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post #31 of 59 Old 10-12-2013, 05:52 PM
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Wow! I'm surprised that the preamp made no change in your signal strength. All I can figure is that the preamp isn't working.

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post #32 of 59 Old 10-12-2013, 07:03 PM
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No, put it at the input! Otherwise, it's useless. Until it's correctly installed, you won't know if it's having any effect or not. This is the third time I've told you where it needs to be.

Keep in mind that "signal strength" meters in TV sets don't measure signal strength. If the reception problem is due to signal quality issues, the amp will make little to no difference. If the amp was not working, you would have seen a marked reduction in overall reception.
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post #33 of 59 Old 10-12-2013, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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The preamp has a built in fm trap, so there's no reason to run 2 are there? That's why I took it out completely.

The channel seems to be as consistent as it had been without the amp.
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post #34 of 59 Old 10-13-2013, 04:08 AM
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Yes, there is a reason I told you to try it on the input (I know how ineffective the internal one is). I specifically wanted the FM filtering doubled as you have multiple unobstructed 80K FM stations less than 5 miles away with a calculated signal differential of 30 dB-40 greater than KNTV.

There are multiple possible reasons that you're having problems with that one channel. Adding a filter (properly) that you already have in hand will take care of one potential reason.
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post #35 of 59 Old 10-13-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Just moved the trap. I noticed without the trap my second TV wasn't getting NBC at all. It's picking it up again but the reception isn't that great.

The signal doesn't seem to be any different though. I'd say the two channels giving me the biggest problem, ION and NBC are slightly worse after the preamp install.

Edit: had a hunch since the separate/combined switch was the opposite of what the manual said so I double checked the fm trap. Manual said it was on by default, it was turned off. Now both traps are on. The signal strength is the same. The stability seems about the same, but I'll give it more time to see how it goes.
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post #36 of 59 Old 10-14-2013, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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So after testing this out for a day or so, I don't think it's making a difference. I did confirm that I do need the fm trap to get NBC on the second tv though.

These results make me think that the NBC (and sometimes ION) signal that I'm getting is occasionally getting blocked by something (trees would be my guess), so when I get the signal, it's strong, but I don't always get the signal. The preamp wouldn't help with that though
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post #37 of 59 Old 10-15-2013, 07:18 AM
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See post # 8.

You're probably down to two possible remedies, either singly or in combination:

1) Go big. Your signals from San Bruno are likely far weaker than the math suggests. A much larger antenna will have an advantage of being more capable at picking up weaker signals at a better signal to noise ratio and will better reject multipath.

2) Continue experimenting with antenna height and location to see if you can find a better location.

Trees don't seem to have the ability to affect VHF as severely as they do UHF. However, if you can find a tree-free signal path, that might be helpful.

One other possibility is local electrical interference. The only effective way that would be diagnosed would be to get your hands on a spectrum analyzer.
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post #38 of 59 Old 10-15-2013, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think I can really go much bigger. If it was my house sure, but it's just an apartment so I'll need to bring it with me eventually haha.

I might play around with position but I probably won't mess around too much more.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
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post #39 of 59 Old 10-19-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So, like a madman I've given it my all today to see what I could do. I replaced all the old cable ends (they were outside from an old satellite installation and the ends were pretty corroded).

I went back and forth from the root adjusting the antenna, using the amp, not using the amp, messing with the ground, in the middle of the day it seemed to start getting significantly worse and I couldn't get it back. Felt exactly like this: http://xkcd.com/349/

After much, much trial and error I think I got the ideal direction for the antenna. To the south east of where I live there is a big mountain, if I aim the antenna way west around the mountain, I get NBC pretty good but lost ION. If I aimed it way east around the mountain I got ION ok (not great), but couldn't get NBC. The best location is pretty much pointing directly at the mountain between a gap in some trees.

Weirdly, my second TV actually seems to be handling the NBC signal better than the first. I've been testing this by having them both on and my main tv (55" plasma) seems to cut out a lot more than the second tv (26" LCD). There were times where the primary tv would cut out for a few seconds where the second tv wouldn't have any problems.

I'm still not convinced the amp is doing anything. After getting what I felt like was the ideal position of the antenna I started messing around using or not using the amp. With the amp installed the signal strength doesn't change and the picture stability (not sure if that's the right word) doesn't appear to change.

I also tried installing a grounding block with a 10AWG solid copper core wire for a ground wire but that reduced the signal strength by 8% or so. Would hooking up a ground directly to the antenna cause any signal issues?

Getting a good workout today though, I've probably gone up and down off the roof more than 30 times.

Thoughts? I know the amp at the antenna is the better choice but I might try a distribution amp just so I can be sure I've exhausted my current options (besides getting an even bigger antenna or a rotator).
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post #40 of 59 Old 10-20-2013, 12:00 AM
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Wow... you've tried just about everything. As you're finding out, TV signal reception is a crap shoot and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

If the amp isn't doing anything, it must not be working. Take it out of the line and send it back for a new one. An amp that doesn't increase your signal is no good, so you need to replace it. Other than that I don't have anything further to offer as suggestions.

Looks like the tuner in your smaller LCD set is better than in the larger TV. For my own curiosity, is the smaller set newer than the large one? For me, every newer TV I've bought has had a better tuner than the previous models. Our first Sony, which produces a great HD picture and is still working great, only receives about half the channels that the newer sets get. The tuner in our new DVR beats them all and receives three stations that I can't get at all on any of the other sets.

All the best in your continued efforts...

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post #41 of 59 Old 10-20-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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The smaller tv (LNT2653H) is actually significantly older than my Plasma (a GT50). 6 years older in fact haha.

The only thing I was thinking is maybe the smaller tv could handle a worse signal better because it doesn't need to be amplified as much to fill a large screen (that was the only thing I could think of, probably way off though).

It's frusting, soooooooo close to having exactly what I'd like.
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post #42 of 59 Old 10-21-2013, 12:57 AM
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The signal strength depends on the sensitivity of the tuner in the receiver. It has nothing to do with the size of the picture. In your case, your older TV is better for receiving weak signals.

Change that preamp and I think you'll be in business.

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post #43 of 59 Old 10-21-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Ya, I understood that much

I was just wondering if the TV had to amplify the signal it got from the tuner (which I would think would require more amplification to fit a bigger screen).

I have a replacement amp on the way (same one) so we'll see how that goes when I get it
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post #44 of 59 Old 10-26-2013, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Well this is kinda strange. I got the new amp in and when using the new amp I no longer get NBC. Switching back to the old amp I DO get NBC. I double checked to make sure the FM trap was on as well.

I literally just replaced the amp so the cable length is the same for both. The old amp is mounted on the pole the antenna is, the new one I just hooked up and let sit on the roof (no idea if that would make a difference).
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post #45 of 59 Old 10-27-2013, 12:17 AM
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Sorry, but I don't know what to tell you now. None of your results make any sense. All I can say is best of luck on your trials and efforts.

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post #46 of 59 Old 10-27-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotsho111 View Post

Well this is kinda strange. I got the new amp in and when using the new amp I no longer get NBC. Switching back to the old amp I DO get NBC. I double checked to make sure the FM trap was on as well.

I literally just replaced the amp so the cable length is the same for both. The old amp is mounted on the pole the antenna is, the new one I just hooked up and let sit on the roof (no idea if that would make a difference).

You might want to move the RCA preamp power inserter closer to the preamp. The regulated voltage required by the preamp is generated in the power inserter, I think it is +10 VDC. If you have a long cable run, this voltage will drop, possibly to too low a value to power the preamp.
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post #47 of 59 Old 10-27-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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The cable length from the power inserter to the preamp is ~30 feet. I can't really get it much closer than that.

I did swap the preamps again today and this time the results were the same. I'm guessing it's just crazy coincidences.

I does appear that when the preamp is in I either get a clean signal or nothing where without the amp I would get some pixellation a clean signal, or nothing.

I'm not sure how much more I can do from here but I appreciate the help from everyone.

If I come across some magic bullet I'll let everyone knows (in case anyone stumbles across this in the future)
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post #48 of 59 Old 10-28-2013, 04:57 PM
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Your preamp boosts both signal and noise the same amount (somewhere in the 10-30 dB range), so even with a splitter both TVs should be getting strong signals. (A 2-way splitter takes 3 dB away from each output.) I think your problem with NBC and ION are that you are hitting the bottom end of your combined system's noise margin (the signal to noise ratio, expressed in dB). If the noise margin by the time it gets to the TV is negative or near zero, then there is no way for the tuner to separate signal from noise.

If you take the NM figure in your TVFool report for a channel, add your antenna's gain figure for that range or channel, then subtract the noise floor of your preamp, you get the real noise margin your TV will see. That part about "subtract the noise floor of your preamp" may be your saving grace: Most of the $20-$30 preamps have noise floors around 5 dB! ChannelMaster has some that come in around 3 dB, but Winegard has a brand new LNA-200 preamp for about $80 on Amazon) that has 1 dB across the entire OTA spectrum.

That extra 4 dB might make a real difference for your marginal channels. I live in North San Diego County so the nearest broadcast tower farms are 75 miles Northwest over 2 mountains (Mt. Wilson in LA) and 45 miles South over one nearby hill (Mt. Soledad in San Diego). I have a 10 element Yagi directional antenna (~10 dB gain) with Winegard's previous LNA-100 preamp pointed at Mt. Wilson. I get the VHF channels with 100% symbol quality. By the conventional wisdom of the antenna info websites, 75 miles is about the limit for Line Of Sight (LOS) signal paths, but I manage to do it over two mountains because of the high-gain antenna and low noise floor preamp.

I also manage to get very good (100% symbol quality) UHF channels from Mt. Wilson with a ChannelMaster highly-directional 8 bow-tie UHF antenna and their UHF-only preamp. That would actually get another 2 or so dB NM if I replace the preamp with a Winegard LNA-200.

You may not want to change to a higher gain antenna because they obtain that gain by being much more directional. You have some very receivable stations in several different directions, so you should probably try upgrading the preamp to see if it gets "good enough" with your "center of the mountain" position. Of course, that is if you want to spring for $80 on the hope to get both ION and NBC with one antenna setting.

Good Luck!
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post #49 of 59 Old 10-28-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
but Winegard has a brand new LNA-200 preamp for about $80 on Amazon) that has 1 dB across the entire OTA spectrum.

Try around 3 dB on UHF and 4-5 dB on VHF for the LNA200! The RCA amp is actually quieter (and a third of the cost). The LNA100 indoor amp actually is 1 dB NF. See http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23632553 and following for test results.
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post #50 of 59 Old 10-28-2013, 06:17 PM
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That Winegard preamp has been selling for around $50 - $57 from various online vendors. I think the noise figure may be around 1db on certain channels, and 3db on others as stated. You may also want to consider one of the Kitztech preamps, as they have a low noise figure and perform well. I have gotten by best signal strengths from the Kitztech.
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post #51 of 59 Old 10-29-2013, 03:49 AM
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I think the noise figure may be around 1db on certain channels, and 3db on others as stated.

Keep scrolling down to post # 15500....

It didn't do any better that 2 dB on ANY channel.
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post #52 of 59 Old 11-03-2013, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I looked at the Kitztech but I haven't had much luck with the preamps I've had.

I think I'm just in a bad location for NBC.

At this point I don't really wanna spend that kinda money unless I know it's going to work
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post #53 of 59 Old 11-03-2013, 06:27 PM
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I have had best signal strength readings from the Kitztech 100 and 200 preamps, and the original Channel Master 7778 and 7777. Perhaps slightly better with the Kitztech. Performance of the new Winegard LNA-200 has been questioned, but it is apparently their new low noise version replacing most of their other models.
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post #54 of 59 Old 02-19-2014, 01:26 AM
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here is my tvfool report  http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9485d667dd29

 

as you can see KNXT is listed at -9.6 NM(db) at 140.3 miles distance from my antenna, a colorstar c490 and I get it solid evening to mid morning. I am using a RCA preamp. "Audiovox TVPRAMP1R" My first one cost me signal, so I sent it back, now, replacement is good. 

 

So I have to say that my experience is the same as yours. hours and hours of experimenting to get what I have now, I understand your pain. Any luck with NBC yet??


Josh
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post #55 of 59 Old 02-19-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't had any luck getting NBC consistently, which does confuse me since the tower is like a block away from the ION tower which i get without issues 99% of the time. From everything I've seen I should be getting it without any major issues.

I tried swapping out a few preamps as well as a distribution amp (because I would see different results between my living room and bedroom tv) and nothing really made a difference.

I think my issue is that I either get the signal or I don't, so a preamp won't really help. I'm sure a bigger antenna would solve it, but if I ever moved I might have issues reusing it (too big to fit in an apartment if I can't get it on a roof).

I want to try messing around with different antenna positions and heights, which I think could solve the problem, but it's tricky to test alone.
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post #56 of 59 Old 02-19-2014, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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My situation is also starting to drive me nuts since the TV in my living room seems to be able to handle the signal better than the smaller tv in my bedroom.

I even tried taking the cable running to the bedroom tv and looping it back and hooking it up to the living room tv and it works fine.

There are even times where I will get just a black screen in the bedroom tv and the living room tv is doing fine.

I tried getting a distribution amp which I thought might help since each tv had different quality but it didn't make a difference. I even tried running the cable higher along the wall in case it was getting interference from something.

Both tvs are hooked into the same type of surge protector and the only real difference I can see between the two is the bedroom surge protector has the internet coax running through it (the antenna coax doesn't run through any surge protectors) but I can't see that making a difference

NBC is the only channel this happens with too. There are times when both tvs will get no signal, but it seems like the living room tv always handles it better (with the preamp I feel like the second tv was handling the signal better...)

I need to just give up because every time I try and fix it, what I see makes no sense and it just pisses me off even more.
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post #57 of 59 Old 02-20-2014, 12:28 AM
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Hotsho111... I haven't seen any info on a change of antenna. Are you still using the 7694P? If so, I don't understand why ION is okay but KNTV NBC is not. That's supposed to be a High VHF/UHF antenna.

As you said, 11 and 65 are next to each other atop Mt. San Bruno. For comparison, how is your signal for KTSF channel 26 (RF 27)? It's located right next to KKPX-ION but is running less power.

There are also two low power stations up there... KFTL 28 and KMMC 40... do you receiver either of those?

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post #58 of 59 Old 02-20-2014, 05:23 PM
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I live in Mill Valley. Here's my TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae59013eed0b

NBC was likewise driving me crazy in my two story condo. I ended up putting a ClearStream 5 dedicated VHF antenna in my attic, linked to a ClearStream 4 for UHF, and then running everything through a Radio Shack FM Trap.

NBC now comes in clear as bell 99% of the time!
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post #59 of 59 Old 02-20-2014, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Larry, still using the 7694P.

I also don't understand why ION would be fine but not NBC.

I also don't get KTSF (I've never gotten it) and I know that's in the area too. I don't get KTFL or KMMC

Ya, I think if I got a bigger antenna or a second one I could definitely solve the issue.

I still think I should be able to solve it by playing with the placement of the antenna but I can't do it alone.
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