Chattanooga: Trouble getting OTA Signal - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 06-18-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I live in a downtown area that is 8 miles from the broadcasting tower according to TV fool. I have tried to use a GE amplified indoor antenna (20db) from Target, but it is not enough to receive any channels except one that is pretty spotty. My line of sight is obstructed by an adjacent building and an outside antenna isn't an option. Can you guys recommend what I need to try next?

Thanks
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post #2 of 32 Old 06-18-2012, 08:42 PM
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have you tried to move the antenna around to see if there is a sweet spot for reception? That's a stretch but if you have a building in the LOS and an outdoor antenna is not an option, there may not be much more you can do other than try another kind of indoor antenna.
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post #3 of 32 Old 06-18-2012, 09:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godsfshrmn View Post

I live in a downtown area that is 8 miles from the broadcasting tower according to TV fool. I have tried to use a GE amplified indoor antenna (20db) from Target, but it is not enough to receive any channels except one that is pretty spotty. My line of sight is obstructed by an adjacent building and an outside antenna isn't an option. Can you guys recommend what I need to try next?
Thanks

Using an amplified antenna is most likely your issue. You're to close to be using that. The amp is most likely overloading your TV tuner. if you could post your TVfool results we could be better able to help you. But I suspect that is the issue.
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post #4 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 03:24 AM
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I agree, you do not need an amplified antenna if you are only 8 miles away. Try a conventional antenna like this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077

If it still does not work, try aiming the antenna towards a building behind you that does have Line of sight to the towers that the signals might bounce off of.
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post #5 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d134968f531b6b7

Well, I initially started out with that antenna but I didn't have any success with it. When I have the antenna's amp unplugged, my signal strength goes from about 60% down to zilch on every channel (roughly the same as the rabbit ears). I've been trying to move it around the room but it doesn't change but one channel. My window faces due north, which is the direction I'm trying to get most of my channels. What antenna should I try next?
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post #6 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 09:23 AM
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Unplugging the amplified antenna does not mean it will still work as a conventional antenna, so you might be misled by the readings.

I would try going as high as possible in your room. Put it high on your window facing north. Try opening the window because some glass does inhibit signals. They do sell antennas that can be mounted outside a window with a wall mount
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post #7 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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OK will try that later tonight. Should I look into getting something like a DB2?
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post #8 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 02:23 PM
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Have you tried something as simple as a coat hanger or a piece of wire? That close, I've seen that work.

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post #9 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 02:39 PM
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You may have an issue with multipath reflections, i.e., signals bouncing off several objects and reaching your receiver at slightly different times. That can cause interference that kills a DTV signal, where with analog, you would have seen ghosting. A prominent AVS forum member is from Chattanooga and has documented quite a few problems with multipath interference. I know when I was in Chattanooga last year, I'd get 90% signal one moment and 30% the next - it was quite difficult keeping a consistent signal.
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonoughDawg View Post

Have you tried something as simple as a coat hanger or a piece of wire? That close, I've seen that work.

Yeah that was the very first thing I tried in all different kinds of redneck configurations. I made one of those Youtube antennas when I lived in Knoxville that worked well. I think I will try to get that down here before I grab a different antenna.
I have noticed my signal does rapidly cycle from 70->35%ish a lot of the time. I assumed this was just the weak signal. So I could just be dealing with multipath reflections?
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post #11 of 32 Old 06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
So I could just be dealing with multipath reflections?

It's either that or interference.
\
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post #12 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Would a better tuner help? My TV is a early LCD, about 7 years old. When I lived in Knoxville, another TV in the home had no trouble using rabbit ears without line of sight, while mine cut out frequently with direct LOS.
I have better luck with reception using my HTPC's ATI TV Wonder 650 Tuner, which itself is at least 5 years old. I wonder if newer cards have better technology to deal with this, or is it just a physical limitation of physics and I'm stuck?
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post #13 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 10:50 AM
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You got me thinking now. What is the model of your TV? Its possible maybe you do not have a digital tuner, but analog. ATSC tuners were not being put into TV's until 2005.

Do you get all channels with your ATI tuner?
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post #14 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm pretty sure it has an ATSC tuner. I remember it being one of the first and I've been watching HDTV signal on it for years. When I do a channel search it lists digital and analog channels separately. It's a Phillips 37pf9631d.

It's interesting I can pick up two additional channels by pointing it at the opposite brick wall inside my apartment away from the signal. It has to be the multipath you guys were talking about earlier.
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post #15 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepier View Post

ATSC tuners were not being put into TV's until 2005.

That's incorrect.
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post #16 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 01:49 PM
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^^^ that's partially correct. I think mandated ATSC tuners started in July 2005 for new tv's greater than 36" and was required for all sizes by March 2007.
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post #17 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 02:53 PM
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Nonetheless.... TV's did have ATSC tuners prior to 2005, so the previous statement that TV's did not have ATSC tuners is completely incorrect.

The OP's Tv does have an ATSC tuner (as well as QAM).

TV Tuner NTSC/ATSC/QAM

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/438199-REG/Philips_37PF9631D_37_37PF9631D_37_Flat_Screen.html
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post #19 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 06:40 PM
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Hello, fellow Chattanoogan!

Multipath eats the signals alive around here. Where I am, on Missionary Ridge, I receive several stations from Atlanta without issue but none of the Chattanooga stations with my outdoor antenna. Tons of signal from them, but nothing decodes. I've made something that sort of works indoors and is not pretty.

Most cases should not be like mine. At work on 8th St downtown, I can see most of the full-power stations with an antenna in my office.

The DB2 may not be a bad option. You will definitely want something very directional to cut down the multipath.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #20 of 32 Old 06-20-2012, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That's interesting because I live downtown, but the buildings on 5th (I don't think?) aren't quite as tall in the north direction. What antenna are you using?
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post #21 of 32 Old 06-21-2012, 05:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Hello, fellow Chattanoogan!
Multipath eats the signals alive around here. Where I am, on Missionary Ridge, I receive several stations from Atlanta without issue but none of the Chattanooga stations with my outdoor antenna. Tons of signal from them, but nothing decodes.

You will definitely want something very directional to cut down the multipath.
- Trip


I've driven through and stayed in Chattanooga quite a few times on trips to Florida the past 20 years and always wondered about TV reception what with all that rock around it and being down in the valley. I used to loose FM stations on the car radio coming into town and only get them back once I was south again about 40 miles or so.

So the multipath bouncing around give ATSC tuners the fits I suppose trying to lock on to one of the signals. For in town stations I would imagine a lower gain directional antenna would be best.
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post #22 of 32 Old 06-21-2012, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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My Hauppauge 2250 came in today. On the stations I was getting signal, I'm at full strength and the video quality is MUCH better than my old ATI 650. I get a few different channels depending on the antenna placement, but its still spotty. I haven't been able to get any signal at all for channel 3. I've tried the antenna outside the window, facing my back wall, on the floor facing up/down, rabbit ears extended full/partially, aluminum foil behind it and still no luck. What's the best way for me to reduce the multipath?

And I know this isn't helping... in the direction of most of the antennas. My building is brick also. I can imagine a nice 'back and forth' pattern of the signal between the two buildings.. sigh
480
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post #23 of 32 Old 06-21-2012, 03:24 PM
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I'm using a small Winegard outdoor antenna standing on-end leaning against the wall of my office.

I'm trying to figure out where you are based on that image you posted, and while I feel like I've seen it before, I can't place it in my memory.

- Trip

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post #24 of 32 Old 06-21-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Hello, fellow Chattanoogan!
Multipath eats the signals alive around here. Where I am, on Missionary Ridge, I receive several stations from Atlanta without issue but none of the Chattanooga stations with my outdoor antenna. Tons of signal from them, but nothing decodes. I've made something that sort of works indoors and is not pretty.
- Trip

I asked @Rabbit73 if he could use his Sadelco DisplayMax 800 meter to find a reception location that is relative free of multipath interference and it appears he could. The 800 is a portable handheld spectrum analyzer. At my request he tried different locations to see if he could find a strong signal across the 6 MHz spectrum. At those location he did step 2 where he looked at the ATSC pilot and did fine tuning/movements to maximize the pilot signal strength. You need a strong pilot in order for the HDTV receiver to successfully decode the DTV signal. I hope this procedure helps you find that elusive 'sweet' spot at your home location.

His post can be found at:

www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22105317
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post #25 of 32 Old 06-22-2012, 05:30 AM
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What's strange is that the multipath here doesn't really show on the spectrum analyzer I have. The signals all look flat, they just don't decode. And I've moved my outdoor antenna all over the deck in every possible position.

http://www.rabbitears.info/specan/chatt/

I did a side-by-side on WSB and WDSI because WSB decodes and WDSI does not.

- Trip

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post #26 of 32 Old 06-27-2012, 05:52 PM
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Trip:

holl_ands posted a link here at DHC that might help explain:

http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20coverage%20and%20service%20prediction.pdf
DTV Coverage and Service
Prediction, Measurement and Performance Indices
page 4

VIII. SNR AND “FIELD STRENGTH” MEASUREMENT VIA
SPECTRUM INTEGRATION
Quote:
Defining the Signal as the total received power and the
Noise as AWGN leads to the conclusion that the SNR at the
input to the receiver increases with increased multipath. In
urban and indoor situations, there may not even be a main
signal, only reflections, some of which are of equal
magnitude.
If all multipath signals are part of the signal
power, then the SNR margin may not be an indicative
figure of merit of reception robustness. In any case, even
accurate measurement of the total received power may not
be trivial.

The integrated signal power is not just the Desired
Signal power. It includes, Man-made, Galactic, and
thermal noises and residual transmitter generated in-band
noise. It also includes some but not necessarily all multipath
signals. For example, pairs of identical and asymmetric
echoes, one of positive amplitude and positive delay
relative to the main signal and one of negative amplitude
and negative delay relative to the main signal, will cause
only a second-order distortion of the displayed power
spectrum. They will create group delay. Thus, in a
multipath channel, a pair of such echoes would measure
high SNR when using the spectrum integration technique
whereas in reality, the true SNR would be much lower.
There may be other combinations of echoes that would
yield essentially flat spectrum display.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html
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post #27 of 32 Old 06-28-2012, 04:26 PM
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I would buy the rabbit ears antenna from Radio Shack that was posted above. It might work better than the rabbit ears that you have. If not keep the receipt and take it back and get your money back.

I'm 8 miles from my stations and I use the Terk TV 5 indoor amplified antenna. I get all my stations at full strength and it picks up my PBS station 30 miles away. I keep it plugged up but I leave it turned off. With amplfied antennas you have to keep them plugged up for them to work. If you want to try the Terk TV 5 antenna Amazon sells them for $30 and you can get your money back if you aren't happy with it.

Also if some of your channels aren't showing up you might need to run another channel scan after you move the antenna or try a different one.

Broadcast TV - a vital national public resource
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post #28 of 32 Old 06-28-2012, 09:48 PM
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The Georgia Tech solution might work here. Especially for the vhf channels since there is a window which faces correctly. It's something I haven't yet seen, where rabbit ears alone would be shielded, but it could help. It would also take care of EMI difficulties. In a very tough room here, no vhf antenna works for rf9 & rf10. A uhf antenna does manage 1 of the two channels. With a correct window, the uhf antenna (Mohu Leaf) gets them both. In that room, the vhf signals aren't as strong as with other antennas, but it is enough signal for both rf9 & rf10.

In the tough room for reception, antenna height is critical. It must be adjusted for several channels. There are only a matter of inches where the antenna will work. It takes quite a bit of time to learn where to find the individual channels. All of the channels come from the same tower location.
Good Luck.
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post #29 of 32 Old 06-30-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

What's strange is that the multipath here doesn't really show on the spectrum analyzer I have. The signals all look flat, they just don't decode. And I've moved my outdoor antenna all over the deck in every possible position.
http://www.rabbitears.info/specan/chatt/
I did a side-by-side on WSB and WDSI because WSB decodes and WDSI does not.
- Trip

I reran TVFool for your address and the local results don't match the TVfool results you posted in your blog back in Nov 2011. The Chattanooga stations all show LOS. Will your landlord allow you mount your antenna higher up maybe above the roofline? The idea is to pickup more of the LOS signals such that they will decode better.

When I ran the map function of TVFool and then drew the lines to the transmitter, the line for WDSI went right over I24. When I did a street view at the I24 using Google maps, I could see the ridge line so I believe that some of your multipath interference is coming from I24. If you do have LOS as TVFool says, then you could try double stacking antennas to produce a narrower elevation beam. Also it might be possible to direct the elevation null at the ridge line so that you don't see as much of the multipath signal diffracting over the ridge line.
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post #30 of 32 Old 07-19-2012, 09:29 AM
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I just installed an attic antenna. Got rid of EPB.

Antennas Direct DB8 Multi-Directional Bowtie UHF Antenna with Extreme 70+ Miles Range

It is pointed @ 330 degrees.

I live in East Ridge @ 37412 and our house is on the top of hill close to Missionary Ridge.

I have a the antenna main run of about 30 feet to a Channel Vision Distribution panel:

CHANNEL VISION C-0332 1 In / 16 Out Amplified Rf Splitter

  • 1 dB signal gain per output
  • 1 Ghz broadband amplification
  • DC passing
  • Bi-Directional: 54 - 10,000MHz forward, 5-42MHz return

I receive the following HD channels without any extra amping or boosting of the lines.

18, 45 , 53, 61

When I add the 12v transformer to power the distribution channels I can get 3 and 12 but the signal strength is still low on 9.


I have 3 cable runs off the distribution panel.

Guessing here:

  • 30 feet
  • 40 feet
  • 50 feet

I was thinking of adding the following signal amplifier:


Winegard ANWI8700 Winegard AP Signal Amplifier


Product Features
High performance, low noise TV antenna preamplifier
Provides gain of 17 dB VHF, 19 dB UHF
Amplifies digital signal for HDTV broadcasts
Built in FM trap to prevent overload from strong local FM stations
Power supply and power injector included
17 dB VHF, 19 dB UHF
Amplifies digital signal

Do you think this will help me with channel 9?


I just discovered the antenna power ratings on AntennaPoint.com. Channel 9 is signficantly lower that the rest. 10.75Kw



Sign Affiliate RF Channel Virtual Channel Band Power City Distance Heading

  1. WELF-TV TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK 16 23.1 UHF 300.0 kW Dalton 9.38 mi 251.65°
  2. WDEF-TV CBS 12 12.1 VHF 20.27 kW Chattanooga 11.18 mi 330.30°
  3. WRCB-TV NBC 13 3.1 VHF 34.8 kW Chattanooga 12.55 mi 336.50°
  4. WTVC ABC 9 9.1 VHF 10.75 kW Chattanooga 12.65 mi 335.77°
  5. WTCI PBS 29 45.1 UHF 200.0 kW Chattanooga 15.03 mi 347.98°
  6. WFLI-TV CW 42 53.1 UHF 500.0 kW Cleveland 15.14 mi 348.85°
  7. WDSI-TV FOX 40 61.1 UHF 84.0 kW Chattanooga 15.14 mi 348.85°
  8. WNGH-TV PBS 33 18.1 UHF 426.0 kW Chatsworth 33.50 mi 119.97°
  9. WPXA ION 51 14.1 UHF 1000.0 kW Rome 57.44 mi 144.97°
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