Sinclair Developing Next Generation Broadcast Satandard - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Says it could be ready in a year
http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/73516/sinclair-developing-nextgen-tv-standard

sorry for the messed up title should be Standard
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 03:55 PM
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With Sinclair, the "Satan..." part might be appropriate!
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 09:06 AM
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Wow, this bring back memories. Wasn't Sinclair the driving force behind not getting 8-VSB adopted as the OTA broadcast standard in the U.S.? I seem to remember a specific individual (whose name escapes me now) who was VERY vocal about that and took a lot of heat from a lot of people, personally and professionally.
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I seem to remember a specific individual (whose name escapes me now) who was VERY vocal about that and took a lot of heat from a lot of people, personally and professionally.

If you're referring to a forum member, was it Bob Miller? He was obsessive about using COFDM vs. 8VSB to the point where became comical.
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 12:38 PM
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^^^^ Yes. That's the person. He was extremely vocal on Usenet and yes, it was comical the way he carried on. If he had a good point to make it got lost in all of the rhetoric.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-27-2014, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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i am looking forward to see what Sinclair comes up with for a standard,
if it makes the repack easier and better with bandwidth for each station and of course HEVC,
it would be smarter to have a switch to a new technology rather than just a repack,
of course everything would be much easier if it was know which stations were moving to VHF,going off the air,or sharing with another station
it seems like it would be a lot harder to do an auction and repack with the existing ATSC,
if stations are going to be repacked more tightly does that mean that every station has to have some equipment replaced,
how else would stations be able to be closer together,
there will never be a transition like the analog to digital again just switches to new technology
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-28-2014, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

If you're referring to a forum member, was it Bob Miller? He was obsessive about using COFDM vs. 8VSB to the point where became comical.

He is the one, we had many heated exchanges. It appears Sinclair is still stuck on COFDM which has its attributes, mainly the ability to work with an antenna in motion. The down side is for the same coverage area COFDM requires twice the power of 8VSB.

IMO, Sinclair is misguided, I think there is little chance of broadcasters competing in mobile (wireless) data business in this day and age. They MAY have been successful 13 to 15 years ago but not anymore.
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-28-2014, 02:44 PM
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Sinclair aren't alone. South Korea, which is using ATSC 8VSB for current HD broadcasts, has also been trialling DVB-T2 for 4K test broadcasts. Could be that it makes sense as it is a second generation modulation system that is a "real world" standard (used extensively in Sweden and the UK) so for trial purposes it delivers a high-enough bitrate for HEVC 4K? (Possibly even H264 4K)

In the UK we're running our T2 muxes at 40.25Mbs in an 8MHz channel for H264 HD (and now one H264 SD) channels.

Japan is looking past T2 techniques and considering MIMO (which Europe looked at for T2 but thought was a step too far - requiring new, active, aerials)

I too think mobile is a bit of a red herring - but COFDM is pretty universal for terrestrial TV outside the US, Canada, Mexico and South Korea. Everyone else is using DVB or ISDB COFDM systems (or the Chinese standard - also COFDM I think).
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-28-2014, 03:09 PM
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Yeah... the US hasn't embraced the metric system either. tongue.gif
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Yeah... the US hasn't embraced the metric system either. tongue.gif
People are slow to change, PBS and public broadcasters used to air quite a bit of programming in regards to the metric system but there was little interest in it.

OTOH, the US was an early adopter of OTA digital and as such our system will be superseded by those that come after us. IMO, it will be many years before we see another broadcast standard.
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

OTOH, the US was an early adopter of OTA digital and as such our system will be superseded by those that come after us. IMO, it will be many years before we see another broadcast standard.

Sort of. From memory the UK and Sweden adopted OTA digital at almost exactly the same time as the US with formal service launches second half of 1998. (Trials had been ongoing since the mid-90s.)

Think the key difference was that in the UK and Sweden we launched 16:9 SD (DVB-T modulation with MPEG2 video encoding and MP2/AC3 audio encoding) back then, rather than going for HD (mainly because we were nowhere near a commercial environment that could fund HD production at the costs required back then)

As a result we were able to introduce second gen modulation and video/audio encoding schemes (DVB-T2 with H264 video and AAC audio) with the launch of HD OTA (around 2007/8ish) Some countries went HD with DVB-T (but H264 and AAC audio) as they were later introducing digital OTA - so were able to take advantage of improved codecs, but were too early to take advantage of newer modulation schemes. (Norway for example - who are DVB-T with H264+AAC)

Now analogue has switched off here we have the following set-up :

5 x DVB-T muxes (24-27Mbs SD MPEG2)
1 x DVB-T mux (8Mbs SD MPEG2) (low bitrate, low power local TV channel in some regions using QPSK rather than QAM for greater coverage area)
3 x DVB-T2 mux (40.25Mbs HD+SD H264) (1 yet to launch but allocated spectrum)

(Different set-up in Northern Ireland)

One of the useful features of COFDM is the ability to run single frequency networks (i.e. the same network on the same frequency from multiple transmitters) - which is being used to improve coverage in some areas.
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Yeah... the US hasn't embraced the metric system either. tongue.gif

The UK hasn't fully either... We still use miles for road distances, pints for beer, and most people use stones and pounds for body weight. However Celsius rules for temperature, and although most of us think in pounds and ounces for food weight, and gallons (non-US...) for petrol (aka gas), we buy these in kilos and litres.
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post #13 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Sort of. From memory the UK and Sweden adopted OTA digital at almost exactly the same time as the US with formal service launches second half of 1998. (Trials had been ongoing since the mid-90s.)

We put our first ATSC 8VSB transmitter on the air in November 1998. The other 7 transmitters covering the state were connected by terrestrial analog microwave that was soon replaced by a 145 mbps Alcatel Sonnet digital system.

Was there anyone that actually manufactured a COFDM DVB-T system using our 6 MHz channel width?

IIRC, a 8 MHz DVB-T system was used in the second round of the FCC test. I remember the COFDM supporters cried foul because the test units had wideband RF amps on the input stage of the test receivers. I contacted the tech folks at PBS and told them there was a number of folks using the RCA DTC-100 with wideband pre-amps in front of the receiver and were not having any problems. At any rate, its all water under the bridge.

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post #14 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

We put our first ATSC 8VSB transmitter on the air in November 1998. The other 7 transmitters covering the state were connected by terrestrial analog microwave that was soon replaced by a 145 mbps Alcatel Sonnet digital system.
Yep - that matches my memory. We launched DVB-T formally as a service in the UK in mid-Nov 1998 (I've got the 8th in my memory, but Wikipedia suggests the 15th). Fibre distribution was used for all DVB-T services to the transmitters. These days there is a satellite backup for some services, and for an interim period there was some satellite distribution for a temporary additional DVB-T2 HD mux in some regions prior to analogue switch off.
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Was there anyone that actually manufactured a COFDM DVB-T system using our 6 MHz channel width?

I think so. ISTR that DVB-T (and now DVB-T2 in some cases) is being used in Taiwan, Trinidad and Tobago, Panama and Colombia - which were 6MHz NTSC-M areas. Japan uses ISDB-T (also COFDM-based), and a newer version of that that appears to be becoming a de facto standard for much of South America. (I suspect that the next-gen Japanese OTA system will be more advanced than DVB-T2, and use MIMO-style tech - including simultaneous Horizontal and Vertical polarisation and active aerials/antennae - to maximise bitrate for 8K SuperHiVision in expectation of the 2020 Olympics being covered in this format)

My PC-based DVB-T/T2 receiver system offers 6MHz, 7MHz and 8MHz reception modes in its config.
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

If you're referring to a forum member, was it Bob Miller? He was obsessive about using COFDM vs. 8VSB to the point where became comical.

He was everywhere! I posted in a thread on Nvidia's forum about HDTV reception and out of nowhere I got a long personal message from him explaining how he proved that 8VSB will be a complete failure.

NOW: my post on AVS Forum.
NEXT: someone else's post on AVS Forum.
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post #16 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 12:27 PM
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^^^^ similar story here. He was definitely a character.
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Was there anyone that actually manufactured a COFDM DVB-T system using our 6 MHz channel width?
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

I think so.

My mistake, sorry, that should have been: Was there anyone that actually manufactured a COFDM DVB-T system using our 6 MHz channel width during the second round of the FCC test?

Also, I was not very clear about our November 1998 start up. We started with MPEG-2, 16 x 9 1080i. It was a loop played by the PBS center from a Sencore server. IIRC, much of the source material was from Sony HD-Cams. The video was distributed via DVB-S satellite, PBS continues to use this method of distribution but they have switched to DVB-S2 and H.264.

We did procure our own HD-Cams and encoders not long afterwards and by the early 2000's we had procured a hybrid SD/HD mobile unit.
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-29-2014, 04:17 PM
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Channel bandwidth is very easy to change in DVB-T. All you have to do is change the master clock rate. These DVB-T dongles are capable of 2/3/4/5/6/7/8 MHz channels.

http://www.hides.com.tw/product_cg74469_eng.html

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post #19 of 24 Old 01-31-2014, 05:53 AM
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I've been experimenting with a Software Defined Radio (SDR) DVB-T transmitter and receiver. An open source implementation of DVB-T has just been released for GnuRadio.

https://github.com/BogdanDIA/gr-dvbt

And the author's blog is here.

http://yo3iiu.ro/blog/?p=1191

I have it working with the bladeRF SDR (http://nuand.com) and here are some test results.

GnuRadio DVB-T 8 MHz transmitter flow graph.

dvbtflowgraph.png

Transmit QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam16.png

Transmit QAM-64 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam64.png

Receive (file loopback) QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam16rx.png

Receive (file loopback with some Gaussian noise) QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam16noise3m.png

Receive (file loopback with more Gaussian noise) QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam16noise6m.png

Receive (file loopback with a lot of Gaussian noise) QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam16noise9m.png

Receive (file loopback with some Gaussian noise) QAM-64 constellation and spectrum in 6 MHz mode.

6mhzqam64noise3m.png

Receive (bladeRF external loopback) QAM-16 constellation and spectrum in 8 MHz mode.

8mhzqam16.png

Receive (bladeRF external loopback) QAM-16 constellation (line link) and spectrum in 8 MHz mode.

8mhzqam16line.png

Ron
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post #20 of 24 Old 01-31-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

I've been experimenting with a Software Defined Radio (SDR) DVB-T transmitter and receiver. An open source implementation of DVB-T has just been released for GnuRadio.

Interesting.

Ron, just curious, noticed you do a lot of RF work, have you switched from video compression engineering to RF engineering? If so, what field?
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post #21 of 24 Old 01-31-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

I've been experimenting with a Software Defined Radio (SDR) DVB-T transmitter and receiver. An open source implementation of DVB-T has just been released for GnuRadio.

Ron

Interesting stuff Ron. I've been using a couple of "DVB" sticks as USB SDR receivers for a bunch of stuff (ISDB, Radio Mic and IFB/PL - aka Clean Feed/Talkback reception) Had seen there was a COFDM DAB implementation, but hadn't seen the COFDM DVB-T stuff in Gnu radio.
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post #22 of 24 Old 01-31-2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Also, I was not very clear about our November 1998 start up. We started with MPEG-2, 16 x 9 1080i. It was a loop played by the PBS center from a Sencore server. IIRC, much of the source material was from Sony HD-Cams. The video was distributed via DVB-S satellite, PBS continues to use this method of distribution but they have switched to DVB-S2 and H.264.
We started with BBC One and BBC Two simulcasts (with 16:9 SD content broadcast full height rather than letterboxes into 4:3) and launched BBC News 24 (a 24 hour 16:9 SD news service) and BBC Choice (a low-ish budget additional channel - which became BBC Three). BBC Knowledge (which became BBC Four) and CBBC (which was CBBC on Choice originally) and CBeebies launched a bit later. BBC Parliament (kind of the UK CSPAN) launched audio-only, then 1/4 screen video ,and eventually became a full-service. We also broadcast the national BBC radio stations on DVB-T as well (surprisingly popular)
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We did procure our own HD-Cams and encoders not long afterwards and by the early 2000's we had procured a hybrid SD/HD mobile unit.
We were Philips LDK 100 and Thomson 1657 SD 16:9 system cameras in studio (and later Sony BVP-E30), but mainly Sony 16:9 system cameras for outside broadcasts, with DigiBeta and DVCam VTRs along with Profile servers. We went 16:9 SD pretty quickly. HD took a lot longer. HD started in 2006 and is still not fully complete (but outside daytime we're pretty universally HD now outside regional news. A lot of National and International News is HD - certainly on the BBC)

The BBC no longer have an in-house Outside Broadcast (aka Mobile) dept. but they did back in the mid-00s. The first BBC HD truck started off analogue PAL, was upgraded to SD component, and then upgraded again to HD component. The speed of change in tech outpaced the lifetime of a decent coach build and air con! Sadly the company that bought the BBC OB (Mobile) division has decided to close it's OB/Mobile division at the end of March after failing to secure enough contracts. Truly the end of an era. 1936-2014...
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post #23 of 24 Old 02-01-2014, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Interesting.

Ron, just curious, noticed you do a lot of RF work, have you switched from video compression engineering to RF engineering? If so, what field?

Just having a lot of fun with SDR (and Linux). My RF background is from amateur radio. The bladeRF is also capable of sending an ATSC signal. Here's what it looks like on the spectrum analyzer sending on cable channel 58 (which is within the 70cm ham band).

atsc58.png

Ron

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post #24 of 24 Old 02-03-2014, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post


Just having a lot of fun with SDR (and Linux). My RF background is from amateur radio. The bladeRF is also capable of sending an ATSC signal. Here's what it looks like on the spectrum analyzer sending on cable channel 58 (which is within the 70cm ham band).

......

Ron

Fellow GNURadio, BladeRF user here and I have trialed both ATSC and DVB-T as well. I'm actually developing an open alternative to HD Radio which has had some impressive results. (DRM30 as opposed to whatever Ibiquity's OFDM thing). 

 

I'm curious as to how much alteration it would take to make DVB-T2 happen? I've been working with H265 and Opus and would love to run some tests over the 2-4Mhz RF bandwidth ranges. If ATSC at 6mhz can pass H.264 and AAC+ quite well, it would be something to see what more efficient bandwidths can do. If I can be of any help making that happen, PM me and we can work something out. 

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