U.S. Broadcasters Diss 4K - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 174 Old 03-16-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rudy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 3,221
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Looks like they're in no rush to replace the current standard despite the work being done on ATSC 3.0:

http://hometheater.about.com/b/2014/03/15/u-s-broadcasters-diss-4k-while-japan-sees-8k-future.htm
Rudy1 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 174 Old 03-16-2014, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Best line: "keep in mind that ABC and its network partners currently broadcast in 720p". Yeah, who needs any higher resolution than that?

Besides higher resolution, 4K also brings Rec 2020 which greatly expands the color gamut. This is why I think broadcasting is now going to fall behind other delivery systems and become the AM radio for distribution. ATSC 3.0 is not backwards compatible to the current system, and I doubt with shrinking broadcast spectrum that simultaneous transmissions will be made. Comcast is the one with more to gain with 4K, so maybe, like the transition to color, NBC will lead the broadcasters via cable & streaming.
TVOD is offline  
post #3 of 174 Old 03-16-2014, 05:43 PM
Member
 
sdowney717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
'ATSC 3.0 is not backwards compatible to the current system'

you got your answer, 4k is not needed,
1080 is a very good picture quality..

Look how long and how delayed the HDTV transition took, and we are just in it for a few years now.

Anyway, where does it stop?, 4k?, no then you will say we need 8k then 16k,, it just never ends.
sdowney717 is offline  
post #4 of 174 Old 03-16-2014, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rudy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 3,221
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 117
TVOD,

It is interesting that you should mention Comcast because the trade media reported some months ago that they conducted tests of 4K broadcasts on their system back during the London Olympics.
Rudy1 is online now  
post #5 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 05:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 31
With so many OTA customers being perfectly happy with a converter box feeding an old analog set via RF, why would broadcasters be in any hurry to completely start over on something else?

Until the programming catches up, maybe a better alternative would be to simply enable a "spare" TV channel in each market for special events...but, even that is unlikely, with the looming "Spectrum Repack". Maybe it's time for broadcasters to move to a different kind of licensing, where each market has a common transmission site (run by a common "Transmission Provider"), and multiplex channels on an as-needed basis.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #6 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post

'ATSC 3.0 is not backwards compatible to the current system'

you got your answer, 4k is not needed,
1080 is a very good picture quality..

Look how long and how delayed the HDTV transition took, and we are just in it for a few years now.

Anyway, where does it stop?, 4k?, no then you will say we need 8k then 16k,, it just never ends.
It's funny to hear how long most people thought the HD transition took, but it was much longer from its inception. I first saw HD in 1981 as purely experimental. It was nice but was predicted to fail as no one really needed that at home. I heard that pretty much up to ATSC broadcasting in 1998. Now HD is mainstream. The big breakthroughs were digital compression and solid state imagers (CCD & CMOS). Hard to believe now the early stuff was all analog recording on open reel 1" from tube pickup cameras (I think Saticons). Now compression techniques are improving with HEVC (h.265), much improved imaging which should finally kill film (some think the Red Dragon has), upgradeable systems at home via software and all with steadily declining prices. I have said 4k will come quicker than most expect and have wondered (tongue-in-cheek) when the Is Your Local News In 4K thread will start.

Cameras with 8k or higher resolution will improve 4k further, much like 1080 cameras improved SD (and 720p for that matter). Screen sizes common now are already straining HD resolution. 80" or more could be the new norm. 4k movies from services like Netflix may truly be a threat to the survival of theaters.

8K, 16K, 1M? Obviously there are limits to even the best vision, but even with 4k I think we have a ways to go. When I stop seeing excessive detail enhancement used I know we're getting close. It surprises me to see some outlines on 8K demo material. But I should stop here before going off on a tangent about good vs bad detail processing biggrin.gif
Randomoneh and jhughy2010 like this.
TVOD is offline  
post #7 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 11:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

Maybe it's time for broadcasters to move to a different kind of licensing, where each market has a common transmission site (run by a common "Transmission Provider"), and multiplex channels on an as-needed basis.
Even with rising provider fees, most viewers still receive their TV from them. They will probably start sending 4K channels, especially if Comcast begins to do so. Even before ATSC 3.0, broadcasters could join the 4K party with direct feeds to the providers as well as streaming. While ATSC 3.0 holds a lot of promise, I don't see an effective way to transition individual channels.. Another government subsidy doesn't seem likely. Perhaps a common OTA 4K service might work, but mainly for those with deeper pockets.
TVOD is offline  
post #8 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 12:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
bac522's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Comcast network is strained as it is which is why they compress the hell out of 1080i signals...not sure how they will fit in 4K on a coax infrastructure that is already maxed out today without doing some serious infrastructure upgrades...IE running fiber to homes instead of coax. As for 4K in general can one really see the difference? I haven't seen 4K yet, so I don't know. My understanding is it helps on an 80" screen but not on smaller screens and if that's the case then what's the sense. The majority of homes in America can't really accommodate an 80" as they are just too big for the room.
bac522 is offline  
post #9 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rudy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 3,221
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bac522 View Post

Comcast network is strained as it is which is why they compress the hell out of 1080i signals...not sure how they will fit in 4K on a coax infrastructure that is already maxed out today without doing some serious infrastructure upgrades...IE running fiber to homes instead of coax. As for 4K in general can one really see the difference? I haven't seen 4K yet, so I don't know. My understanding is it helps on an 80" screen but not on smaller screens and if that's the case then what's the sense. The majority of homes in America can't really accommodate an 80" as they are just too big for the room.

I saw the Sony 84" UHDTV about a year ago, and I had to sit about seven feet from the screen to be able to tell the difference (there was a 1080p 55" HDTV next to it). The colors and the contrast ratio seemed so much more improved on the 4K set....so much so that everything just looked a lot more "real". Especially in outdoor scenes shot at eye-level...everything appeared so three-dimensional I felt like I could walk right into the image. Sports will definitely benefit the most from the added color depth and increased resolution...one clip from a soccer match was so clear you could read the names of the players on their uniforms.

But as you pointed out, Comcast is definitely going to have to make extensive improvements in their infrastructure in order to be able to handle the bandwidth requirements. They're bound to charge extra (at least initially) for any 4K channels they may carry, and subscribers are just not going to pay if they cannot see the difference.
Rudy1 is online now  
post #10 of 174 Old 03-17-2014, 01:54 PM
Senior Member
 
jqmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bac522 View Post

Comcast network is strained as it is which is why they compress the hell out of 1080i signals...not sure how they will fit in 4K on a coax infrastructure that is already maxed out today without doing some serious infrastructure upgrades..

^+1 and

Comcast is not in the business of giving you new, better technology; better picture; better anything. They are in the cash flow business (nothing wrong with that) and don't move unless they: see competitive threats that are real, implement technologies that enable them to maintain their regional cable monopolies, expand their business from existing infrastructure (home security, voice, etc.) or sell more ads, VOD, on boxes in additional rooms.
jqmn is offline  
post #11 of 174 Old 03-18-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rudy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 3,221
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Meanwhile, Japan moves ahead with its goal to begin 8K broadcasts in time for the Tokyo Olympics in 2020:

http://www.tvbeurope.com/main-content/full/nhk-to-demo-8k-wireless-first/gl02#.UyhxYPldUlJ
Rudy1 is online now  
post #12 of 174 Old 03-19-2014, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
By 2020 I suspect 8K (or higher) may be fairly common for feature and possibly TV episodic production. 8k really does a need a larger display to be advantages, but 8K imaging should help 4K and possibly 1080 sharpness. Bottom line though is broadcasters will probably be last to move to 4k, so I don't expect them to embrace it now. Streaming or download services will probably be early adopters, and with 4k sets decreasing quickly in price, they may have an audience that will grow much faster than HD did. While Comcast, like other providers, are currently bandwidth constrained, as a major content provider now it should be interesting to see if they offer some limited 4k services such as premium VOD or sports. 4k desktop and notebooks are coming out, how long till we have 4k tablets?
TVOD is offline  
post #13 of 174 Old 03-19-2014, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Rudy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 3,221
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

By 2020 I suspect 8K (or higher) may be fairly common for feature and possibly TV episodic production. 8k really does a need a larger display to be advantages, but 8K imaging should help 4K and possibly 1080 sharpness. Bottom line though is broadcasters will probably be last to move to 4k, so I don't expect them to embrace it now. Streaming or download services will probably be early adopters, and with 4k sets decreasing quickly in price, they may have an audience that will grow much faster than HD did. While Comcast, like other providers, are currently bandwidth constrained, as a major content provider now it should be interesting to see if they offer some limited 4k services such as premium VOD or sports. 4k desktop and notebooks are coming out, how long till we have 4k tablets?

It's funny you should mention desktop computers...I have a late 2012 Mac Mini and a 2014 Windows 7 computer both feeding a 3840 x 2160 (30 Hz) signal to a Seiki 50" display. Don't think I could ever go back to a 1080p desktop on either OS. smile.gif
Rudy1 is online now  
post #14 of 174 Old 03-19-2014, 05:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Interesting thread.

I suspect that because OTA is less dominant in the US than it is in other countries, development of OTA is less likely?

Here in Europe OTA is still a major force (in the UK more people watch TV OTA than any other delivery system) we're already on our second generation digital broadcasting standard for OTA, though at the moment often simulcasting SD on the old standard and HD in the new standard. However as more people migrate to the new standard, we will be able to transition fully. Whether this will allow more bandwidth to be used for 4K - or whether mobile broadband will continue to reduce the broadcast spectrum is another matter.

4k is entirely feasible with current DVB-T2 modulation (and is being trialled in Korea for 4k - where the US ATSC 8VSB system is used for HD) if H265/HEVC compression is used AIUI. You may even be able to get two 4K services into a single DVB-T2 Mux (40Mbs) We currently carry 5 1080i HD services (using H264/AVC encoding) in a 40.25Mbs 8MHz DVB-T2 mux in the UK, with generally OK picture quality (not perfect, but not as bad as some 1080i MPEG2 I've seen OTA in the US).
sneals2000 is online now  
post #15 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

(not perfect, but not as bad as some 1080i MPEG2 I've seen OTA in the US).
Sad thing is OTA is still usually significantly better than after the rate shaping or re-encoding by most providers. Even CBS, the last hold out for full bandwidth 1080i on their owned stations, now allows subchannels. It wouldn't surprise me to see more 720p even on stations sourcing from 1080i networks. In fact, why not just go with widescreen SD as more subchannels in the US are doing. Viewers can't tell the difference as long as it fills their screen, right? If it were up to the Feds, TV broadcasting would be eliminated to sell off the spectrum to wireless providers.- so much for "public airwaves".

Netflix, Amazon, M-GO and YouTube are or will be providing 4K. No wonder Netflix is making deals for direct distribution to ISPs with 4K House Of Cards.
TVOD is offline  
post #16 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 10:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

In fact, why not just go with widescreen SD as more subchannels in the US are doing. Viewers can't tell the difference as long as it fills their screen, right? If it were up to the Feds, TV broadcasting would be eliminated to sell off the spectrum to wireless providers.- so much for "public airwaves".
We're going in the opposite direction. When the US went HD in 1998, we went 16:9 SD. HD really took another 8 or so years to begin to be sensible for Europe - by which time we'd improved the modulation to allow more than double the data payload to be carried and improved encoding to allow content to occupy around half the bitrate. However as HD has launched the picture quality on SD channels is no longer a prime concern it seems, and it has definitely dropped. Quite a few broadcasters have switched from 720x576 to 544x576 16:9 I think...

The BBC 'digital only' channels, which launched on digital TV, alongside the simulcasts of the analogue stations, have recently started simulcasting HD (though with a reduced coverage area) We even have SD channels launching on the newer modulation scheme and encoding - as it is more cost effective (as you take up less RF bandwidth)
Quote:
Netflix, Amazon, M-GO and YouTube are or will be providing 4K. No wonder Netflix is making deals for direct distribution to ISPs with 4K House Of Cards.

Yes - though they are still at the low end of the quality scale for bitrates aren't they? I know of one UK broadcaster which won't drop below 13Mbs H264 for their 1080i sports channels on satellite. (That's roughly equivalent to 26Mbs MPEG2?)
sneals2000 is online now  
post #17 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 11:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Yes - though they are still at the low end of the quality scale for bitrates aren't they? I know of one UK broadcaster which won't drop below 13Mbs H264 for their 1080i sports channels on satellite. (That's roughly equivalent to 26Mbs MPEG2?)
From what little I've have from Youtube and elsewhere, it seems bitrates are around 12-20 Mbs. There is some blocking on some material in the chroma, but the Y resolution is noticeably better than HD.

HEVC is just starting, and that should help out. We'll know that has become an obsolete codec when US broadcasters are using it. Should be interesting to see how hardware support evolves, especially on mobile devices. The 4K demos from the upcoming S5 look better than I expected. But what about 4K displays on mobile? Too much? Maybe not. Not quite 4K but getting there.
TVOD is offline  
post #18 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 11:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 10,132
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 663 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Most US broadcasters can't even do decent quality 1080i. Why would anyone think they'd be interested in 4k?
Stereodude is online now  
post #19 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
They would if they could charge ads by the pixel.
TVOD is offline  
post #20 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 02:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
jhughy2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: California
Posts: 954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Interesting thread.

I suspect that because OTA is less dominant in the US than it is in other countries, development of OTA is less likely?
 

You've hit the nail on the head... frankly I just don't understand it.  I recently "cut the cord" from the beastly Comcast.  I have sooo many friends and family that hardly watch TV and they continue to subscribe to Comcast or ATT Uverse.  These companies are genius' in how they convince people to subscribe and their tactics to keep subscribers.  

 

The people that I know that want to cut the cord don't really understand that their is an alternative.  It's almost like people missed the "memo" that OTA going digital was going to improve signal quality and make things incredible for all.  I specifically remember the media and they way they handled the digital switch.  I believe it caused a lot of people unwillingly to switch to cable.  

 

When I put up my antenna this year my friends and family had no idea that OTA was as good as it is.  There are at least three of my friends and family members going through the process of cutting the cord because they saw how good OTA was at my place.  I am helping a friend tomorrow morning assemble his Winegard HD8200u... long story short, people here in the U.S. just don't understand OTA like people do overseas.  There needs to be more antenna installers here IMO.  


Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
jhughy2010 is online now  
post #21 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 03:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
I think part of that is the US is still using upper VHF which may require a larger antenna while many others are UHF only. Also DVB-T using OFDM better allows a single-frequency network to fill in reception areas whereas in the US one central transmitter for a given station is used (although satellite transmitters on a different frequency are used). In fact, the entire model is different with local affiliates vs.regional stations.

There's often more resistance to erect an outdoor antenna with home-owner associations, condos and apartments even though it's usually a legal right. Finally, the cable/sat environment offered so much more programming before digital, especially in smaller areas. You still need that to watch one's favorite political pundit opinionated news observer. Even though I don't like the trade-off with main HD channel qulaity, sometimes I like a station's subchannel more than their main one. Many are "classic TV" now.

If 4k becomes popular, the providers may be the only avenue for broadcasters to utilize before something like ATSC 3.0 becomes reality. Sometimes I wonder how many broadcasters keep their OTA just to ensure their channel number on cable/sat.
TVOD is offline  
post #22 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 04:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Jetmeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 487
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

It's funny you should mention desktop computers...I have a late 2012 Mac Mini and a 2014 Windows 7 computer both feeding a 3840 x 2160 (30 Hz) signal to a Seiki 50" display. Don't think I could ever go back to a 1080p desktop on either OS. smile.gif

30hz, try playing a game or watching sports on that................seriously ?

4k will be a long long time getting into joe six packs home.

Sat, cable and OTA broadcasters are not about to spend bilions more

when they just did that for HD.

There was a substantial diff between sd and HD, thats not the case with 4k.

I have seen side by side comparisons with my own eyes and read countless reviews by those in the know.

Not needed and not wanted..............4k is a joke. Tv manufacturers trying to oversell like 3d.

These cheap ass Korean or etc sets sure will come into the market but good luck ever watching something in NATIVE 4K.

These are upconverting sets period and will be for the forseeable future.

Upconverting a 1080P signal MAY be ok.......but you are still asking the tv to CREATE a lot of info.

We still have a lot of channels in sd and 720, ever seen them upconverted just to 1080P ?

Yeah there is your answer...............lack of content, cart before the horse...............its a load of crap.
Jetmeck is offline  
post #23 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

Yeah there is your answer...............lack of content, cart before the horse...............its a load of crap.
4K is a common feature production standard, so there is quite a bit of it. Also the technology change from HD to 4K is much less than from SD to HD. Live 4K is more of a challenge, but 4K VOD should not be a major barrier. 4K panels may start creeping in just for standard HD sets as the manufacturing costs decrease. Besides resolution, 4K can take advantage of the wider gamut that new displays offer. HD is still more constrained than the original 1953 NTSC gamut.

Comparing 4K to HD largely depends on the source material. Image acquisition keeps improving. I've heard every increment of technology downplayed, especially HD. If the viewers only had studio quality SD, they would never need anything more. Where are those voices now? One that I did doubt was home 3D because of the need for glasses and the issue with constant eye focus on a flat plane causing eye strain. Might be good for games though. Maybe it will make another run in the 4K or 8K era.

And through it all, AM radio still thrives.
TVOD is offline  
post #24 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 05:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post

You've hit the nail on the head... frankly I just don't understand it.  I recently "cut the cord" from the beastly Comcast.  I have sooo many friends and family that hardly watch TV and they continue to subscribe to Comcast or ATT Uverse.  These companies are genius' in how they convince people to subscribe and their tactics to keep subscribers.  

The people that I know that want to cut the cord don't really understand that their is an alternative.  It's almost like people missed the "memo" that OTA going digital was going to improve signal quality and make things incredible for all.  I specifically remember the media and they way they handled the digital switch.  I believe it caused a lot of people unwillingly to switch to cable.  

When I put up my antenna this year my friends and family had no idea that OTA was as good as it is.  There are at least three of my friends and family members going through the process of cutting the cord because they saw how good OTA was at my place.  I am helping a friend tomorrow morning assemble his Winegard HD8200u... long story short, people here in the U.S. just don't understand OTA like people do overseas.  There needs to be more antenna installers here IMO.  

This side of the pond you take for granted that a house or flat (apartment) you buy would have a rooftop (or decent loft) aerial (antenna) or TV distribution system. You may also have a satellite distribution system - but this would be in addition (though may be over the same cabling) Our satellite / OTA split is a little different though - as we have a non-subscription satellite service that duplicates most of the OTA digital services (to cover areas which don't have terrestrial coverage)

You expect to be able to buy a TV, plug it into a socket on the wall, and watch TV. No subscription. No fuss. I guess the fact we have a totally different TV ecosystem also makes a major difference. Here the BBC, a public service broadcaster, still runs the most-watched TV channel, and takes a larger share of viewing across its channels than any other broadcaster does with their channel groups. This isn't unique to the UK - it's quite common across Europe. (Most larger European countries have a subscription-free satellite service that duplicates OTA)
sneals2000 is online now  
post #25 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 05:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

I think part of that is the US is still using upper VHF which may require a larger antenna while many others are UHF only. Also DVB-T using OFDM better allows a single-frequency network to fill in reception areas whereas in the US one central transmitter for a given station is used (although satellite transmitters on a different frequency are used). In fact, the entire model is different with local affiliates vs.regional stations.

There's often more resistance to erect an outdoor antenna with home-owner associations, condos and apartments even though it's usually a legal right. Finally, the cable/sat environment offered so much more programming before digital, especially in smaller areas. You still need that to watch one's favorite political pundit opinionated news observer. Even though I don't like the trade-off with main HD channel qulaity, sometimes I like a station's subchannel more than their main one. Many are "classic TV" now.

If 4k becomes popular, the providers may be the only avenue for broadcasters to utilize before something like ATSC 3.0 becomes reality. Sometimes I wonder how many broadcasters keep their OTA just to ensure their channel number on cable/sat.

Yep - in many European countries, rooftop aerials/antennae are just 'the norm'. I'd be very surprised if any house or flat I bought didn't have a decent aerial/antenna and outlet in the main living room (and a bit annoyed if it didn't have one in the bedrooms as well) I guess because it's such a dominant platform in many (but not all) European countries, its in the interest of broadcasters to ensure it avoids being 'the poor relation' to cable and satellite in quality terms. Hence the UK pushing DVB-T2 (our second gen digital modulation standard) through very quickly.
sneals2000 is online now  
post #26 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 05:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

30hz, try playing a game or watching sports on that................seriously ?

4k will be a long long time getting into joe six packs home.

Sat, cable and OTA broadcasters are not about to spend bilions more

when they just did that for HD.

There was a substantial diff between sd and HD, thats not the case with 4k.

I have seen side by side comparisons with my own eyes and read countless reviews by those in the know.

Not needed and not wanted..............4k is a joke. Tv manufacturers trying to oversell like 3d.

These cheap ass Korean or etc sets sure will come into the market but good luck ever watching something in NATIVE 4K.

These are upconverting sets period and will be for the forseeable future.

Upconverting a 1080P signal MAY be ok.......but you are still asking the tv to CREATE a lot of info.

We still have a lot of channels in sd and 720, ever seen them upconverted just to 1080P ?

Yeah there is your answer...............lack of content, cart before the horse...............its a load of crap.

This side of the pond it's satellite pay-TV providers really pushing 4K tests. They want another 'next big thing' after 3D failed to take-off, to ensure they keep subscriber numbers up (and to also increase revenue - they still charge a premium for HD service, but they can't do that for much longer - it's the norm now)

All new large mobile production trucks being built are 4K-ready - and there are at least 3 4K capable trucks running in the UK already (Telegenic, CTV and NEP Visions)

Upconversion of good 1080i (or 1080p in a 1080i wrapper) to 4k should be reasonably good, and all the BIG channels over here (main terrestrials, and the premium movie and sport channels) are in decent quality HD. You're right, you don't want to watch low bitrate SD unconverted to 4K...

However until we get a decent 4k broadcast standard AND interconnect standard (3840x2160@60p 4:2:0 8 bit minimum - though 120p and 4:2:2 10 or 12 bit could happen for broadcast and 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 12 bit is likely to happen for interconnect) I wouldn't buy a 4K set...

The first sources are going to be 24p scripted drama delivered via IP though. The shows are already being shot 2160/24p (though not always post produced at that resolution), and IP distribution is feasible now.
sneals2000 is online now  
post #27 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 06:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

However until we get a decent 4k broadcast standard AND interconnect standard (3840x2160@60p 4:2:0 8 bit minimum - though 120p and 4:2:2 10 or 12 bit could happen for broadcast and 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 12 bit is likely to happen for interconnect) I wouldn't buy a 4K set.
Cheaper 4k sets are likely to trade off more important qualities such as colorimetry, black levels, scaling, etc. But a larger screen, say 80", of equal quality but not a huge premium for 4K vs HD may be worth it just to lessen the visibility of the pixel structure on HD. But still, we need those early adopters to keep things moving, though I wonder how many of those $10K+ 50" plasmas with 1024 x 1024 are still around. 32" SD CRTs were over $1K, now a HD 32" is something you put in the shopping cart for the bedroom. I don't think it will be all that long before we're watching 4K tablets.

It's funny how broadcasters led the way for HD in the US, largely in part due to producers who foresaw HD syndication and provided HD material before widespread HD viewing. Times have changed. In the past one industry that has had some success in predicting the viability of new video technology has been the adult film industry. I wonder how that will go? Now there's some demo material to show off to the neighbors. It's like looking though a window, so you don't have to.
TVOD is offline  
post #28 of 174 Old 03-20-2014, 06:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wuther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 34
They were dragged kicking and screaming into HD so this is no surprise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Interesting thread.

I suspect that because OTA is less dominant in the US than it is in other countries, development of OTA is less likely?

OTA is not talked about at all from media 'experts' (and especially not from salesmen) in NA but statistics show it has a growing and sizable chuck of tv content watchers and there are a ton of OTA channels throughout NA. I grant you the EU has better pq OTA from what I can tell.
wuther is offline  
post #29 of 174 Old 03-21-2014, 01:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

They were dragged kicking and screaming into HD so this is no surprise.
OTA is not talked about at all from media 'experts' (and especially not from salesmen) in NA but statistics show it has a growing and sizable chuck of tv content watchers and there are a ton of OTA channels throughout NA. I grant you the EU has better pq OTA from what I can tell.

Yes - I think that the rise of IP delivered VOD stuff like Netflix, Hulu etc., plus the economic circumstances that many people are still dealing with, have meant cable/satellite subscriptions are less important to some families.

For info - this is a breakdown of UK viewing. http://www.a516digital.com/2013/04/75-of-uk-households-use-freeview-but.html sourced from here : http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/other/tv-research/dtv/dtv-q4-2012/

This suggests that 75% of UK homes watch OTA, and 40% watch OTA as their only source of TV.

54% of homes have some form of pay-TV subscription : 37% of homes have pay satellite, 13% of homes have pay cable, and 3.4% are using IPTV (which is live TV over IP). (As you can see cable is far less popular over here than in the US)
sneals2000 is online now  
post #30 of 174 Old 03-21-2014, 01:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 146
It's simple. US OTA broadcasters are still far more interested in multi-casting than they are in HD. Now, add in the fascination with the "mobile DTV" pipe dreams and you should have a clearer picture of what goes through the typical TV exec's head: More "channels" (billboard space,) not better picture quality.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
Reply HDTV Technical

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off