F Connector for RG 11 Direct Bury - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 12-13-2013, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

 

I’ve I’m looking for a recommendation for an F Connector to fit the coax depicted in the photos attached.  Unfortunately, this wire is not marked.  However, I believe that it is RG 11 Direct Bury.  It has the center conductor, a dielectric, one heavy and thick aluminum shield (which is difficult to score and fold back) and the outer jacket.  There seems to be a sticky substance coating the area under the outer jacket.  I presume this is waterproofing that is part of a direct bury design.  The cable may have been installed by Comcast three to five years ago. 

 

I have tried terminating it with PPC connector EX11N716WS and a Sargent SAR-300 Compression Tool as well as Ideal compression connectors for RG 11.  In both cases but the connector just slips right off after it is compressed. 

 

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

 

John

 

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post #2 of 29 Old 12-13-2013, 05:52 PM
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You may not be shoving the wire far enough into the connector. I used to have to service three highrise buildings that had RG-11 trunklines tapped on every floor that the installer hadn't pushed the wire deep enough into the connectors to assure that the center conductor seized, and since there is no way to eyeball them once they have been compressed, I wound up cutting off over 50 connectors just because I could not stand behind any connectors that I had not myself installed.

What you need to do is use something as a "depth gauge" and insert it into the connector to measure the distance from the base of the connector to where the center conductor meets the seizure sleeve. Clamp your thumb onto whatever you use for this to mark the depth, and then put your thumb against the end of the bare center conductor on your prepped, RG-11 and see where the end of the depth gauge is on the black outer jacket, and then add 1/4" to that and mark the jacket there with anything, a pen or a scratch. You also need to make sure that the end of the RG-11 has been restored back nice and round, as if it is misshapen as a result of the force of being cut, it may catch and not slide into the connector properly. Then, you have to shove the RG-11 into the connector until your mark is even with the end of the connector. Then compress.

I just started diddling with the Cyberlink snapshot feature on my laptop, so by the time the day is done, I might know how to "host" a picture that I take, and if I do, I will try to put up some pictures of that confusing measurement that I described above.
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post #3 of 29 Old 12-13-2013, 08:13 PM
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The pictures of the coax don't look like most brands of RG 11. It looks like the 75 ohm hardline used by cable companies out on the street. It is usually terminated with an N connector like L44W-70 on site http://www.therfc.com/hlconn.htm. You probably need to the manufacturer to get the correct type. some info on home made connectors is here http://forums.qrz.com/archive/index.php/t-33440.html
John
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post #4 of 29 Old 12-14-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdish View Post

The pictures of the coax don't look like most brands of RG 11. It looks like the 75 ohm hardline used by cable companies out on the street. It is usually terminated with an N connector like L44W-70 on site http://www.therfc.com/hlconn.htm. You probably need to the manufacturer to get the correct type. some info on home made connectors is here http://forums.qrz.com/archive/index.php/t-33440.html
John
Gotta love the internet for partial truths and wild guesses. With nearly 30 years experience in CATV I have yet to see a type 'N' connector used except perhaps an occasional BNC used for video. Hard to tell with the jacket folded back but by the looks of that ruler I'd say it's .412 cable. See page g-32 of this PDF: http://www.auspicecorp.com/product_catalog/tw_docs/TWS%20Sec_G.pdf


EDIT: to confirm it's .412 cable, measure the cable with a caliper. It should be .412" in diameter.
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post #5 of 29 Old 12-14-2013, 07:21 PM
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I once got a good price on eBay on some used tunable notch connectors with N connectors, so to use them I had to put on N to BNC and then BNC to F adapters. Try to find any of the big, screw-on connectors. I think "256" was the numerical root portion of another connector part number I had to scrounge up. You can find these parts in various supplier's listings, but when you go to order them, they never have any.

What I couldn't figure from the picture of the coax was,

1) How did the folded-back shield get sliced so neatly? and,

2) How is it that the center conductor was sharpened to a pencil point?

.412 hardline connectors I've seen look just like .500 hardline connectors but only smaller, and the cable preparation was done with a coring tool. I service the distribution in one Chicago 26 story hotel that has .412 hardline for its vertical trunk,, but nothing ever goes wrong with it.
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post #6 of 29 Old 12-14-2013, 09:47 PM
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I imagine the OP peeled it back like a banana. I'd go ask your local cable company if they can hook you up with a couple .412 fittings. Almost no cable cos use that size anymore. Or ask at this forum: http://www.cabl.com/


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post #7 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 07:07 AM
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Looking now at how ugly the surface of the white dielectric is, that looks like aluminum sheath was pried away from it.

If you can get those connectors, you need to buy this tool to put them on the cable:

$T2eC16VHJGYFFlKhOL+lBRsiW7U%29%28!~~60_57.JPG

Here is a used one on eBay for $20 or best offer, plus shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cablematic-CST-412-Stripping-And-Coring-Tool-/121132751729?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c34131b71


Here's another from another seller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CABLE-PREP-DCT-412-STRIP-CORING-TOOL-/190999952369?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c787bfbf1

Unfortunately for jeheiderich, he seems to need a hardline to F adaptor, and those may be hard to find. The cable company normally uses "entry pins" to connect this cable to hardline taps:

'img]
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post #8 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 07:29 AM
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I see that the thread starter, newbie jheiderich, has not been back online since Friday night, just a few hours before he authored this one and only post here, so unless he replies, I will not be further seeking out .412 adaptors, but I did look for them last year, when a commercial customer of mine had mistakenly concluded that he needed .412 hardline serviced, and they are hard to find.
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post #9 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

With nearly 30 years experience in CATV I have yet to see a type 'N' connector used except perhaps an occasional BNC used for video.

its been a long time time since I had anything to do with CATV hardline cables but IIRC Type N connectors are 50Ω and should not be used with 75Ω cables.

Just curious, what is the most common cable(s) (style and size) used in local neighborhoods by the cable folks? Same question for the customer drops?


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post #10 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 12:01 PM
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Comcast uses RG-6, RG-7 (old Adelphia systems), RG-11 and QR320 cable for their service drops. QR320 is a small hardline type cable that crushes easily. A trick that I have learned over the years with underground cable is to apply a small amount of heat to it just before pushing the connector on. When the cable has been in the ground for a while, the jacket becomes rather rigid and hard. The heat softens it up enough to push the connector on. With RG-11, you need to push that connector on until it bottoms out. There should be a few "ring" marks on the connector itself. Those rings give you an indication as to where the connector will bottom out. Place the connector next to the cable with the ring at the end of the dielectric. Then make a thumbnail mark on the cable jacket where the back of the connector is, then you push the connector to that mark. That is one way to make sure you have it bottomed out.

 

To me, that doesn't look like .412 cable. It hasn't been used in 20+ years. A RG-11 connector wouldn't go on to a .412 cable since it is bigger in diameter than RG-11. The closest cable in size to RG-11 is the .320 cable. It may just be that. I agree that there is an aluminum sheath on there, so that make me think that it is .320. You need a small coring tool to strip the QR320, but the same crimper that crimps RG-11 can be used to put the connector on the cable.

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post #11 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post


Just curious, what is the most common cable(s) (style and size) used in local neighborhoods by the cable folks? Same question for the customer drops?

 

In older plants, .500 and .750 cable was used. The newer rebuilt systems use .625 and .875 cables. Those 4 are typical foam dielectric cables. Some systems use MC.650 and MC.750 cables which have the discs for the dielectric. Both types have their advantages and disadvantages. When cable companies started using fiber, the thicker 1.00 and 1.125 cables are rarely used anymore.

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post #12 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 02:20 PM
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All insightful responses. But, funny that no one asked...
1) where did you "find" the cable?
2) why do you want to use the cable?
3) what is the source/destination device at each end?

There is probably a simpler and practical solution.
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post #13 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

With nearly 30 years experience in CATV I have yet to see a type 'N' connector used except perhaps an occasional BNC used for video.

its been a long time time since I had anything to do with CATV hardline cables but IIRC Type N connectors are 50Ω and should not be used with 75Ω cables.

Just curious, what is the most common cable(s) (style and size) used in local neighborhoods by the cable folks? Same question for the customer drops?
Here's a quick reference: http://www.auspicecorp.com/product_catalog/tw_docs/TWS%20Sec_G.pdf


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post #14 of 29 Old 12-15-2013, 10:18 PM
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That catalog is copyright 1996. I have to wonder if they can still supply .412 products.

Last year, I had to repair a cut, underground .540 trunkline. I called several CATV product distributors but no one I spoke to knew that there ever had been a .540 hardline product. I was able to roughly core the wire with a .500 coring tool, digging out the thin layer of dielectric left behind with a tiny screwdriver, but since I never found a supplier for .540 connectors, I had to drill out .500 connectors with a 9/16" drill, but I still couldn't develop adequate seizure tension of the aluminum sheath until I cut some longitudinal slits in it so it could be compressed when I wrench-tightened the connector assembly.
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post #15 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

That catalog is copyright 1996. I have to wonder if they can still supply .412 products.

Last year, I had to repair a cut, underground .540 trunkline. I called several CATV product distributors but no one I spoke to knew that there ever had been a .540 hardline product. I was able to roughly core the wire with a .500 coring tool, digging out the thin layer of dielectric left behind with a tiny screwdriver, but since I never found a supplier for .540 connectors, I had to drill out .500 connectors with a 9/16" drill, but I still couldn't develop adequate seizure tension of the aluminum sheath until I cut some longitudinal slits in it so it could be compressed when I wrench-tightened the connector assembly.
.540 is a QR size. That's a pretty available size. Here in Olympia there are thousands of feet of it still in use. Pretty much all of Thurston county is .860 QR trunk and .540 QR feeder. As to .412 it appears Gilbert still has some. .412 is mostly abandoned but there is still some out there especially in small systems. If you need special parts go post on http://www.cabl.com/ where all the old Cable Dawgs hang out. It appears PPC also still supports most sizes: http://www.ppc-online.com/broadband/group.php?id=55


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post #16 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 08:41 AM
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I vaguely remember someone telling me that the QR .540 had a thinner aluminum jacket than did the 40 year old stuff I was repairing, but I don't remember whether I ever actually had a QR fitting in my hand. Does the cable end of QR get prepped or "dressed" to about the same proportions as the conventional hardline?
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post #17 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 10:27 AM
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QR540 gets prepped the same as other hardline cables, but the difference is you need the aluminum sheath and the outer jacket cored to the proper length. The QR connector not only grips the sheath, but the jacket as well. Most coring tools will strip the jacket and sheath to the proper length.

 

I did fail to mention in one of my posts about QR cables (.540, .860, 1.125). That was my bad... I work in a system that has been partially rebuilt two different times and upgraded as well, so it has .500, QR540, .625, .750, QR860 and .875 cable on the poles. We even have some .412 that is in older apartment buildings, but we replace it with .625 when we find it. It makes my job interesting when I have to stock 7 different size connectors on my truck. What makes it worse is that at times I cover an old Adelphia system that has MC cable in it, so I have to stock those sizes as well. I wish I would have taken stock in connector and cable manufacturing companies years ago.

 

Looking back at the OP, he states that it was installed by Comcast 3-5 years ago. That is the era of QR320 cable. The proper PPC connector is EX320QR. The proper coring tool is G-SCT-F320-QR.

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post #18 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cableguy Greg View Post

QR540 gets prepped the same as other hardline cables, but the difference is you need the aluminum sheath and the outer jacket cored to the proper length. The QR connector not only grips the sheath, but the jacket as well. Most coring tools will strip the jacket and sheath to the proper length...


In the situation I encountered earlier this year, the challenge would have been to put that connector onto "regular" .540 hardline, which I had been advised by a colleague who claims to have tried to do so that was not practical to put those connectors on the old (very old) .540 that was installed in this market back around 1980, give or take.
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post #19 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cableguy Greg View Post

QR540 gets prepped the same as other hardline cables, but the difference is you need the aluminum sheath and the outer jacket cored to the proper length. The QR connector not only grips the sheath, but the jacket as well. Most coring tools will strip the jacket and sheath to the proper length.

I did fail to mention in one of my posts about QR cables (.540, .860, 1.125). That was my bad... I work in a system that has been partially rebuilt two different times and upgraded as well, so it has .500, QR540, .625, .750, QR860 and .875 cable on the poles. We even have some .412 that is in older apartment buildings, but we replace it with .625 when we find it. It makes my job interesting when I have to stock 7 different size connectors on my truck. What makes it worse is that at times I cover an old Adelphia system that has MC cable in it, so I have to stock those sizes as well. I wish I would have taken stock in connector and cable manufacturing companies years ago.

Looking back at the OP, he states that it was installed by Comcast 3-5 years ago. That is the era of QR320 cable. The proper PPC connector is EX320QR. The proper coring tool is G-SCT-F320-QR.

You realize he is using a ruler and it is bigger than .320 right..? It appears to me that it is .715 QR cable but I am not there to see it person to validate it. Either way he butchered it and someone with the correct coring tools will need to terminate it properly and put a connector on it with a pin-f connector or a tap to make it usable and not leak. I wish it had some A/C on the line to light the OP up....eek.gif

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post #20 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

... he is using a ruler and it is bigger than .320...

It doesn't look bigger to me. In the top picture, the top horizontal edge of the mutilated dielectric falls between 5.2 and 5.3 cm, and the lower edge falls between 6.0 and 6.1 cm, so .8 cm times .3937 cm/in = .315", which is close enough to .320" for the government work and for cable scavengers.
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post #21 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

 

Thank you all for your thoughtful and informed suggestions for terminating the mystery cable pictured in my first post.  I’m still studying all of the information offered.  For now, I want to acknowledge your responses, provide some more detail and answer some questions that came up. 

 

By way of introduction, I am a homeowner, but I’m pretty handy in a lot of trades.  I make my living primarily by managing and maintaining a number of apartment buildings.  However this project concerns my own home.

 

Where did the wire come from, what am I trying to accomplish, etc.:  The property that my house and shop sit on is steeply sloped.  My home is on one of two flat spots.  It sits at the top of the hill and my shop sits on the other flat spot at the bottom.  The house is only about 30 cable feet from the pole, but it is about another 250 cable feet (down the slope through woods, blackberries and underbrush) from the house to the shop. 

 

About 3-5 years ago (I think-time flies) I finally got cable.  The Comcast supervisor basically said that I was on my own getting the cable down the hill to the shop, but he would run a heavy cable form the pole to the house and give me enough cable to get to the shop, if I thought I could hook it up.  I’m now semi-retired and I’m just now trying to do the connection to get TV in the shop. 

 

The cable is laid on the hill.  I have tested it with a couple of makeshift connections and it appears that at least some of the signal will make it to the shop.  Obviously, there is the possibility for a lot of signal loss, and I would like to really get the connections right.  

 

How was the cable in the picture prepped:  I used a regular Ideal RG 11 stripping tool, then cut the shielding with a utility knife and peeled it back.  I had to get between the shielding and the insulator in order to get the shielding loose and that’s why the insulator looks so beat up. 

 

What is the diameter of the cable:  My calipers say .3975.

 

How did Comcast terminate the cable at the house:  I went out into the bushes to check this out and took a couple of pictures that are shown below.  Essentially they used a large F Connector which fit into a barrel and was attached to the RG 6 coming out of (and running through) the house.  I plan on putting my splitter at this connection. 

 

After reading through these posts, I’m guessing the existing connector is a screw on type.  I use compression connectors at the apartment buildings I maintain and was hoping to use a similarly high quality, low loss arrangement on this project. 

 

Again, thanks for all the help.  Sorry I am late in replying, I was away for the weekend.  I will definitely post again when I start trying solutions!

 

John

 

Edit:  The copper conductor appears to be 12 AWG.

 

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post #22 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jheiderich View Post

...What is the diameter of the cable:  My calipers say .3975.

The diameter that defines hardline cable is the diameter of the aluminum sheath, not of the plastic jacket. I'm betting that is .320".
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post #23 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks AntAltMike. The diameter of the AU sheath is indeed .320".

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post #24 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 04:28 PM
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This might be the coring tool your cable uses. It costs $94 plus $17.14 shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-Ripley-CST-320-7cqrf-Coring-Stripping-Tool-F-type-CST3320-7-CQRF-/370634674000?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564b8c4f50



Since you say this wire is laying on the ground, you can save yourself a lot of time and money by simply buying a 250' length of pre-connectorized RG-11, and for that matter, since 250' isn't all that long, your needs may be met with cheap, easy to work with RG-6.

Here's a 250 foot pre-connectorized buryable length of RG-11 for $59.99 including shipping, and you can buy longer lengths from the same seller for another $10 for each additional 50 feet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250-FT-RG-11-COAX-UNDERGROUND-CABLE-/161109769101?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2582e3fb8d

!BoreY!!!2k~$%28KGrHqMOKisEuZLMURsgBLoWh6JBG!~~_12.JPG
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post #25 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

... he is using a ruler and it is bigger than .320...

It doesn't look bigger to me. In the top picture, the top horizontal edge of the mutilated dielectric falls between 5.2 and 5.3 cm, and the lower edge falls between 6.0 and 6.1 cm, so .8 cm times .3937 cm/in = .315", which is close enough to .320" for the government work and for cable scavengers.

Tks, I did not look close enough and did not pay attention to the mm scale.

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post #26 of 29 Old 12-16-2013, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Great idea on the pre-connectorized cable. 

 

I should have known that the answer lurked somewhere on ebay. 

 

But... I also should have been more detailed about the cable routing.  MOST of the cable is laying on the ground in the woods.  Unfortunately, the first 25' travels through PE conduit buried underneath the lawn between the house and the hill.  That conduit already has Cat 5 phone wire in it and there would not be enough room to get the RG-11 AND the connector through.  However, if I can't figure out the connector issue, my work around will be that I dig a trench and and lay the pre-connectorized stuff as you are suggesting. 

 

The reason I am reluctant to use RG-6 is because the Comcast tech said that, given signal strength at the house, the distance to the shop, and the attenuation resulting from the splitter, the RG-6 would not work.  I don't know if he was right, but I know he was sincere in the belief because he went to the trouble to install the RG-11 (or whatever it is) from the pole to the house with the idea that that would help get a good signal down to the shop. 

 

Would the RG-6 be a practical alternative if I put an amplifier between the splitter at the house and the RG-6 run? 

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post #27 of 29 Old 12-30-2013, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

 

I wanted to follow up with what I finally found to be the situation with the cable pictured in my first post. 

 

The cable turned out to be QR 320  as several of you suggested.  I believe it is the QR 320 JCA seen here:  http://www.commscope.com/catalog/broadband/2147483659/product_details.aspx?id=47071

 

The tool that I need to prep it is the Ripley CST 320/7cqrf Coring & Stripping Tool.  It can be seen in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zRgVeojVfs.

 

At this point, I have obtained the proper f connectors, but not the coring tool.  Since I'm not in a big hurry, I'm waiting for a good deal on ebay. 

 

Thanks again to all who responded. 

 

John

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post #28 of 29 Old 12-31-2013, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jheiderich View Post


The tool that I need to prep it is the Ripley CST 320/7cqrf Coring & Stripping Tool.  It can be seen in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zRgVeojVfs.

At this point, I have obtained the proper f connectors, but not the coring tool.  Since I'm not in a big hurry, I'm waiting for a good deal on ebay. 

Be prepared for a long wait. The only way someone will be selling one cheap is if they stole it from their employer. There are lots of .500 and .625 coring tools available cheap on eBay, and I have bought several of them, because those products have been around for about 40 years and have actually become obsolete for many users, but .320 is a contemporary, commercial specialty product. If you ever have the opportunity to wave down a cable TV truck driving by your house or in your neighborhood, you could offer to give the guy $20 to $40 to core them for you and get it done cheaper than you will buy the tool for, but then you wouldn't have the tool for future use.
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post #29 of 29 Old 12-31-2013, 09:53 AM
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Check @ http://www.cabl.com/ for a 'spare' connector and/or tool. QR .320 is about the only size prep tools I don't have or I'd rent or sell you mine.


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