Conflict with WUSA and WJLA ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi - Hope this is the right place to post this. I installed an OTA antenna on my house - AntennasDirect DB-4 with a Winegard Pre Amplifier - I figured I needed one when I get this working to push the signal through my coax in my house. Everything seems to work great and can grab most of the channels - except for WJLA (Ch 7 Virtual / VHF) here in the DC area. It looks like WUSA is also on VHF according to Antenna Finder and is actually in the exact same direction (maybe even the same tower). I'm working on some approaches including using a UVSJ connector and hooking up two antennas (also have problems with that, but, different subject).  If I direct connect a directional antenna that I got and returned, I can pick up WJLA just fine, but, with the antenna mounted on my roof outside and picking up WUSA perfectly, I can't get WJLA?

 

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post #2 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 01:22 PM
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Which exact antenna model?
Can you post a link to your tvfool report please?
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post #3 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 02:43 PM
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WUSA is on channel 9 and WJLA is on channel 7. So they will not conflict with each other. You probably have some other problem such as multipath, overload or weak signal. AS above post your TVFool info for recommendations.
Also the DB4 is a UHF antenna. Channels 7 and 9 are VHF so you are using a suboptimal antenna for them.
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 03:30 PM
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I hated when WUSA went to VHF. On UHF they were the strongest station for me. But once they switched to VHF, they became the weakest.

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post #5 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I hated when WUSA went to VHF. On UHF they were the strongest station for me. But once they switched to VHF, they became the weakest.
Does your antenna have good VHF capability? Both WUSA and WJLA increased power to improve their VHF reception. Consider a Winegard 7696 or Antennacraft HBU-33. And possible Winegard LNA-200 amp. Or perhaps you are in a problem location for RF9.
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post #6 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's my TV Fool map, which is what I'm guessing you mean:

 

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

 

The antenna model is DB4 from AntennaDirect.

 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=DB4&ss=9295

 

I can pick up WJLA at night though evidently (been testing this here and there)  - but, it comes in choppy. It maybe just the fact that I have a dedicated UHF antenna, but, the fact that WUSA on VHF comes in perfect causes me to question that theory.

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post #7 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 06:49 PM
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Any VHF reception with an antenna designed for UHF is purely incidental & unpredictable. A proper antenna should easily catch both 7 & 9 if within 40-50 miles of DC. Both stations were granted blowtorch power allotments shortly after the digital conversion.

Where do you live?
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post #8 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Does your antenna have good VHF capability? Both WUSA and WJLA increased power to improve their VHF reception. Consider a Winegard 7696 or Antennacraft HBU-33. And possible Winegard LNA-200 amp. Or perhaps you are in a problem location for RF9.

I use two combined Squareshooter antennas. I can still get WJLA in all year round but WUSA can be unpredictable once the foilage is off the trees. Although when did they increase their power? I have not noticed any issues recently with WUSA and usually that is not the case this time of year. I am using a Roamio Basic for reception now. But it is only a secondary receiver since I use a Roamio Pro on FIOS to receive my primary content.

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post #9 of 28 Old 01-15-2014, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I use two combined Squareshooter antennas. I can still get WJLA in all year round but WUSA can be unpredictable once the foilage is off the trees. Although when did they increase their power? I have not noticed any issues recently with WUSA and usually that is not the case this time of year. I am using a Roamio Basic for reception now. But it is only a secondary receiver since I use a Roamio Pro on FIOS to receive my primary content.
The Squareshooter is good for UHF, but bad for VHF. That is the problem. You need an antenna that is designed to receive both VHF and UHF. An Antennacraft HBU-22 or 33 would be ideal, or a Winegard 7694 or 7696. And amp if needed, such as Channel Master 7778 or Winegard LNA-200.
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You need to re-consider your choice to try to use a UHF-only antenna to receive VHF. That's an unwise decision in many cases.

If VHF signal powers are moderate, you can usually attach the VHF element from the C2's VHF upgrade kit to your DB4 and solve the problem that way. Otherwise, you'dd need to either ADD a separate VHF antenna or you will need to start over and replace the DB4 with a suitable combo.
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post #11 of 28 Old 01-16-2014, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Although when did they increase their power?
Both WJLA & WUSA increased to a generous 52,000 watt allotment a few months after the digital transition. They both started off with digital power levels that didn't come close to matching their previous analog coverage area.

A small combo antenna should have no problem seeing either in Woodbridge. They are the only major 2 DC stations I can get with rabbit ears at my mom's place in Occoquan.
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post #12 of 28 Old 01-16-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

The Squareshooter is good for UHF, but bad for VHF. That is the problem. You need an antenna that is designed to receive both VHF and UHF. An Antennacraft HBU-22 or 33 would be ideal, or a Winegard 7694 or 7696. And amp if needed, such as Channel Master 7778 or Winegard LNA-200.

That's not happening in my case. I went through a dozen indoor antennas until they finally came out with an outdoor antenna that I could put outside my condo that would be unobtrusive. So ten years ago I put up the Square shooters. I have a waiver but I cannot put up anything else. And I need to remove them if I ever move. The Squareshooter is still designed to work at the frequencies of channel 7 and 9 but not for lower VHF. Plus OTA is not my primary source for TV.

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post #13 of 28 Old 01-16-2014, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Both WJLA & WUSA increased to a generous 52,000 watt allotment a few months after the digital transition. They both started off with digital power levels that didn't come close to matching their previous analog coverage area.

A small combo antenna should have no problem seeing either in Woodbridge. They are the only major 2 DC stations I can get with rabbit ears at my mom's place in Occoquan.

My problem is that I'm surrounded by Hills and buildings. The Squareshooter one of the few antennas I tried at the time in 2004 that could pick up the DC stations. And that is only if it gets up high enough. If the antennas were a few feet lower, half the channels would be blocked. It's terrible here for radio and cellular too.The Squareshooter was the only antenna in 2004 that I could put up that would be approved for me. Since it was similar in size to a DirecTV dish at the time. People still call it a dish for some reason, even though it's pointed north. I actually got lucky with the Digital transition when 7 and 9 switched to VHF that the Square shooter was actually rated for those frequencies. Because in 2004 that was not my concern since everything was UHF around here.

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post #14 of 28 Old 01-16-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

That's not happening in my case. I went through a dozen indoor antennas until they finally came out with an outdoor antenna that I could put outside my condo that would be unobtrusive. So ten years ago I put up the Square shooters. I have a waiver but I cannot put up anything else. And I need to remove them if I ever move. The Squareshooter is still designed to work at the frequencies of channel 7 and 9 but not for lower VHF. Plus OTA is not my primary source for TV.
Well Winegard now has a new version of a discreet style antenna, the Flatwave Air. It has their new low noise amp built in, and has gotten good reviews. It may even perform better on HiVHF, and is probably an improved replacement for the Squareshooter. It is also a discreet flat panel antenna, and similar in size. You could always give it a try. It has recently been on sale from Solid Signal for $79.99 with free shipping.
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-16-2014, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I think adding the C2 reflector will be the route I go - Some great pics from here show how it is done:

 

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=7001

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhatt2 View Post

I think adding the C2 reflector will be the route I go - Some great pics from here show how it is done:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=7001

See https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23201192/Adding%20VHF%20reception%20to%20Antennas%20Direct%20UHF%20antennas.pdf for my tip sheet.

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post #17 of 28 Old 05-04-2014, 08:26 AM
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I have an Antennas Direct C2-V-CJM ClearStream 2-V which is suitable for both VHF and UHF. I live in Woodbridge, VA and I can receive WUSA (9.1) perfectly, but cannot get WJLA or 7.1 at all. I am even getting some Baltimore stations. I do not understand this since they have essentially identical transmitter specs and are at the same location. Anyone have any ideas here?

 

Thanks,

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post #18 of 28 Old 05-04-2014, 09:05 AM
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Probably one of the following:

1) Unfortunate receiving antenna location that places the antenna in a "dead" spot for that station: Move antenna and try again.

2) Interference from local FM stations. Install one or two FM filters in series and try again.

3) Interference from a very local electrical or electronic device (power lines, power supplies, LED lighting, CFLs, computers, etc). Try relocating the antenna first, after that it get more complicated.
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post #19 of 28 Old 05-04-2014, 02:50 PM
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I noticed today that WUSA is out completely for me. While WJLA is still fine. Ever since WUSA went from UHF to VHF it went from one of my strongest stations to one of my weakest.

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post #20 of 28 Old 05-04-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhatt2 View Post

Here's my TV Fool map, which is what I'm guessing you mean:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90


That is the starting page. You need the link for your TV Fool report page.
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post #21 of 28 Old 08-13-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/1512111/conflict-with-wusa-and-wjla#post_24216608" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>aaronwt</strong> <a href="/t/1512111/conflict-with-wusa-and-wjla#post_24216608"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
I hated when WUSA went to VHF. On UHF they were the strongest station for me. But once they switched to VHF, they became the weakest.</div>
</div>
Does your antenna have good VHF capability? Both WUSA and WJLA increased power to improve their VHF reception. Consider a Winegard 7696 or Antennacraft HBU-33. And possible Winegard LNA-200 amp. Or perhaps you are in a problem location for RF9.
If you have an indoor antenna for OTA (I have two RCA indoor, one rabbit ears and one flat box) what then -- I get everything but channel 7 and channel 9 in my apartment because they are VHF instead of UHF. My old rabbit ears antenna that broke got both of them! What gives?
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post #22 of 28 Old 08-13-2014, 01:26 PM
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Question Best Indoor Antenna for Channel7 WJLA and Channel 9 WUSA?

I have two brand new RCA indoor antennas for OTA reception (one rabbit ears and one flat box) -- I can scan in all local channels except the ABC and CBS affiliates -- everything but channel 7 and channel 9 in my apartment because they are now VHF instead of UHF where most channels are. My old rabbit ears antenna that broke got both of them! What gives? Is there a better indoor antenna to buy. My new antennas are supposed to get HDTV/VHF/UHF all.
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post #23 of 28 Old 08-13-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ebonymous View Post
I have two brand new RCA indoor antennas for OTA reception (one rabbit ears and one flat box) -- I can scan in all local channels except the ABC and CBS affiliates -- everything but channel 7 and channel 9 in my apartment because they are now VHF instead of UHF where most channels are. My old rabbit ears antenna that broke got both of them! What gives? Is there a better indoor antenna to buy. My new antennas are supposed to get HDTV/VHF/UHF all.

Yeah, that's been the common case for five years. The flat panel antennas are mostly useless for VHF, you need one with "rabbit ears" along with some luck or skill.

You'll need to post your TVFool plot for analysis if you desire specific recommendations.
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post #24 of 28 Old 08-13-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post


I use two combined Squareshooter antennas. I can still get WJLA in all year round but WUSA can be unpredictable once the foilage is off the trees. Although when did they increase their power? I have not noticed any issues recently with WUSA and usually that is not the case this time of year. I am using a Roamio Basic for reception now. But it is only a secondary receiver since I use a Roamio Pro on FIOS to receive my primary content.
I remember when the Square Shooter first came out, the polar plot that accompanied it had a wierd "squint angle" for VHF high that was 45 degrees off the centerline or perpendicular axis. If aaronwt is still following this, he might try misaiming one square shooter 45 degrees to the left or right.

Also, if anyone is in a harsh multipath environment and has trouble optimizing for both 7 and 9 but has found separate sweet spots for each, two VHF antennas can be economically combined using a Channel Master channel 7 or 9 Jointenna.
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
I remember when the Square Shooter first came out, the polar plot that accompanied it had a wierd "squint angle" for VHF high that was 45 degrees off the centerline or perpendicular axis. If aaronwt is still following this, he might try misaiming one square shooter 45 degrees to the left or right.

Also, if anyone is in a harsh multipath environment and has trouble optimizing for both 7 and 9 but has found separate sweet spots for each, two VHF antennas can be economically combined using a Channel Master channel 7 or 9 Jointenna.
Back when they switched to VHF I tried placing them in dozens of ways to get the best signal. In the end I could get channel 7 reliably but channel 9 has issues during part of the year. If I was in an upper level condo I would have no issues. But in the lower level condo I have the square shooters as high as possible which still isn't completely above the surrounding hills. Fortunately OTA is not my primary reception.

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post #26 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Back when they switched to VHF I tried placing them in dozens of ways to get the best signal. In the end I could get channel 7 reliably but channel 9 has issues during part of the year. If I was in an upper level condo I would have no issues. But in the lower level condo I have the square shooters as high as possible which still isn't completely above the surrounding hills. Fortunately OTA is not my primary reception.
I understand you may be limited to a flat panel style antenna because of the condo rules. But the Squareshooter is only optimized for UHF, and has limited capability for VHF. Which is why you may have issues with 7 or 9. But there is a newer flat panel version from Winegard, the Flatwave Air. It supposedly has better VHF capability than the Squareshooter, and also has a built in low noise amp. It may be worth a try, and sometimes Solid Signal has it on sale for around $75.
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post #27 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Digital Rules

Both WJLA & WUSA increased to a generous 52,000 watt allotment a few months after the digital transition. They both started off with digital power levels that didn't come close to matching their previous analog coverage area.

A small combo antenna should have no problem seeing either in Woodbridge. They are the only major 2 DC stations I can get with rabbit ears at my mom's place in Occoquan.


My problem is that I'm surrounded by Hills and buildings. The Squareshooter one of the few antennas I tried at the time in 2004 that could pick up the DC stations. And that is only if it gets up high enough. If the antennas were a few feet lower, half the channels would be blocked. It's terrible here for radio and cellular too.The Squareshooter was the only antenna in 2004 that I could put up that would be approved for me. Since it was similar in size to a DirecTV dish at the time. People still call it a dish for some reason, even though it's pointed north. I actually got lucky with the Digital transition when 7 and 9 switched to VHF that the Square shooter was actually rated for those frequencies. Because in 2004 that was not my concern since everything was UHF around here.

since when can a HOA board override the FCC on antenna reception issues ?
Not in my lifetime, at least....

Put up what you NEED for a proper VHF antenna and let the HOA board get stuffed.
And yes - it IS that simple. It's up to them to convince the FCC their restrictions are Ok - not you.

Do some digging at the FCC site for OTARD.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Being A Beacon of Knowledge in the darkness of FUD
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
since when can a HOA board override the FCC on antenna reception issues ?
Not in my lifetime, at least....

Put up what you NEED for a proper VHF antenna and let the HOA board get stuffed.
And yes - it IS that simple. It's up to them to convince the FCC their restrictions are Ok - not you.

Do some digging at the FCC site for OTARD.
An HOA is allowed to put restrictions up. This is nothing new. An owner doesn't necessarily have free reign to put up what they want, where they want. I've seen people try it here and end up with bills over $1k for removal.

As it is, if I ever move then I will have some serious removal bills too since the equipment needs to be taken down if I ever sell. And everything needs to be restored to the previous condition. I remember doing a bunch of research into it in 2001 before I put a DirecTV Dish up and in 2004 before I put my antennas up. PArt of my problem is also that I am in a basement condo. I already have the tallest mast that I was allowed in use to get my antennas as high as possible.

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