be deinterlaced (i.e. the motion) so it will leave the rest of the picture alone. The amount of processing power needed to do this wasn't cheap in the early days (they barely had enough power to display HDTV) but now it is. Even $500 1080p displays now look better than my old $4,000 one.

720p was intended to solve a problem that no longer exists much any more. There are still some cases where it will display a better picture (slow pans can be less blurry for example) but they aren't very common.

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post #22 of 73 Old 01-16-2012, 11:12 AM
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IMO, OTA 720p looks better than 1080i, if the station is multicasting subchannels. At least on local channels I receive. YMMV
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post #23 of 73 Old 01-17-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

IMO, OTA 720p looks better than 1080i, if the station is multicasting subchannels. At least on local channels I receive. YMMV

That's because 1080i is higher resolution and requires more bandwidth.

Likewise if the station added even more subchannels, 480p would begin to look better than 720p.

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post #24 of 73 Old 01-17-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

That's because 1080i is higher resolution and requires more bandwidth.

Likewise if the station added even more subchannels, 480p would begin to look better than 720p.

This is incorrect. Broadcasters use 1080i because it takes less bandwith to transport that signal over a 6MHz channel.
You are only sending one field at a time down the pipe so you are actually sending 1920x540.

Even with video captured at 1080p30 will be interlaced for transmission because of the bandwith limitations of the 6 MHz channel. This method is called progressively segmented frames, were they seperate a full frame into odd and even fields for transmision.

Remember your eye can only resolve so much detail every second and it is pixel elements per second which makes up that moving picture. Believe it or not but 1080p24 has less picture detail per second than 720p60.

1920x1080x24=49766400 pixels per second
1280x720x60=55296000 pixels per second
1920x1080x30=62208000 pixels per second
1920x1080x60=124416000 pixels per second
Note: These are frames per second. 1920x1080ix60 fields/sec is the same as 1920x1080p30 frames/sec.

Also progressive images respond a lot more favorabley to MPEG compression than interlaced images especially when it involves a lot of movement. Progressive images produce a smoother image than interlaced images.

Remember you are looking at moving pictures and not still pictures so the human eye can only resolve so much picture detail every second.

Here is some old articles related to this:
http://www.tech-notes.tv/Jim/Articles/24vs48sF.html
http://www.tech-notes.tv/Jim/Articles/24_Frame.html
http://www.tech-notes.tv/Jim/homepage.html

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post #25 of 73 Old 01-17-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

This is incorrect. Broadcasters use 1080i because it takes less bandwith to transport that signal over a 6MHz channel.

Less bandwidth than what?
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post #26 of 73 Old 01-17-2012, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

This is incorrect. Broadcasters use 1080i because it takes less bandwith to transport that signal over a 6MHz channel.

No, you are incorrect. Your own numbers contradict you.

Quote:


1280x720x60=55296000 pixels per second
1920x1080x30=62208000 pixels per second

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post #27 of 73 Old 01-18-2012, 01:06 AM
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I have to admit, I don't stop by the technical section that often. When I do, I find you're still arguing about "720p vs. 1080i". It's like a time machine brought me back to 2002.

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post #28 of 73 Old 01-18-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

I have to admit, I don't stop by the technical section that often. When I do, I find you're still arguing about "720p vs. 1080i". It's like a time machine brought me back to 2002.

The issue has gained new momentum as people are buying HD camcorders which record in both formats and are asking "experts" whether they should shoot 720p or 1080i. There is always a "proscanner" on every board who is still insists that all interlaced formats are obsolete and no one should use them in this day and age. There are also the Europeans who ask "What is 720p?"

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post #29 of 73 Old 01-18-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

This is incorrect. Broadcasters use 1080i because it takes less bandwith to transport that signal over a 6MHz channel.

This is completely incorrect. 1080i uses approximately 12% more bandwidth than 720p.

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post #30 of 73 Old 01-19-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

There are also the Europeans who ask "What is 720p?"

Unless they are from Sweden, Norway, Germany or Italy... (SVT, NRK, ARD/ZDF and Sky Italia all use 720/50p for broadcast ISTR - though NRK are 1080i internally and cross-convert in a Snell converter for TX, whilst most people shoot drama 1080p even if they are broadcasting 720p)
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