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post #1 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, sorry I tried a few searches, but tapatalk is throwing lots of error. And won't search.

Anyway, how much bandwidth is needed to stream HD? Im buying an apple TV for kids, to stream their movies from
PC. However I currently only have G wifi. Do I need N for 1080?

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post #2 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 05:45 PM
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What do you consider Hi-Def? 'G' can handle SD (mostly) 'N', if you're lucky, will do 720p. No current wireless will reliably do 1080. If you get one of those crippled 720p Apples you might get lucky. Wired is best, but there are some power line based solutions that seem to work. Lots more info down in the Networking and Streaming Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/f/39/networking-media-servers-content-streamers
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post #3 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

Hey guys, sorry I tried a few searches, but tapatalk is throwing lots of error. And won't search.
Anyway, how much bandwidth is needed to stream HD? Im buying an apple TV for kids, to stream their movies from
PC. However I currently only have G wifi. Do I need N for 1080?

I have an AppleTV2 and have no problems at all streaming HD (720p) movies via Netflix, etc. using the G antenna. In fact, I've streamed 1080 from Vudu via my WiFi BD player using the same antenna. No problems. Streaming from a PC (I'm assuming you are talking about a Windows-based computer) is a bit more complicated to setup. N is nice but I find that G is a bit more stable, at least for us. The upcoming Apple OS (Mountain Lion) will have AirPlay which will allow you to stream anything on your laptop (at least an Apple laptop) to your tv via an ATV2.
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 07:23 PM
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It depends on the compression, but most online HD is in the 2-5 Mbps range. That said, you want to be closer to the 8-10 Mbps range for it to be reliable.

I have 30 Mbps and can watch an HD Hulu show on my computer downstairs while someone else watches another HD Hulu show on our Blu-Ray player upstairs.

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post #5 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 07:36 PM
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^^^ yeah, I should have added the ISP speed in my post as well. I would think that 10Mbps download (sustained, not burst) would do you fine. We have an 18Mbps sustained DSL line and I've never had any problems streaming while by son was online gaming and both my wife and I are online doing things. And, back to the ATV2 question, the streaming was via the G channel. We also have a MicroCell for our cell phones and cordless landline phones (as well as a Smart Meter for our utilities) and never have any interference or issues with streaming (unless the Netflix servers etc are overloaded). I've even connected the MB Air via HDMI to the tv and streamed that way with no issues.
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-14-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

Hey guys, sorry I tried a few searches, but tapatalk is throwing lots of error. And won't search.
Anyway, how much bandwidth is needed to stream HD? Im buying an apple TV for kids, to stream their movies from
PC. However I currently only have G wifi. Do I need N for 1080?

1080P from any streaming service is no problem with a wireless setup. You can easily stream it glitch free. The highest bitrate 1080P from a streaming service is VUDU and that is only at 9Mb/s. Zero issues doing that over wireless. Now if you are talking BD ISOs that can be another story. But even that is possible if you setup things correctly.

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post #7 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I'm talking about handbrake rips. Some movies are 7/9gb. I'd have to see what the rate is. I suppose with G, I'd be lucky to get 20mbits/s. which should be close. I don't ever plan to stream wireless from the media itself. Just nice looking (rf:18) rips of Pixar movies etc.

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post #8 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

Yes I'm talking about handbrake rips. Some movies are 7/9gb. I'd have to see what the rate is. I suppose with G, I'd be lucky to get 20mbits/s. which should be close. I don't ever plan to stream wireless from the media itself. Just nice looking (rf:18) rips of Pixar movies etc.

You didn't say anything about pirated movies, unless these are your purchased movies that you made a backup copy of rolleyes.gif Why don't you just connect your laptop directly to your tv and watch it that way?
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post #9 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

Yes I'm talking about handbrake rips. Some movies are 7/9gb. I'd have to see what the rate is. I suppose with G, I'd be lucky to get 20mbits/s. which should be close. I don't ever plan to stream wireless from the media itself. Just nice looking (rf:18) rips of Pixar movies etc.

How is a rip that is 7-9 GB HD? DVD is 7 GB and that's SD. If you were ripping a Blu-ray disc I think it's be much larger than 7-9 GB. Unless it's a crappy rip compressed all to hell. 20 Mbps for a 90 minute movie would be over 13 GB so at best you movies are about 12 Mbps.
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post #10 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I think that's what they are at. They are my sons Pixar movies. 1080p, strict, 5.1, rf18, movie only, no extras, no subs, no nothing. Hit play and go. I'll double check what they are tonight. As long as they look good, that's all that matters. It's a cheap TV the son has. I'll re-rip/encode to h264 for my theater.
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post #11 of 19 Old 07-18-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

How is a rip that is 7-9 GB HD? DVD is 7 GB and that's SD. If you were ripping a Blu-ray disc I think it's be much larger than 7-9 GB. Unless it's a crappy rip compressed all to hell. 20 Mbps for a 90 minute movie would be over 13 GB so at best you movies are about 12 Mbps.

I've been recompressing shows with the AVC codec and I have no problem getting 120 minutes of 1080i onto a dual-layer DVD-R. Not only does it not look "all compressed to hell" I can't tell any difference between them. It can easily maintain the same quality with half the bit rate of MPEG-2. I use two-pass encoding so it takes several hours to recompress.

I'm sure those high bit rate Blu-rays are better quality but it's not the massive difference you would expect.

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post #12 of 19 Old 07-18-2012, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scowl View Post

I've been recompressing shows with the AVC codec and I have no problem getting 120 minutes of 1080i onto a dual-layer DVD-R. Not only does it not look "all compressed to hell" I can't tell any difference between them. It can easily maintain the same quality with half the bit rate of MPEG-2. I use two-pass encoding so it takes several hours to recompress.
I'm sure those high bit rate Blu-rays are better quality but it's not the massive difference you would expect.

He said his rips were 1080p not 1080i.
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-20-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

He said his rips were 1080p not 1080i.
1080p at 24 frames per second requires less bandwidth than 1080i at 60 fields per second.

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post #14 of 19 Old 07-20-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

I've been recompressing shows with the AVC codec and I have no problem getting 120 minutes of 1080i onto a dual-layer DVD-R. Not only does it not look "all compressed to hell" I can't tell any difference between them. It can easily maintain the same quality with half the bit rate of MPEG-2. I use two-pass encoding so it takes several hours to recompress.
I'm sure those high bit rate Blu-rays are better quality but it's not the massive difference you would expect.
Well perhaps one of the reasons you can't tell the difference is because you use two pass encoding and believe that is superior to one pass constant quality. That's commonly called the placebo effect. Unless dual-layer DVD-R (not DVD+R?) are your storage media of choice there really is no reason for a second pass. Two pass was used a lot when people were compressing DVD in Xvid to fit a CD.
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post #15 of 19 Old 07-20-2012, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

Yes I'm talking about handbrake rips. Some movies are 7/9gb. I'd have to see what the rate is. I suppose with G, I'd be lucky to get 20mbits/s. which should be close. I don't ever plan to stream wireless from the media itself. Just nice looking (rf:18) rips of Pixar movies etc.

You didn't say anything about pirated movies, unless these are your purchased movies that you made a backup copy of rolleyes.gif Why don't you just connect your laptop directly to your tv and watch it that way?

I didn't say anything about pirated movies, because they are not. I generally try to buy the combo packs. My son (3 years old now) is very hard on discs, and so are our cheap headrest players in the wifes car. I rip the BR to my WD live. I used to have a seagate USB hdd connected to his tv with movies, but he pulled on the cord, while disc was spinning, killing the drive and USB connected on TV. So new option was apple TV. I hated trying to load a DVD for him in his room, then wait for previews (not all movies can you skip to top menu), to get his movie playing at bed time. Also on e disc is scratched (from him pulling them out of DVD player, and chucking on floor, or cheap car players scratching) they lockup etc. it's much better to rip the movie with no subs, no nothing he will use, and just push play, and say goodnight. Put TV on sleep timer of 30 mins and leave.

Also I rip movies for iPad, as not all movies came with digital copy, or I haven't used digital copy in time (as they are time limited). And digital copy is just for mobile, and look like **** on TV.

Putting a laptop in his room won't be happening.
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post #16 of 19 Old 07-21-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

Well perhaps one of the reasons you can't tell the difference is because you use two pass encoding and believe that is superior to one pass constant quality.

Two pass encoding is superior because it allows the encoder to allocate extra bits for frames that benefit with extra bits. Are you saying that all frames in an encode need exactly the same number of bits?

Quote:
That's commonly called the placebo effect.

I've made A/B frame comparisons between the original and my encode and can find no significant differences. I really am able to get HD material recompressed in nearly identical quality at DVD bit rates.

Quote:
Unless dual-layer DVD-R (not DVD+R?) are your storage media of choice there really is no reason for a second pass.

Perhaps your belief that a second pass isn't necessary is preventing you from seeing the benefit of the second pass. That's commonly called the placebo effect.

Quote:
Two pass was used a lot when people were compressing DVD in Xvid to fit a CD.

Yes, they were recompressing higher bit rate source for a lower bit rate medium. So what are we doing when we recompresss an HDTV source to fit onto a DVD? We are recompressing a higher bit rate source for a lower bit rate medium.

It's the same thing.

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post #17 of 19 Old 07-21-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scowl View Post

Two pass encoding is superior because it allows the encoder to allocate extra bits for frames that benefit with extra bits. Are you saying that all frames in an encode need exactly the same number of bits?
No, I said that unless you have a specific target size one pass constant quality encoding is superior, for exactly the reason you cite. 1 pass CQ allocates bits as needed to maintain quality. The second pass then goes through and robs bits from some scenes to make the video fit the target size. Neither is a constant bit rate method (the least desirable option).
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I've made A/B frame comparisons between the original and my encode and can find no significant differences. I really am able to get HD material recompressed in nearly identical quality at DVD bit rates.
And that's what I said. Your perception is that there's no difference. If you are happy with the result that is what matters. If you take a screen shot of an original frame and a negative of the exact same frame from the compressed version and combine them I guarantee you'll see artifacts.
Quote:
Perhaps your belief that a second pass isn't necessary is preventing you from seeing the benefit of the second pass. That's commonly called the placebo effect.
Again, no. I don't use a second pass because I'n not concerned with fitting a video to a certain size. I store movies on hard drives, which are significantly cheaper per GB than dual-layer DVDs and a lot more convenient.
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Yes, they were recompressing higher bit rate source for a lower bit rate medium. So what are we doing when we recompresss an HDTV source to fit onto a DVD? We are recompressing a higher bit rate source for a lower bit rate medium.
It's the same thing.
Finally, I did ask if DVD was your choice of storage, and apparently it is.
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post #18 of 19 Old 07-21-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by N49ATV View Post

I didn't say anything about pirated movies, because they are not.
Putting a laptop in his room won't be happening.

Fair enough. It wasn't clear from your first post as to where the movies were coming from. As far as giving him a laptop, that is completely understandable given the age wink.gif
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post #19 of 19 Old 07-22-2012, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Fair enough. It wasn't clear from your first post as to where the movies were coming from. As far as giving him a laptop, that is completely understandable given the age wink.gif

Oh it's all good, I have just been part of some forums over the years, gaming, music, movies, whatever, where people are getting help with clearly stolen stuff. I just wanted to make sure this thread didn't go sideways or get locked due to piracy talk etc. as I think this info would be good for others aswell. Just wish my tapatalk worked better for searching etc. I get a lot of errors on numerous forums.
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