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post #1 of 22 Old 11-11-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to inter connect two houses I own with cable TV (HD and standard) and Internet. I would like to run the wire outside. The cable will be exposed to the elements, and for a short distance buried. The entire run is about 200m (656 feet)
Can you suggest any types of cable(s) and methods that might  work.
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post #2 of 22 Old 11-11-2013, 06:45 PM
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The cable company handles this process for you. Because what you are proposing is not legal. One cable connection per residence. Otherwise theft of service. You cannot run a cable from one house to the house next door.
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post #3 of 22 Old 11-12-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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It is a guest house so I believe it is allowed.

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post #4 of 22 Old 11-12-2013, 10:51 AM
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Yes, if both homes share the same address it is allowed.

For that kind of length you should probably be looking at RG11 since it doesn't introduce as much loss as RG6 or RG6 QS would. Most RG11 I believe is rated for being outdoors and buried.

I would say maybe one of these.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=13&p=C6D60EP-N-R1K&d=Installation-Pro-RG6-60-Plenum-SC-CMP-Neutral-1000-Foot-Reel-in-Box-(C6D60EPNR1K)&c=BulkRG-11CoaxCable&sku=

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=13&p=SKY11C95RB&d=Skywalker-Signature-Series-RG11-Coax-Cable-wBare-Solid-Copper-Center-1000-ft-Reel-Black-(SKY11C95RB)&c=BulkRG-11CoaxCable&sku=

You may want to check with SolidSignal to verify they would be ok for burial.

I would make sure to get solid copper core, just in case you ever decide to go with DirecTV or Dish.

As far as getting internet out to the guest home how were you planning to do that? You can't just put another cable modem out there (Comcast doesn't allow more than one modem per account as far as I know). You will need to think about using MOCA to send the internet signal out over the RG11, or maybe look into running a Cat 5/Cat 6 ethernet cable out along with the RG11 (that would be my suggestion).
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post #5 of 22 Old 11-12-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw-ct View Post

It is a guest house so I believe it is allowed.
That may be the case if same property or same address.
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post #6 of 22 Old 11-12-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerstalker View Post

I would make sure to get solid copper core, just in case you ever decide to go with DirecTV or Dish.

Also to minimize signal loss, since the length of the run is approaching 700 feet.

Don't ever make the MISTAKE of buying a Samsung TV..
They consider THIS
normal on a two month old set..
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post #7 of 22 Old 11-13-2013, 10:10 PM
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Back when i worked cable the rule was if it has a kitchen sink and a toilet it was a separate residence. That aside you're not going to make it 700' on any kind of cable (well, maybe .875" trunk) without amplification and more importantly equalization. The cable slope (difference in loss between low frequencies and high) will kill you.
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post #8 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

Also to minimize signal loss, since the length of the run is approaching 700 feet.
The RF rides on the surface of the cable -- the core isn't even involved. It took several pages of search results, but I finally found a cable that had published specs. At 1GHz, it loses 6.9dB over 100'. Both Times Fiber and Commscope lose 6.54, while Belden 1694A loses 6.42dB/100'.
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CIAO!

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post #9 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 10:25 AM
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With a length of 700 feet, you may have to amplify it at its midpoint, which makes the copper center conductor more important to assure that the amplifier source's voltage is maintained.
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post #10 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

The RF rides on the surface of the cable -- the core isn't even involved. It took several pages of search results, but I finally found a cable that had published specs. At 1GHz, it loses 6.9dB over 100'. Both Times Fiber and Commscope lose 6.54, while Belden 1694A loses 6.42dB/100'.

The RF is in fact on the core of the cable. It does move to the surface of the core as frequency goes up and is known as "Skin Effect". For that 700' length, be prepared to amplify and equalize.
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post #11 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 10:50 AM
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With 7dB per 100' loss at high frequency you can easily amplify it at the source. BUT with only 1dB loss per 100' at low frequencies you'll have over 40dB of negative slope to contend with at the far end. That will require equalizing as ideally you'll want to be flat to slightly positively sloped. I'd probably try to find a couple 25dB gain amps with 15dB slope adjustment and put one at each end of the cable. FWIW I'd also probably use .625 cable:

http://www.n2prise.org/matvbil3.htm
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post #12 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 11:41 AM
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Good luck finding 25dB gain amplifiers with 15dB slope adjustments. The commercial "house amplifier" industry makes lots of single stage 30dB gain amplifiers with a maximum of 10 dB of adjustable slope. You could put a 6dB pad in front of that amplifier, but the complication you introduce when you try to excessively reverse slope a signal going into a high-powered amplifier is that the maximum output ratings are generally for "flat" loads, and if you push the launch amplifier to a level at which its channel 135 is sustainable over a length of 700 feet, the intermodulation in the amplifier may well degrade the low channels more than they might be able to tolerate With analog channels, we could actually "see" the degradation and adjust from there accordingly, but with digital signals, we often design and "certify" the efficacy of our implementations on the faith that our engineering is valid and that our active components are performing just as well as their spec sheets say they will. I would probably have no problem making a 700 foot trunkline work with amplifiers just at the ends, but in trying to coach someone who does not have signal measurement equipment and a truck loaded with alternative value components, it is easier plan a system with midpoint amplification as it enables us to establish likely nominal signal values that are nearer to the center of the optimal operating ranges and parameters and thus safer for, shall we say, unsupervised operation.
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post #13 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

The RF is in fact on the core of the cable. It does move to the surface of the core as frequency goes up and is known as "Skin Effect". For that 700' length, be prepared to amplify and equalize.
Fair enough. I guess the solid copper cable does have a slightly lower attenuation at the low end than does CCS, but it's the high end that is more of a concern over distances. Comparing the chart I found with other major manufacturers, I found the following (attenuation over 100'):

Freq CCS SCC
50MHz 1.6 1.3
211MHz 3.05 2.9
450MHz 4.4 4.4
550MHz 4.9 4.9
870MHz 6.11 6.4
1000MHz 6.55 6.9

CIAO!

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post #14 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

Good luck finding 25dB gain amplifiers with 15dB slope adjustments.

The Toner TDA35 distribution amp has 35dB forward gain with 20dB of slope control. It also has 18dB of reverse gain. I spec'd them for a townhouse development mainly because I could power them remotely, and was quite pleased at how stable they were sitting outdoors in pedestals.

CIAO!

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post #15 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

The Toner TDA35 distribution amp has 35dB forward gain with 20dB of slope control. It also has 18dB of reverse gain. I spec'd them for a townhouse development mainly because I could power them remotely, and was quite pleased at how stable they were sitting outdoors in pedestals.


I hadn't seen that line of amplifiers. 6 volt DC wallwart? Is it a switching wallwart? Amplifiers in that power range used to use 26 VAC, 1.3 amp or larger "filament" transformers

http://www.tonercable.com/assets/images/ProductFiles/531/Toner%20TDA35-1000%20CATV%20Distribution%20Amplifier.pdf

The specs are difficult to interpret. the 46dB/34dB (12dB tilt) intermod levels are surely with an analog load, but we are looking to operate it with a 20dB slope and digital channel load. FWIW, when one of the manufacturers of similar amplifiers began posting a ratings table for 50% digital/50% analog loads, they knocked 4dB off all their max numbers. With a full digital load and with 20dB of slope, I'm afraid I can only guess how it will effect low frequency channels that are 8dB further below the high ones than they are in the published specs table, but I'd say that if someone tried to launch at, say 35dB/15dB, they might come out of the 700' coax at -10/5dB, and so they might only use a gentile 15dB drop amp with an inline attenuator ahead of it. Talking dealer price, since Toner doesn't ordinarily sell retail over the phone, are we talking $300-$400 here, which is what the Blonder Tongue BIDAs have for dealer prices? I was figuring on an ACA-860 or 1000 which can commonly be bought retail for $130 along with a 6dB pad, and then maybe a 24dB "drop amp" and another 10dB pad at a midpoint, maybe 2/3s of the way to the cottage. and then any old drop amp at the cottage if necessary.

On further review, I now see that most "ACA" amplifiers that are selling cheap do not have return paths, whereas various ACA amps that include the suffix "R" do. While I carry sub-band diplexers that would enable me to work around that problem, you probably wouldn't want to get involved with something like that, so iof you do see any ACA amps at prices that are too good to pass up,just make sure they have return paths in them.

BTW, I see that this model amp can be purchased with a wide, 5-65 MHz return path. Toner has been making that option available in other large amplifiers for a long time now, but I have never seen any cable company use a wide return path. Has it become more common place?
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 02:05 PM
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I just found an eBay listing for a new Toner TDA35 1000-42 presently opening at $250 with $20 shipping, and will be listed for four more days: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toner-CATV-Amplifier-TDA-35-1000-42-/151166405703?pt=US_Splitters_Combiners&hash=item2332384c47 .
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post #17 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

I just found an eBay listing for a new Toner TDA35 1000-42 presently opening at $250 with $20 shipping...
That's kind of on the pricey side. I've seen it for ~$207 elsewhere, free shipping.

It is a 6VDC wallwart. Just a class 2 transformer. Doesn't say it's switching. In my system, I ran 24VAC around to power both the TDAs and network switches, with an Altronix SMP5 (could have used SMP3s) at the TDAs and 7.5VDC power modules at the switches.

I don't think that a return path going up to 65MHz has become that much more common in the U.S. Perhaps that's intended more for international uses.

CIAO!

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post #18 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 03:36 PM
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Like I said, get some .625 cable. At 2dB per 100' @ 1GHz and a slope of about 13dB for that distance you could use a cheap drop amp to get there.

http://www.timesfiber.com/TFC_Cable_Book_III.pdf
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post #19 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 04:19 PM
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These guys offer .625 messengered aeriel cable for $1 a foot, and they say that they have "some" flooded cable available, which is what the original poster needs.

http://www.cableandwireshop.com/625_jcam_hardline_cable_messengered.html

3 Star Inc stocks Hardline and Drop Coaxial Cable for aerial, underground, communication tower and wi-fi applications using flexible cables such as RG-8X, RG-59, RG-6, RG-7, RG-11, RG-213, LMR-240, LMR-400, some available in 60% ,95%, tri-shield, quad-shield, messengered, flooded, siamese, riser and plenum. We also have Hardline Coaxial Cable in .500, .540, .625, .715, .750, .840, .860, .875, 1.000 and 1.250, some available in standard, messengered, and flooded versions.
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post #20 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 04:23 PM
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

...

I don't think that a return path going up to 65MHz has become that much more common in the U.S. Perhaps that's intended more for international uses.
Just an aside, odds are it will catch on here as the need for return bandwidth increases. With more systems going entirely digital it is suddenly becoming more feasible and would really only involve swapping diplex filters and a sweep. It's good practice to do a full system sweep once in a while anyway. Without NTSC allocations the return crossover can be placed anywhere.
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post #22 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 05:24 PM
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There are still NTSC allocations (6MHz channels, and its unlikely that the channel numbers will change), but you're right that it wouldn't be too surprising if they did away with forward channels 2, 3 and 4, expanding the return path up to 64MHz and starting the forward path with channel 5 (76MHz).

CIAO!

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